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Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

Rule change?

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Do we then have to worry about the definition of open and closed? As I recall the rule voted on by the TGs was to make that debate a thing of the past.

Look in the RO1 glossary. Open and Closed are defined.

 

Stan

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Wow

That about all that I can say about it

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Brother King...

 

Remember in WBAS that there is no penalty for leaving an empty case/hull in an open long gun either

 

Folks may not infer that from the rules you quoted.

EGGGGGZZAAACKERLY! works just freakin' fine, too

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I don't think it was about open or closed, I think it came from springs so light that a toggle type rifle wouldn't stay open if restaged vertically...

 

imho that isn't worth a cup of coffee, or a stick of gum....

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Look in the RO1 glossary. Open and Closed are defined.

 

Stan

I haven't had a problem understanding the definitions. Can't say that's the case for everyone.

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Uh oh! Are we now having to provide a definition similar to what the definition "is" is.

 

I suggest that the ROC, which includes members of the WB, be given time to consider the controversy over the new wording before we comment further.

With all due respect to all "management", many of us have shoots this coming weekend.

I have only about 40 shooters that will be at the match and my email is buzzing with questions that have no good answer.

Smokestack will probably have 150 shooters at his next shoot and I don't want his job.

If you think the SASS wire is confused then try and answer the rank and file questions and make sure everyone is treated equally.

I don't even wish to fathom what the Match Director at EOT is pondering and how he is going to get 30 posses to enforce what ever the rule is now all the same. Methinks that chaos will reign.

If a rule (law) is not clear then it cannot be enforced. We can't simply go on intent because most the of the shooters can read and the words they read must be clear and concise and leaving no doubt. If THIS happens then THIS is the result is what they require.

This vacuum of confusion must be resolved soon or it will be filled with a bad taste of spoiled expectations. And Match Directors are at the tip of this spear. They will make independent decisions that they think is best for their club and it may be difficult to reverse if it isn't in line with SASS policy. This goes for any rule and anything that is inconsistent with that rule. It would be nice to have some leadership but that seems to be lacking. The bible we follow has had the words changed without explanation and somehow God has gone into hiding.

You cannot change a word on page 1 on not take into consideration what effect it will have on page 1 + X.

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Question:

 

How often do YOU (meaning anyone posting their concerns and opinions on the subject) have to deal with CLOSED action long guns during a match??

Either as a match official or as a shooter?

 

As some have already mentioned, it seems that there is WAY too much drama over something that is considered a fairly rare occurrence. I know I've contributed my share in the "back room" and some here on the Wire.

If you have shooter(s) who habitually end up with a closed action long gun, one would think that being PENALIZED under the old rule (either by added time to reopen it or with a MSV+) would have inspired them to take a closer look at their restaging technique.

 

BICBW

 

(not trying to trivialize the concerns...but I believe this is a legitimate question. I doubt that "chaos will reign" at EoT in actual range time...but the ROC & TG meetings should be "interesting" to say the least)

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This past weekend we tried some vertical staging re-stages.

In the four stages shot with that requirement and on my posse alone, we had 7 long gun closures that went as a NO CALL. All were double barrel shotguns. (I personally kept count of these for my own information) We also had one rifle that the butt missed the stand but the barrel was staged safely in the prop with the butt on the ground..

Watching the shooters that had their guns close, they all re-staged by holding the gun by the barrel and the action swung closed due to the weight of the butt as it was being re-staged.

Two of those seven was when I was the shooter. If I were to shoot this weekend I would certainly use two hands and bend over to re-stage the double to avoid the "closed" penalty.

 

I hope this answers your question.

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We had it come up last match at least once, which took a while as nobody happened to have a new copy of the rule book on hand.

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In the past six or seven matches that I have been to and ran the timer in the last two months, i have made the no call under the previous ruling three or four times.

 

Each time it was what I would consider less experienced IE new shooters or those who would normally place in the bottom half of the standings.

 

The usually lost count, hit the trigger for the 11, or 12 time until the finally heard me yelling its empty.

 

These are all people who are having a good enough "time" as it is

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Question:

 

How often do YOU (meaning anyone posting their concerns and opinions on the subject) have to deal with CLOSED action long guns during a match??

Either as a match official or as a shooter?

 

Howdy PW, very, very seldom.................and the TO calls the shooter back to correct it. Why do we need a new,new,new rule to cover this, let's hit the reset button and go back to the way it has always been. It may have been a noble idea to try and not penalize the few times it may happen, but like you said...if it's happening a bunch to one shooter time to look at technique and/or springs. I do see this causing alota confusion. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Geez all I want to know is when is the gun discarded.

 

I run the timer quite often and run into a closed action 1 or 2 times a month. Is that enough to warrant an answer.

 

Stan

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Four little cowboys go to see Santa. Each want a pony for Christmas.

 

The first is a rifle shooter and promises that he always puts down his rifle open and empty...but sometimes it closes. Santa tells him he's a good boy and that he'll get a pony.

 

The second is a '97 shooter and promises that he always puts down his '97 open and empty...but sometimes it closes. Santa tells him he's a good boy and that he'll get a pony.

 

The third is a double shooter and promises that he always puts down his double open and empty...but sometimes it closes. Santa tells him he's a good boy and that he'll get a pony.

 

The fourth is a double shooter and says that he used to put down his double open and empty, but once it fell out of a vertical rack and he got a stage disqualification, so now he shucks his shells, closes it and puts in down. Santa tells him he's a bad boy and all he is getting is a lump of coal.

 

 

All this confusing rewording is over the concern that the fourth little cowboy might forget to shuck his shells...which carries a penalty...sort of like dropping a round and sweeping someone while picking it up does. I suspect the primary concern is that the same shooter could have a makeup, load two, shoot one, forget to shuck and restage their shotgun closed with a live round under the hammer...which carries a penalty also, but if that gun fell out of a vertical rack or off a table, the potential outcome is much more serious.

 

We have an annual match coming up this weekend. We don't have any vertical staging of long guns, so there is no reason to consider intentionally closing a shotgun. If a gun ends up with the action closed at the end of the entire shooting string, the shooter will check the gun to insure clear. If it's clear, no penalty. If it has a spent round in it...we're going to ask the TO to count to ten, do the same with the shooter and check to see if they're wearing Wranglers. :ph34r:

 

The wording could be better. Discarded could be defined. In the meantime, I'm going to take the approach that there are more good cowboys than hardasses and the good cowboys won't tolerate the hardasses.

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Two closed sxs examples last month. On a table no less. No call per the previous pre 'discard' version rules. Shooter was experienced and I do not believe they did it intensionally.

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I almost wish we cud go back ta talkin' bout jeans....... :wacko::wacko: :wacko: :wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko: all this is makin' my head hert......

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If he dropped the gun it wasn't a MSV...it's a SDQ. But as long as that sucker lands on the re-staging prop with the barrel pointed downrange it's a NO CALL no matter how many times it bounced.

]for arguments sake, since it was lonnnnnng ago, the stage description could've said....'make safe'. Then, what he did was legal by your account. Rather hard to argue otherwise,but .... And since we see more and more 'make safe', then if any firearm hits the deck, then they are good to go.Right BK?

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Blaster, I have no ideer what your hypothetical implies. If a firearm hits the deck there are a list of simple tests, right?

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What's the call

1) Shooter is placing open and empty rifle on table, lever closes THEN shooter releases the rifle.

2) Shooter releases open and empty rifle mid air, lever closes when rifle hits table.

3)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 10 rounds and they shot 9.

4)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 9 rounds and they loaded 10.

5)Shooter places open rifle with spent cartridge on carrier on table.

6)Shooter places open and empty rifle in scabbard, releases rifle then rifle slides into scabbard and action closes.

7)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, action closes then shooter releases gun.

8)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, releases gun then the action closes.

9)Shooter places open and empty rifle on table. While retrieving shotgun shooter its the lever of the rifle and closes the action.

 

Is this correct?

1) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

2) NO CALL

3) MSV MSV MISS (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun) (unfired round)

4) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun)

5) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (spent cartridge left in long gun)

6) NO CALL

7) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

8) NO CALL

9) NO CALL

 

 

Stan

 

I would like to see someone of authority answer this so we can copy it for our rule books . I understand at this point who is the authority is a question . I also can't see how we are getting multiple MSVs from one action . That would be like getting a 5 sec for a unfired round and 5 sec for not hitting the target that the round in question was supposed to be fired at . As for how often this comes up is every shoot I have been to including once on my own gun in the last six months . Thanks for your help .

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I would like to see someone of authority answer this so we can copy it for our rule books .

Not until all of the pertinent questions have been answered

 

I understand at this point who is the authority is a question .

When you figure THAT out, please let ME know, too.

 

I also can't see how we are getting multiple MSVs from one action .

Same as the OLD rule regarding overloading a rifle.

One penalty was for the overload (last round in).

Second penalty was for leaving a round in the gun (which would have been the first one loaded)

 

That would be like getting a 5 sec for a unfired round and 5 sec for not hitting the target that the round in question was supposed to be fired at .

Not quite. Two separate actions...failure to open and a round remaining (see above)

 

As for how often this comes up is every shoot I have been to including once on my own gun in the last six months .

Why & how did it happen?

 

Thanks for your help .

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Wow 8 pages!!!! Need to get some more popcorn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

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I would like to see someone of authority answer this so we can copy it for our rule books .

Not until all of the pertinent questions have been answered

I will try

I understand at this point who is the authority is a question .

When you figure THAT out, please let ME know, too.

No way I'll figure that out

I also can't see how we are getting multiple MSVs from one action .

Same as the OLD rule regarding overloading a rifle.

One penalty was for the overload (last round in).

Second penalty was for leaving a round in the gun (which would have been the first one loaded)

I see what your sayn but that example is kinda along the same problem (for me)

That would be like getting a 5 sec for a unfired round and 5 sec for not hitting the target that the round in question was supposed to be fired at .

Not quite. Two separate actions...failure to open and a round remaining (see above)

The rule calls for open AND empty . So if I don't open I'm getting hit and I'm getting another hit for it not being empty ? Breaking one rule but getting two safeties because of over lap ? Or if I open it but it don't empty I'm getting hit for two separate MSVs that overlap ?

As for how often this comes up is every shoot I have been to including once on my own gun in the last six months .

Why & how did it happen?

With me since the new rule was in effect I have never seen my gun hit the table cause I knew I had opened and emptied it . So it hit a side rail on the table . As for all the other closures no one bothered to care cause the rule made it moot as long as it was empty . Thanks

Thanks for your help .

 

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I think I'm gonna throw up! :wacko:

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Proposed (by me) definition of DISCARDED

 

A firearm will be considered DISCARDED when it is re-staged at the designated position and all motion of that firearm has ceased and the shooters hands are no longer in contact with the firearm.

I like this definition because, in effect, it takes it back to the old rule. There is no way the action can close without there being some sort of motion. So even if a ghost does it, motion has not ceased and it is not yet discarded.

 

Which means, all that matters is whether it's closed at the end of the stage.

 

Show of hands, how many of us are here because there's nothing but reruns on?

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no

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don't bother trying to "help", they'll git et done the way they want it....it taint gonna be easy I fear...

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4)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 9 rounds and they loaded 10.

 

4) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun)

 

What about the overloaded rifle?

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...

 

What about the overloaded rifle?

 

What about it?

 

MAY 2011

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If this rule is somehow about safety and proper penalty attribution for failing to open and empty a long gun....

How about this?

 

All long guns are to be "open & empty" PRIOR to being discarded.

A long gun found discarded that is not found "Open" at the conclusion of the STAGE shooting string will be examined by the TO and shooter at the conclusion of the STAGE.

A long gun that is found with either empty casings (appropriate to the firearm) or loaded cartridges contained within will be subject to the appropriate penalties.

A long gun found to be free from empty casings or loaded cartridges will be be considered proof that the firearm was indeed "open & empty" prior to discarding and will be a no call.

A firearm is considered discarded when it leaves physical control of the shooter.

Shooter will have a until the first round from the next firearm to voluntarily correct an "open & empty" issue without penalty.

 

The simple addition of the word "prior" solves everything.

No ones safety is compromised - it is easy to understand and enforce, it brings the rule into compliance with what was voted on by the clubs, TG's and what was advertised as being the rule by the Rule Committee representatives and the CEO of the company.

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I try very hard to stay out of stuff like this and I do mean very hard. BUT why in Sam Heck change something right before the biggest and most important match of the year???? Just doesn't make sense for all this confusion .

Unless someone from the "Powers that Be" makes it very very clear what the NEW ruling is "MY" posse at EOT will run it as voted on at the TG summit. I know Every One has their own take for what the NEW ruling should be, but I'm simple and I want it spelled out by the Big Bosses !!

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