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What's the call - Decocking a pistol before any rounds have gone downrange


Krazy Kajun

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for safety should the timer operator ask for the gun as if it is broken and put the gun in safe condition before handing it back to the shooter to restart the stage.

Maybe a rule change for safety is in order at the next convention.

 

NO, thanks!

 

Not all T/O's are familiar with all types of firearms.

I'll decock my own revolver, thank you.

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Oh gawd...no...why?

 

I mean...how in the world would this make the process more safe???

 

I think in the Larsen case there was a little bit of a mis-communication. If I was holding a cocked gun and was given the ok to restart...seems kinda obvious that decocking is going to take place.

 

One of those funny little grey areas...

 

Phantom

 

 

+1 I agree, <_< what I dont understand is where is the RO/ TO , it's obvious shooter wants to restart and to do this revolver or rifle will have to be reset, one way I look at it is this if shooter wants to stop & restart as a TO I'm really paying attention to shooter so I am watching whats going on if their not going to shoot I want the gun decocked asap not have shooter standing there with a cocked gun that they dont plan on shooting.

 

One thing I was talking to a new shooter about is what to do when you have a problem, seems like folks get shown basics to get them thru a match but not what to do when they have a problem, maybe some of this stuff should be gone over at club shooter meetings.

 

AO

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Had a very similar situation with a squib. It was a very obvious squib and the entire posse yelled "SQUIB"!!! I stopped immediately of course. Cleared the gun right then and there as it was the last gun. There was no round in the barrel. I turned to the RO and said, "Reshoot"?

 

The RO said, "I didn't call squib, they and you did."

 

To which I got a bit testy, "Maybe they shouldn't let you have the timer then."

 

Didn't get a reshoot on appeal since the RO was adamant that THEY didn't call "SQUIB".

 

FYI...I would NEVER expect a shooter to put their eyes, life, gun, etc. on the line because I'm too slow on the line to 'safely assist the shooter through the course of fire".

 

Nor would I EVER expect that given the command to make safe for a reshoot it did NOT include safely dropping the hammer. This may be one of the most bogus MD calls I've ever read, but they happen and you just gotta get over it.....sorta.

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"No" says Allie hanging her head in shame... :blush:;)

That's ok AM...you are "easier on the eyes" than PWB....hold your head high young lady ;)

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After studying on the responses I think I made the right call the first time, SDQ and then reasoned my way out of it...shoulda stayed with my original call. Live and learn.

 

Allie had the shooter asked me if he could have decocked the pistol and I said yes he would have had a live round under the hammer after decocking it. I could have had him to place the pistol on the prop at the firing line and with the pistol pointed down range I could have let him open the loading gate and set the cylinder where it would have resulted in the hammer down on an empty cylinder. As is required at the at the loading table I would check and make sure it was so and then have him holster his pistol and restart. Thinking on it all I'd probably handle it that way should this happen again.

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

Kajun

And IMO, you'd have been advising the shooter into a DQ if he'd complied. A cocked revolver may NEVER leave a shooter's hand, even to change hands... (until it's declared malfunctioning). Depending on type of revolver the steps to return it to safe condition are different, if similar. Unless the gun has malfunctioned, do it ALL before the gun can be re-staged or re-holstered for said restart.

 

As noted by Larsen's experience and other scenarios described elsewhere, sometimes rulings made on the fly "by committee" can border on the ridiculous. And who has the "standing" to question a ruling by the TO? Another shooter? The PM or MD? As in the OP, as a TO, I've questioned my own calls on occasion, and asked for clarification... but, unless the correction is in favor of the shooter, I've NEVER (at least I don't believe I have), changed a ruling. I have had a scorekeeper withhold recording an infraction that I think is due... until such clarification is received, but adding it after the fact? As for changing an allowed restart to a SDQ after the fact? (Actually, a TO that after positively telling a shooter to prepare to restart, watches a shooter de-cock the revolver, proceeds to restart the shooter and assist them thru the course of fire, and upon being asked later, "did you positively indicate to the shooter to de-cock the revolver?", answers in the negative... lower than whale poop).

 

Frankly, where was the "SAFETY" violation in Larsen's case? Drew the firearm... at the proper time and place... apparently without incident large enough to cause a safety violation, cocked it properly, but was interrupted... either by interference with a prop or other party... was given a positive indication to restart... was watched by the TO as he de-cocked and made the firearm safe and ready... followed by, proceeding to shoot the stage safely and in accordance with his capabilities, instructions and all rules and regulations. ONLY THEN, to be informed that he'd made a MAJOR SAFETY INFRACTION?

 

 

"No" says Allie hanging her head in shame... :blush:;)

 

What? Why? It ain't the first time a person has questioned the wording of a rule... and it'll be far from the last. Blind acceptance of the meaning of the written word, when both the interpretation of same by the writer and reader may vary greatly, is foolhardy.

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...

What? Why? It ain't the first time a person has questioned the wording of a rule... and it'll be far from the last. Blind acceptance of the meaning of the written word, when both the interpretation of same by the writer and reader may vary greatly, is foolhardy.

Griff Darlin',

 

It was an attempt at humor. Didn't you see the ;) ?

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS I am saddened about what happened to Larson. It just doesn't seem right to me.

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Griff Darlin',

It was an attempt at humor. Didn't you see the ;) ?

Regards,

Allie

Oy? Mea culpa! Apparently the interpretations of the lowly emoticon can differ between user & viewer... ;):D

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Shooters responsibility. You want to make sure that you are de-cocking under RO supervision, then ask and get a verbal go ahead.

 

As in the case Deuce described, you can't assume that the RO saw you cock the pistol, most times they will have, but not always.

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for safety should the timer operator ask for the gun as if it is broken and put the gun in safe condition before handing it back to the shooter to restart the stage. Maybe a rule change for safety is in order at the next convention.

Heck NO!

Very unsafe.....

LG

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And IMO, you'd have been advising the shooter into a DQ if he'd complied. A cocked revolver may NEVER leave a shooter's hand, even to change hands... (until it's declared malfunctioning). Depending on type of revolver the steps to return it to safe condition are different, if similar. Unless the gun has malfunctioned, do it ALL before the gun can be re-staged or re-holstered for said restart.......(Rest of post removed for brevity)

I was remiss in saying that I would have him decock the pistol prior to setting it on the prop....I assumed that was understood....(yep I see what happens when you assume). I'd never ask someone to stage a loaded cocked gun on a prop.

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I'll be teaching RO1 after the first day of shooting at Breakout at Brock's Gap June 14 in Hoover/Birmingham. I always cover this very thing in all RO classes. It's under the section: How to help a shooter get out of deep Sh!8.

 

And they next thing folks are saying is I've never heard of Breakout at Brock's Gap. That's because it's the first one. Ya'll come! June 14th and 15th, Brock's Gap Training Center. It'll be basic and cheap!

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SDQ - Doesn't matter if rounds have gone down range. Same scenario if you stage a rifle with the hammer cocked. - I'm also frustrated that folks feel the need to wait for PWB. Are the rules so difficult that only ONE person can interpret them.

Last part is funny Joe!

Ringer

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this is why I disagreed, I would have expected the RO to see the pistol was cocked and when the shooter asked to restart would have expected he was asking to decock and would have told him to do so.

 

So, if you do need to de-cock off the clock, make sure you use the precise words, May I de-cock? and nothing else!!!... when I've had to do it I even look back at the timer slightly to make sure he understands what's going on.

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Shooters responsibility. You want to make sure that you are de-cocking under RO supervision, then ask and get a verbal go ahead.

 

As in the case Deuce described, you can't assume that the RO saw you cock the pistol, most times they will have, but not always.

Yeah...no kidding...shooter's responsibility.

 

We know...

 

But...what the heck is the RO looking at when the shooter brought up his pistol and cocked it?

 

Still a bad call in my opinion...maybe to the letter of the "Law"...but just not right.

 

Phantom

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To remove any doubt about the meaning of "positive indication/acknowledgement" this should be replaced with more precise language.

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To remove any doubt about the meaning of "positive indication/acknowledgement" this should be replaced with more precise language.

 

Such as ?

 

Do you mean an absolutely specific phrase (e.g. "Shooter may decock revolver") that MUST be stated in order to avoid the SDQ penalty??

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Such as ?

 

Do you mean an absolutely specific phrase (e.g. "Shooter may decock revolver") that MUST be stated in order to avoid the SDQ penalty??

Shooter must say "MAY I"?

TO must say "Yes you may".

Shooter must say "Thank you".

TO must say "You are welcome".

:unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

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Shooter must say "MAY I"?

TO must say "Yes you may".

Shooter must say "Thank you".

TO must say "You are welcome".

:unsure: :unsure:

 

TO says.. NO!! You didn't say "Captain May I?"

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' that's the way that ol' game went :D:P:D

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I had a very similar situation once with the revolver cocked and the TO suggested I restart. He noticed me moving my thumb to the hammer to decock (I hadn't asked) and immediately said "you may decock." He basically saved my bacon!

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I try to remember to talk to new shooters at some point about decocking and how serious it is. The general rule of thumb is that when on the firing line, decocking doesn't exist period outside of verbal instruction from the TO to do so. You just assume that once it's cocked you are committed no matter what to pull the trigger downrange unless major circumstances force you to ASK if you may decock the gun.

 

That's the easiest way to keep people out of trouble. "When on the firing line, there is only ONE way to avoid a SDQ and that is to ASK FOR PERMISSION."

 

Buffalo Dick, that was a really good TO you had. Really good. Glad he was there for you.

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Hello again,

 

Here's a scenario. Shooter is firing away with the pistol and the TO yells stop because there is someone downrange, walking on the berm, whatever... The shooter stops and the TO says, "go to the ULT (or LT, whichever is most efficient depending on what guns had already been fired) and prepare to reshoot. Shooter decocks and heads to the appropriate table.

 

By the letter of the rule and the interpretations I've seen, this is a SDQ because specific permission wasn't given to decock. In the "heat of the moment" the shooter is just thinking of safety and decocks before walking with the cocked gun. A "reasonable person" (term frequently used in the three law classes I attended) would assume that the "right thing to do was decock" not say, "may I decock first." I think the implication to decock is so strong that it overrides specific words to that effect. :ph34r:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

 

 

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Hello again,

 

Here's a scenario. Shooter is firing away with the pistol and the TO yells stop because there is someone downrange, walking on the berm, whatever... The shooter stops and the TO says, "go to the ULT (or LT, whichever is most efficient depending on what guns had already been fired) and prepare to reshoot. Shooter decocks and heads to the appropriate table.

 

By the letter of the rule and the interpretations I've seen, this is a SDQ because specific permission wasn't given to decock. In the "heat of the moment" the shooter is just thinking of safety and decocks before walking with the cocked gun. A "reasonable person" (term frequently used in the three law classes I attended) would assume that the "right thing to do was decock" not say, "may I decock first." I think the implication to decock is so strong that it overrides specific words to that effect. :ph34r:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

 

 

Golly, you mean people should use common sense?!

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Golly, you mean people should use common sense?!

Common = that which is seen most often

Sense = a level of intelligence

Common + Sense = Sheer Stupidity

 

I much prefer that one demonstrate a certain level of "uncommon GOOD Sense."

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What folks need to remember is that just the act of decocking the gun doesn't necessarily make it safe for movement unless it is shot dry, or indexed to a spent shell of empty cylinder. This isn't something that many of us do on a regular basis while on the line, in my mind part of the intent of the rule is to have two folks, the shooter and the TO paying attention to make sure it's done safely no matter what reason made it necessary.

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Hello again,

 

Here's a scenario. Shooter is firing away with the pistol and the TO yells stop because there is someone downrange, walking on the berm, whatever... The shooter stops and the TO says, "go to the ULT (or LT, whichever is most efficient depending on what guns had already been fired) and prepare to reshoot. Shooter decocks and heads to the appropriate table.

 

By the letter of the rule and the interpretations I've seen, this is a SDQ because specific permission wasn't given to decock. In the "heat of the moment" the shooter is just thinking of safety and decocks before walking with the cocked gun. A "reasonable person" (term frequently used in the three law classes I attended) would assume that the "right thing to do was decock" not say, "may I decock first." I think the implication to decock is so strong that it overrides specific words to that effect. :ph34r:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

 

 

 

 

To me. The RO should be on top of that anyway.

 

STOPPING the shooter. Then TELLING him to de-cock and head to the unloading table or

make guns safe and back away form them until whatever is down range is cleared.

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