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What's the call - Decocking a pistol before any rounds have gone downrange


Krazy Kajun

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This happened yesterday and I was running the timer. First gun in the shooting sequence is the pistol. Shooter draws his pistol and cocks it and then immediately has a brain fade. Before I could tell him which target to shoot first he decocks his pistol. I immediately call a cease fire after he decocked it. My first call was a SDQ because he decocked a pistol without the direction of the TO. The shooter went on to the unloading table...the shooter was fine with the call. A few seconds later someone on the posse asked the question "Should it have been a SDQ if no rounds have gone downrange yet?" I thought about that and agreed that if a round has not gone downrange the stage was not started....so I let him reshoot with no fault.

 

If the shooter had swept someone with a loaded gun on the way to the firing line....the call is MDQ. Safety errors can happen prior to the first round going downrange and a call can be made. Is this particular situation any different?

 

I thought about this on the drive back home trying to reason the correctness of the call so I'm asking the group here what the correct call should have been....did I miss it?

 

Kajun

 

 

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ROI book page 15

 

 

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or
location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line
except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision
of the Timer Operator. (This requires a positive indication/ acknowledgement from the
Timer Operator to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.
Since the shooter did it on his own, I believe this is a stage DQ
If he had asked first or had you told him, I think it would have been OK (see blue print)
--Dawg
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I would have stuck with the first call SDQ. The Rules don't say after the first round goes down range on this "De-cocking a revolver, rifle or hammered shotgun with a live round under the hammer". The shooter did all this prior to your stopping him. You stopped him after the penalty had been earned.

Regards,

Ringer

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ROI book page 15

 

 

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or
location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line
except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision
of the Timer Operator. (This requires a positive indication/ acknowledgement from the
Timer Operator to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.
Since the shooter did it on his own, I believe this is a stage DQ
If he had asked first or had you told him, I think it would have been OK (see blue print)
--Dawg

 

A round had not gone downrange at the time the pistol was decocked.

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KK:

Yes, no round had gone downrange but he was on the firing line, and it was not done under your direct supervision, since you did not know he was going to do it.

 

NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision
of the Timer Operator.
At least, that's how I read the rules.
--Dawg
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A round had not gone downrange at the time the pistol was decocked.

Dropping a gun at the loading table earns a penalty...no rounds down range...showing up to the stage from the LT with the hammer back on one's rifle...penalty earned...no rounds down range...

 

Some penalties are in place regardless of whether a round has gone down range...

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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Don't matter about a round down range or not. He was on the firing line was he not?

 

 

SDQ.

 

Hard lesson to learn. But he will remember as will others that was there.

 

I did this just the other day. Pistol first and pull it and only got to half cock.

Just stopped. Looked at the TO. Asked if I could de-cock and reset.

He said yes. So no problems.

 

Had I not asked?? SDQ

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Krazy,

 

you probably should put Possum or Phantom on your speed dial and call one of them first next time..... :lol:

 

 

SDQ

 

 

..........Widder

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NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision
of the Timer Operator.
--Dawg

 

Yep. Howdy KK, the next time someone on the posse (or you) wants to question a call ask them to referance it in the ROI manual. You do have one on the range with you, right?? Good Luck :)

 

Hopefully the shooter placed the hammer on the empty chamber before holstering and proceeding to the unloading table...

 

(null)

Yep, this is a biggie, hope it was cleared on the firing line :unsure: . If not the shooter was walking around with a live round under the hammer :o

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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First and only time that happened to me was at Guns of August in 2005…….. Result: SDQ!!!!

 

Rye :angry:

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This is easy as Possum said SDQ. If he would of de-cocked as per the rule pointing down range and pulling the trigger the gun would have fired as he had a live round under the hammer. Even just lowering the hammer gives a SDQ as now the hammer would be down on a live round.

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Hi Folks,

 

My interpretation is that the problem was not the cocking; it was the decocking. As a round had not gone down range, if the shooter had stopped after cocking, said, "oh fiddlesticks," and asked the TO what to do, and the TO said decock then restart that would have been okay.

 

I'm not 100% positive on that and would still like to hear what PWB says on the "oh fiddlesticks" scenario.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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ROI book page 15

 

 

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or
location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line
except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision
of the Timer Operator. (This requires a positive indication/ acknowledgement from the
Timer Operator to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.
Since the shooter did it on his own, I believe this is a stage DQ
If he had asked first or had you told him, I think it would have been OK (see blue print)
--Dawg

 

 

+1 SDQ. Shooter De-cocked hammer without TO direction/supervision.

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Hi Folks,

 

My interpretation is that the problem was not the cocking; it was the decocking. As a round had not gone down range, if the shooter had stopped after cocking, said, "oh fiddlesticks," and asked the TO what to do, and the TO said decock then restart that would have been okay.

 

I'm not 100% positive on that and would still like to hear what PWB says on the "oh fiddlesticks" scenario.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

After studying on the responses I think I made the right call the first time, SDQ and then reasoned my way out of it...shoulda stayed with my original call. Live and learn.

 

Allie had the shooter asked me if he could have decocked the pistol and I said yes he would have had a live round under the hammer after decocking it. I could have had him to place the pistol on the prop at the firing line and with the pistol pointed down range I could have let him open the loading gate and set the cylinder where it would have resulted in the hammer down on an empty cylinder. As is required at the at the loading table I would check and make sure it was so and then have him holster his pistol and restart. Thinking on it all I'd probably handle it that way should this happen again.

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

Kajun

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Since PWB hasn't chimed in as yet, I'll add my two cents.

Shooter was under the direct supervision of the TO. TO stopped the shooter instead of directing the target to shoot at (I know that assistance is not TO responsibility).

 

I didn't read in the original thread WHO took the revolver to the unloading table. Shooter - MDQ; hammer now down on a live round.

 

IMHO you can call it a restart (after reindexing the cylinder) or reshoot. No call on the brain fart itself.

 

Barry Sloe

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SDQ - Doesn't matter if rounds have gone down range. Same scenario if you stage a rifle with the hammer cocked. - I'm also frustrated that folks feel the need to wait for PWB. Are the rules so difficult that only ONE person can interpret them.

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Hi Folks,

 

My interpretation is that the problem was not the cocking; it was the decocking. As a round had not gone down range, if the shooter had stopped after cocking, said, "oh fiddlesticks," and asked the TO what to do, and the TO said decock then restart that would have been okay.

 

I'm not 100% positive on that and would still like to hear what PWB says on the "oh fiddlesticks" scenario.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

You have to be really careful about decocking. I received an SDQ at last year's EOT for a similar circumstance. I drew my revolver and it got snagged on something. The TO said to restart. I put the gun on half-cock, indexed the cylinder so an empty chamber would be under the hammer, brought the hammer back to full cock and then lowered it just like you would do at the loading table. All while the TO was looking on. Shot the stage and was putting away my guns when I saw a discussion going on. A few minutes later a couple of members of the ROC asked the TO if he had given permission to restart. He said yes. Then they asked if he had given permission to decock. He said no, I told him to restart. After about 20 minutes of discussion the decision was SDQ. That permission to restart is NOT the same as permission to decock. That there should have been two clear commands. I have seen at virtually every match situations where, for example, someone has the Marlin jam and the TO says "restart." The shooter clears the gun, closes the lever and then decocks. Apparently, that situation should also result in an SDQ unless the TO also gave the shooter permission to decock. If you have a cocked gun that needs to be decocked, make sure you have clear and unequivical permission to decock. "Restart" is apparently insufficient.

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You have to be really careful about decocking. I received an SDQ at last year's EOT for a similar circumstance. I drew my revolver and it got snagged on something. The TO said to restart. I put the gun on half-cock, indexed the cylinder so an empty chamber would be under the hammer, brought the hammer back to full cock and then lowered it just like you would do at the loading table. All while the TO was looking on. Shot the stage and was putting away my guns when I saw a discussion going on. A few minutes later a couple of members of the ROC asked the TO if he had given permission to restart. He said yes. Then they asked if he had given permission to decock. He said no, I told him to restart. After about 20 minutes of discussion the decision was SDQ. That permission to restart is NOT the same as permission to decock. That there should have been two clear commands. I have seen at virtually every match situations where, for example, someone has the Marlin jam and the TO says "restart." The shooter clears the gun, closes the lever and then decocks. Apparently, that situation should also result in an SDQ unless the TO also gave the shooter permission to decock. If you have a cocked gun that needs to be decocked, make sure you have clear and unequivical permission to decock. "Restart" is apparently insufficient.

Hmmm...The TO told you to restart. You can't do that, in this situation, with a Colt, without putting it on half cock, moving the cylinder into the correct position, then decocking. Then, you get a SDQ...

 

I guess that is like when the shooter inserts a shell in the SG, closes the action, and the TO says move to such and such place. You get a SDQ for moving...

 

The following is respectfully submitted:

I'm not so sure I like these interpretations.

The TO should always be obeyed, unless he says something like shoot someone...

For example, the TO sees a person walking on the berm and says stop, you should stop.

I don't think the shooter "in the heat of the moment" should be required to decide which TO commands he should obey and which he should disregard.

BTW, I have seen much inconsistent application in the last situation.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

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You have to be really careful about decocking. I received an SDQ at last year's EOT for a similar circumstance. I drew my revolver and it got snagged on something. The TO said to restart. I put the gun on half-cock, indexed the cylinder so an empty chamber would be under the hammer, brought the hammer back to full cock and then lowered it just like you would do at the loading table. All while the TO was looking on. Shot the stage and was putting away my guns when I saw a discussion going on. A few minutes later a couple of members of the ROC asked the TO if he had given permission to restart. He said yes. Then they asked if he had given permission to decock. He said no, I told him to restart. After about 20 minutes of discussion the decision was SDQ. That permission to restart is NOT the same as permission to decock. That there should have been two clear commands. I have seen at virtually every match situations where, for example, someone has the Marlin jam and the TO says "restart." The shooter clears the gun, closes the lever and then decocks. Apparently, that situation should also result in an SDQ unless the TO also gave the shooter permission to decock. If you have a cocked gun that needs to be decocked, make sure you have clear and unequivical permission to decock. "Restart" is apparently insufficient.

that decision was pure BS! by saying restart that has to be construed as permission.

 

hmmph, I say!!!

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You have to be really careful about decocking. I received an SDQ at last year's EOT for a similar circumstance. I drew my revolver and it got snagged on something. The TO said to restart. I put the gun on half-cock, indexed the cylinder so an empty chamber would be under the hammer, brought the hammer back to full cock and then lowered it just like you would do at the loading table. All while the TO was looking on. Shot the stage and was putting away my guns when I saw a discussion going on. A few minutes later a couple of members of the ROC asked the TO if he had given permission to restart. He said yes. Then they asked if he had given permission to decock. He said no, I told him to restart. After about 20 minutes of discussion the decision was SDQ. That permission to restart is NOT the same as permission to decock. That there should have been two clear commands. I have seen at virtually every match situations where, for example, someone has the Marlin jam and the TO says "restart." The shooter clears the gun, closes the lever and then decocks. Apparently, that situation should also result in an SDQ unless the TO also gave the shooter permission to decock. If you have a cocked gun that needs to be decocked, make sure you have clear and unequivical permission to decock. "Restart" is apparently insufficient.

I must be missing something here Larsen...You couldn't have restarted unless you re-indexed your pistol...that's like saying to little johnny that he can leave the classroom to go potty...but he can deposit anything in the toilet.

 

Phantom

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I must be missing something here Larsen...You couldn't have restarted unless you re-indexed your pistol...that's like saying to little johnny that he can leave the classroom to go potty...but he can deposit anything in the toilet.

 

Phantom

That's what I always thought. Implicit in the command to restart is the authority to do whatever is necessary to get you ready to restart. Most restarts seem to involve muffed shotgun loads at the beginning of a stage so it is usually just a matter of putting your shotshells back in the belt. No cocked gun issue. My sole purpose was to warn people that if their restart involves a cocked rifle or handgun they better make 100% sure they have been given the clear authority to go ahead to decock. In my example, "restart" was not clear enough.

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My bad, my recollection of the event was incorrect, I was there and was the posse leader and had to referee the call at the time. It's hard to keep all the matches together in my brain and I have had to deal with a bunch of unfortunate de-cocking calls in the past couple years. Sorry for the confusion Larsen.

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Hi Folks,

 

My interpretation is that the problem was not the cocking; it was the decocking. As a round had not gone down range, if the shooter had stopped after cocking, said, "oh fiddlesticks," and asked the TO what to do, and the TO said decock then restart that would have been okay.

 

I'm not 100% positive on that and would still like to hear what PWB says on the "oh fiddlesticks" scenario.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

That's a "classic example" of allowing a restart involving decocking (+ reindexing) a revolver.

Be 100% positive that you are correct in your assumption.

 

(I used pretty much the exact same scenario in an RO1 class yesterday)

 

As for the OP...it seems pretty clear that most respondents understand the correct application of the rule.

 

The phrase "once a round has gone down range" refers to the section immediately prior in the sentence (i.e. to avoid the listed penalties)

Decocking during a stage always requires a "positive indication/acknowledgement from the T/O".

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Actually another shooter was the TO and he watched me de-cock the gun. The point is that "restart" was deemed an insufficient command and shooters need to be cautious that the "de-cock" command is clear and unequivical.

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Let me make sure I have this straight...

 

The TO says "restart." The only way to restart us to put the gun on half cock, move the cylinder, and "decock" the gun. Restarting/decocking earns the shooter a SDQ because the TO did not say decock,

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Let me make sure I have this straight...

 

The TO says "restart." The only way to restart us to put the gun on half cock, move the cylinder, and "decock" the gun. Restarting/decocking earns the shooter a SDQ because the TO did not say decock,

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

+1, isn't that scary Allie, we agree!

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Let me make sure I have this straight...

 

The TO says "restart." The only way to restart us to put the gun on half cock, move the cylinder, and "decock" the gun. Restarting/decocking earns the shooter a SDQ because the TO did not say decock,

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator.
(This requires a positive indication/ acknowledgement from the Timer Operator to the shooter).
The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.

 

Is there another way to interpret this rule??
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I agree a SDQ on the original post. But with Larsen , if the facts are as he stated he got a bad call. How can you restart with a holstered pistol with out decocking it and making it safe then re-holstering it ? Or am I missing something ?

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for safety should the timer operator ask for the gun as if it is broken and put the gun in safe condition before handing it back to the shooter to restart the stage. Maybe a rule change for safety is in order at the next convention.

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for safety should the timer operator ask for the gun as if it is broken and put the gun in safe condition before handing it back to the shooter to restart the stage. Maybe a rule change for safety is in order at the next convention.

Oh gawd...no...why?

 

I mean...how in the world would this make the process more safe???

 

I think in the Larsen case there was a little bit of a mis-communication. If I was holding a cocked gun and was given the ok to restart...seems kinda obvious that decocking is going to take place.

 

One of those funny little grey areas...

 

Phantom

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