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Reshoots at monthly matches


Deuce Stevens SASS#55996

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I've seen this scenario written about on the wire more times than I can count. I've just never seen it really happen at a match. EVERY shooter I know can tell the difference between a monthly match and a no alibi state match.

+1000

 

I do so tire of the wire comments that imply shooters are so slow witted that they cannot comprehend the differences between a monthly shoot and Winter Range.

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Certainly a minority...but as Range Master, Posse Marshal and/or Stage Driver for various matches at all levels of competition, I've seen & heard the excuse "...but that's allowed/how we do it at my home club" more than once (including @ WR & EoT).

Sometimes the statement was in the face of a blatant rules violation in regard to equipment or "standard" range behaviors.

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I've seen this scenario written about on the wire more times than I can count. I've just never seen it really happen at a match. EVERY shooter I know can tell the difference between a monthly match and a no alibi state match.

 

so I guess that we can just agree to disagree

I have been shootin since 97

as I have seen it happen to folks

they argue that they would get a reshoot iffen they were at home

 

mileage will always vary

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OK I own the train wreck stage. First shoot first satge jammed the rifle, put it down, jammed the shotgun. Got help clearing them at the unloading table. "Next Shooter." Bad case of stupid me. Trying to go fast and failed to get all the way theu the stroke.

 

A freind offered a well-tuned '73 for the next stage, and ammo. Got thru the pistols and 2nd shot with the rifle had a jam, turned out to be a split case. The good news is I did not use a lot of ammo that month.

 

Next shoot the very experienced lady shooter got off two rounds in the pistol and then a very weak discharge with everyone yelling STOP! Yep, a squib. My turn, one pistol round failed to fire, likely my fault, so shot a lot of nothing until that round returned and fired.

 

No re-shoot was asked for or offerred in any of the above. Some days you get the bear, and some days the bear gets you. Carry on.

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None of the clubs here in central Iowa allow reshoots for mechanical and ammo related reasons unless it's the first shot and nothing goes downrange.

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Certainly a minority...but as Range Master, Posse Marshal and/or Stage Driver for various matches at all levels of competition, I've seen & heard the excuse "...but that's allowed/how we do it at my home club" more than once (including @ WR & EoT).

Sometimes the statement was in the face of a blatant rules violation in regard to equipment or "standard" range behaviors.

 

Yes, there's is always the possibility of an idiot appearing, I suppose, and in my opinion, only an idiot would make such an argument. One of my biggest failings is I HATE STUPID!

 

Most of our laws are because stupid people did stupid things and the rest of us get punished for it.

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Nope not at any clubs I go to..SASS rules apply..however new shooters are sometimes given the opportunity to 'have a go again '

See post 36.....it's OK if you don't but you can't say "SASS rules apply" like it's wrong if you do. It's SASS "rules" either way.

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[quote name="Badfinger & Sassy" post="2813150" timestamp="1391908735"

 

When I'm running the timer at our club I will give one re-shoot per stage and a limit of 2 total per match per shooter. The look on the faces of the shooters is priceless when they know their day is not lost or ruined due to a malfunction and that smile given back makes my day also.

 

Badfinger Bodene

 

Unless I am misreading your post, and I apologize if that is the case, you have just described the scenario that most people would find wrong and objectionable. Reshoots are ONLY fair if available to every shooter on every posse, applying the same rules, and announced at the safety meeting. Your post seems to suggest that you simply take it upon yourself to do this regardless of whether it's being done on other posses or even by other TO's on your posse.

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I've seen this scenario written about on the wire more times than I can count. I've just never seen it really happen at a match. EVERY shooter I know can tell the difference between a monthly match and a no alibi state match.

 

10-4. I ain't the most dedicated SASS shooter when it comes to attending matches, but absolutely get what you are saying here. It isn't rocket science (or even close to it).

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Thanks for the topic, Duece. Three pages and still civil. I love it. The wide range of answers shows there is a lot of variance between clubs, which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. Consistency of application is the key, whatever the policy.

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Had a brand new shooter using borrowed guns having trouble with his rifle ( first gun, 2nd shot) yesterday. We stopped him and asked the TO for a re shoot. I got this email from him last night " Thanks for letting me re-shoot today. That did wonders for my confidence and i am pretty sure i was just jacking up the working of the lever. When i focused on it, no more problem! "

He went on writing about what guns and equipment he needs to buy to play our game.

Nuf said!

Jasper

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It is just like any sport.

The better you are at it, the less rope you get to play with.

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No alibi at our match. First round down range, you bought it.

 

I like having a no alibi monthly match because it encourages shooters to get there equipment in good operating conditions and prepare for a bigger match.

 

If you do get a malfunction, you learn to keep going, not just immediately stop.

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Everyone knows if they are at WR, EOT or a local monthly. Sure that is true.

BUT.

Many don't know the rules. So it does not matter if it is a local or EOT. They do what they are use to doing.

Because that is how it is and they just don't know better.

It's a shame. But it happens.

 

Have never been to a match that announced it at the safety meeting that it was allowed.

 

Glad to hear that many clubs that do allow it. Announce it.

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ok, we will all agree that re-shoots are more geared towards new shooters at monthly shoots

we will agree also that some, if not many shooters, only atend monthly shoots

 

ok, lets say we have two shooters about the same age, and have been in cas for a year +-, and their average ligitimate stages time are pretty much equal

 

"carefull James", works real hard to have good equipment, keep his equipment in better than average condition,, clean, and functioning properly, including his ammo consumed at his montly matchesy

 

"lucky Younger", drinks hard, stays out late, shoots any ammo he can muster from friends or off the ground, his equipment is far less than standard, his guns are as filthy as his long johns, but he dont care cuz he knows he can hit a retart button (often) and he really dont care all that much what folks are sayin bout him

 

after careful james spends a year + doing his thing and checking the scores on the internet, he sees a pattern that concerns him, that lucky younger feller seems to be wooopen up on him, monthly match after match, but he knows that skill wise that this information cant be so

 

the internet scores will NOT tell you a feller had one reshoot, or one reshoot per stage

yet they are out for the whole world to see

 

so in the long run, did the club do either of these fellers any good?

 

fire away

I just put on my flame proof cowboy hat

:blink::ph34r::ph34r::blink:

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OCD James wouldn't be gettin whipped by Drunky Younger if their skill sets were the same. Even with Drunky Younger taking reshoots. The statistics would show the world they were equal. The reshoots can negate the train wrecks of Drunky but not propel him ahead of OCD James. Good story though. The bio of Lucky sounds a lot like me accept I load first rate ammo while in a sober state.

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No alibi at our match. First round down range, you bought it.

 

I like having a no alibi monthly match because it encourages shooters to get there equipment in good operating conditions and prepare for a bigger match.

 

If you do get a malfunction, you learn to keep going, not just immediately stop.

Best reason yet to shoot a "no alibi" monthly. Myself and another shooter have recently talked about making a personal commitment to shoot our monthlies without reshoots for this very reason.

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Howdy JEDI Madd Mike.

 

You post a reasonable thought. But my best guess is that if a local club is allowing LUCKY to have reshoots on every stage, then that is just a local decision and probably will eventually create a club guideline to limit reshoots, with just cause.....Because the membership will start getting alittle tired of this practice.

 

As many have stated, we aren't seeing any blatant abuse of reshoot rules set forth by local clubs.

 

My guess is that smaller clubs probably have a more liberal guideline for reshoots. And big clubs probably have a more retricted guideline for a reshoot or a NO RESHOOT guideline.

Thats just a guess of mine.

 

I think one of the keys to all this is that the local club administers its guidelines fairly across the board...period.

Ifn your gona allow a newby a reshoot, then I think 70 yr old, 10 year SASS Vet should also have those same privileges.

If the 12 year old buckroo gets a reshoot, then so should everyone else, depending upon club guidelines and justifications.

 

Have a good day.

 

 

..........Widder

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reshoots can affect the over all standings of many shooters at a match

some shooters only do monthly shoots, so that is their big match per say

they try their hardest to perform and keep their equipment top notch, like is their WR or EOT

that is all I wish for folks to understand

 

I dont mind em myself for the most part

let have all they want for fun (no score)

 

 

tally hoe

and good morning everyone :D :D

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Yes, there's is always the possibility of an idiot appearing, I suppose, and in my opinion, only an idiot would make such an argument. One of my biggest failings is I HATE STUPID!

 

Most of our laws are because stupid people did stupid things and the rest of us get punished for it.

Sorry Possum, but I've been heavily involved with most of the rules and I RESPECTFULLY disagree with your statement. Most of our laws (rules) in this game are there because a few Smart people do and have done sneaky things trying to take a short cut to the Winner's Circle. They don't want to follow the rules, so they look for a loop-hole.

 

Following the rules is something that should be done at every CAS match. The rules are made to apply to all matches.. both local and State and above. (and yes....there is always going to be some exception now and again) The only reason that you see statements made about State and Above, is because those are the ONLY matches that SASS has any real control over. The rules have always been meant to apply at every CAS match. I believe that everyone would be better off just following the rules the best they can. If they choose other wise, I won't let their local decision stop me from shooting with them, but I think it would be better to just follow the rules.

 

Snakebite

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Why then is there no state and above wording attached to all the other rules? Safety rules, equipment rules, and penalties make no differentiation between local matches and state and above matches. If SASS wanted ALL matches to be no alibi, then leave the "state and above" wording out of the rules. Having that wording in the RULE book begs for the reshoot rules to be applied differently. I'm not promoting reshoots just trying to get clarification.

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Why then is there no state and above wording attached to all the other rules? Safety rules, equipment rules, and penalties make no differentiation between local matches and state and above matches. If SASS wanted ALL matches to be no alibi, then leave the "state and above" wording out of the rules. Having that wording in the RULE book begs for the reshoot rules to be applied differently. I'm not promoting reshoots just trying to get clarification.

I won't try to argue against what you say because I don't disagree with your point, although I don't believe the reshoot rule Begs to be applied differently. No doubt, it should be made clear right up front that the entire rule book applies to all SASS matches. I can only say this... the rules have come about over the last 25+ years a little at a time. They have been added to and subtracted from many times. One of the biggest jobs of the ROC has been to define and clarify the rules..... Why... because in some case they are interpreted differently by the reader... it therefore falls upon the ROC to provide the "Official" interpretation of the rules. The rules are actually pretty good at this point, but IMO they need to be reorganized and in some cases reworded to make them easier for everyone to understand. I would like to see the Shooter's Handbook completely redone... leaving a small book that does nothing other than state the basic rule and applicable penalty for not following the rule. If the reader wanted any further information they would have to refer to the RO Manuals.

 

Snakebite

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I won't try to argue against what you say because I don't disagree with your point, although I don't believe the reshoot rule Begs to be applied differently. No doubt, it should be made clear right up front that the entire rule book applies to all SASS matches. I can only say this... the rules have come about over the last 25+ years a little at a time. They have been added to and subtracted from many times. One of the biggest jobs of the ROC has been to define and clarify the rules..... Why... because in some case they are interpreted differently by the reader... it therefore falls upon the ROC to provide the "Official" interpretation of the rules. The rules are actually pretty good at this point, but IMO they need to be reorganized and in some cases reworded to make them easier for everyone to understand. I would like to see the Shooter's Handbook completely redone... leaving a small book that does nothing other than state the basic rule and applicable penalty for not following the rule. If the reader wanted any further information they would have to refer to the RO Manuals.

 

Snakebite

Thanks for the explanation. "Begs" probably wasn't the best word to use. "Invites" might be better.

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My biggest peeve about reshoots given at monthlies, is that the shooters doesn't go to end of the line. Goes directly from unloading table back to loading table, stopping only long enough to pick ammo from cart. MT

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My biggest peeve about reshoots given at monthlies, is that the shooters doesn't go to end of the line. Goes directly from unloading table back to loading table, stopping only long enough to pick ammo from cart. MT

We shoot any order around here all the time (actually everywhere I shoot from my home club to EOT we shoot in any order) and it never seems to get in the way around here. We are all adults and we all payed our money to be at the match. I don't like being herded or over zealous posse marshals. I am on my time. And I'm respectful of everyone else. Last time I got barked at by a posse marshal I shut down. He got the message and he has not done it since. Seems to be lots of folks with control issues

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We shoot any order around here all the time (actually everywhere I shoot from my home club to EOT we shoot in any order) and it never seems to get in the way around here. We are all adults and we all payed our money to be at the match. I don't like being herded or over zealous posse marshals. I am on my time. And I'm respectful of everyone else. Last time I got barked at by a posse marshal I shut down. He got the message and he has not done it since. Seems to be lots of folks with control issues

Yep!!!!!

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I more often times than NOT:::: see a re-shoot person go right to the front of the loading line just like marshel troop stated

or alteast still jump in line after they get more ammo

true - true - facts around the shoots I have attended

 

I never could figure that part out myself

 

I say at monthly shoots, reshoot all ya want for no score, but line up at the end of the line

 

that is my idea of a simple monthly shoot (re-shoot) fix

 

mileage will always vary

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We shoot any order around here all the time (actually everywhere I shoot from my home club to EOT we shoot in any order) and it never seems to get in the way around here. We are all adults and we all payed our money to be at the match. I don't like being herded or over zealous posse marshals. I am on my time. And I'm respectful of everyone else. Last time I got barked at by a posse marshal I shut down. He got the message and he has not done it since. Seems to be lots of folks with control issues

 

 

 

:)

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I more often times than NOT:::: see a re-shoot person go right to the front of the loading line just like marshel troop stated

or alteast still jump in line after they get more ammo

true - true - facts around the shoots I have attended

 

I never could figure that part out myself

 

I say at monthly shoots, reshoot all ya want for no score, but line up at the end of the line

 

that is my idea of a simple monthly shoot (re-shoot) fix

 

mileage will always vary

If the shooter is a beginner I'd give them the option to reshoot for time, like Jasper Agate stated above....I think it helps the new shooter out. Veteran shooters, if they would like a reshoot for no time I'd say let them do it and let them get at the end of the line to do it.

 

It happened to a well known shooter last month...first stage of the day the shooter came to the line but had not put on their shotshell belt and the RO didn't catch it. Shooter shot the pistols and rifle and then realized there was no shotshells available. There were 6 shotgun targets and two of them were poppers so the shooter was awarded 8 misses on the first stage. The shooter reshot the stage for no time after everyone else had completed their turn. For complete disclosure I was shooting on the same posse and in the same category as this shooter and I still did not have a better match than that shooter....even with a 40 second head start I still got beat :blush:

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Heee Haaa Doots..This post has sure rung out the Hards-Asses and the Nice Cowboys.. :ph34r: So let me throw some Black Powder in the fire :o First let me say I'm all for re-shoots at the Monthly as long as EVERYBODY gets the same .. :) Lets say I'm a seasoned shooter and well known, ;) I just finished my pistol run and had 1 or 2 misses :blush: so when I grab,my Rifle I already KNOW if I short stroke it, It WILL jam. or stove-pipe.. :huh: The first thing I hollor is reshoot..LOL.. :blink: Just Saying..

 

Heeee Haaaa Crazy Mingo :wacko::wacko::FlagAm:

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wow

It has been pretty much said by all, right here on the wire

"brand new shooter, right out the box" give am a reshoot at a monthly match, due to ammo / equip failure

I do not see that as being a hard-hinny

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We shoot any order around here all the time (actually everywhere I shoot from my home club to EOT we shoot in any order) and it never seems to get in the way around here. We are all adults and we all payed our money to be at the match. I don't like being herded or over zealous posse marshals. I am on my time. And I'm respectful of everyone else. Last time I got barked at by a posse marshal I shut down. He got the message and he has not done it since. Seems to be lots of folks with control issues

 

;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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