BP (and BP Subs) smokin' visibility o-pinions

[McCandless]

I've been shooting BP for 'bout 10yrs now, and you figure I'd have the answer to this by now, but I'm going to ask anyway...

Here goes. Here in the sunny South, the summers are thick, humid, and breezeless. Also, I have never had as wide an array of BP and Substitutes on my shelves before... some of which I have never opened.

I've got Goex Cowboy, Diamondback (2F and 3F), Goex Pinnacle (3F), Triple 7 (2F and 3F) and Pyrodex (which I don't care for.)

 

Is there one of these powders, that in your opinion, (this is strictly subjective... I don't think there's been a scientific visibility study done...), is a bit easier to see through in "whiteout conditions". I lean towards Goex myself... I shot Triple 7 for years, and I think it's pretty much an heavy white smoke.

 

By the way, I can't use colored lenses in my glasses... with my corneas starting to show the beginnings of cataracts, my eye doc wants me to wear the darkest sunglasses I can get, with as close to 100% UV protection as I can get. So, dark progressives were prescribed.

 

I'll never shoot fast, (fast and my name don't show up in the same sentence... ever)... but I'd like to shoot a little less painfully slow across the summer.

 

Duc (what's real good at the "bob and weave" lookin' for a hole in the smoke) McC

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

All I shoot is Goex and APP. I have shot Pryodex, which I don't like at all. I think that APP actually produces more smoke than Goex. I absolutely refuse to use any filler or such to cut down the smoke! I guess it's...What you see is what you get.

[McCandless]

Haven't gone the filler route myself either... .38WCF is what I'm shooting. I have tried shooting straight walled cartridges with BP, but the I think the bottle-necks are just soooooo much better.

[J-BAR #18287]

There's this new fangled stuff called "smokey-less powder" for those that don't appreciate obscuring targets...it might catch on, don't know...

[Texas Lizard]

There's this new fangled stuff called "smokey-less powder" for those that don't appreciate obscuring targets...it might catch on, don't know...

I myself have never been into the new stuff...I kinda like tried and proven...You know, keep it simple...You know that new stuff, just will not catch on...

 

Texas Lizard

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Goex or even better Schutzen for the least smoke. The better the charcoal, the more completely it burns, less smoke and easier cleaning. Graf's powder is reported to be repackaged Schutzen.

 

I'd make something myself before I shot Pyrodex again.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Two Spurs]

Hey!- just use a filler and don't put so much powder in it.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

BLACKPOWDER CATEGORIES

It is expected the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke obscured targets.

Howdy

That is from the shooter's handbook. We don't do this because it is easier, we do it because it is harder. It don't get any less humid up here than it does anywhere else. When faced with a whiteout, ya just have to duck and weave to see the targets. For what it's worth, I shoot Schuetzen almost exclusively these days. On a sunny, humid, airless day, I still have to bob and weave to see the targets. It's part of the territory.

[Box Herder, SASS 73857]

I have tried them all and I have gone back to where I started.

 

3F Goex, Big Lube bullets and home made lube.

 

Easier to shoot, clean and see through.........................plus the real aroma!

 

A REAL CROWD PLEASER

[Tom Bullweed]

I shoot Goex FFg in my shotgun and .45 OMVs (cowboy specials). I shoot APP FFFg in my rifles (.38, .357, .38-40) so that I can sue bullets with standard lube. The short pistols barrels do not seem to mind smokeless lube and real BP.

The APP really clouds up if the humidity is high. Cool, damp mornings or hot summer days make for two aimed shots and then a lot of 'there was a target in this area and one over there'.

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

I picked up some Wano 3 Fg last week in a trade. Anyone know how Wano compairs to other black powder?

[McCandless]

 

It is expected the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke obscured targets...

When faced with a whiteout, ya just have to duck and weave to see the targets... It's part of the territory...

 

Yep, I'm real familiar with the "bob an' weave"... been duckin', bobbin' and weavin' fer years. I guess I'll stick with the Goex, got a couple of years-worth of it, I'll use it 'til it's gone, then maybe switch to the Schuetzen.

Just wondered if I could get down to maybe 70+ seconds or so per stage during those conditions instead of 80+

Oh well... back to the reloading press... there's a match a-comin'!

[Slowpoke John]

J S Sooner Wano is like Goex 3F I have load it shotgun

[Lead Ringer]

Goex or even better Schutzen for the least smoke. The better the charcoal, the more completely it burns, less smoke and easier cleaning. Graf's powder is reported to be repackaged Schutzen.

 

I'd make something myself before I shot Pyrodex again.

 

Good luck, GJ

Interesting. I didn't know that about Grafs powder? I've just finished getting my EOT loads ready with some grafs BP I purchased last fall. It was a smokin' price when I bought it:)

Ringer

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

I use APP and I do use filler. It produces a suitably smokey result (much more than some of my competition this past weekend!!)

[Mean Matt McCord, SASS #24683]

I guess this means I have crappy eyesight (which I do), but I have never been able to tell the difference between real BP and the subs as far as the amount of smoke is concerned.

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

I've been shooting BP for 'bout 10yrs now, and you figure I'd have the answer to this by now, but I'm going to ask anyway...

Here goes. Here in the sunny South, the summers are thick, humid, and breezeless. Also, I have never had as wide an array of BP and Substitutes on my shelves before... some of which I have never opened.

I've got Goex Cowboy, Diamondback (2F and 3F), Goex Pinnacle (3F), Triple 7 (2F and 3F) and Pyrodex (which I don't care for.)

 

Is there one of these powders, that in your opinion, (this is strictly subjective... I don't think there's been a scientific visibility study done...), is a bit easier to see through in "whiteout conditions". I lean towards Goex myself... I shot Triple 7 for years, and I think it's pretty much an heavy white smoke.

 

By the way, I can't use colored lenses in my glasses... with my corneas starting to show the beginnings of cataracts, my eye doc wants me to wear the darkest sunglasses I can get, with as close to 100% UV protection as I can get. So, dark progressives were prescribed.

 

I'll never shoot fast, (fast and my name don't show up in the same sentence... ever)... but I'd like to shoot a little less painfully slow across the summer.

 

Duc (what's real good at the "bob and weave" lookin' for a hole in the smoke) McC

When the SASS smoke standard was created a couple of us actually did do a study and one of the elements was target obstruction.

As I recall the least obscuring was Goex Cowboy and next was the 2f of most any manufacture that was used.

Cowboy was going out of production so we settled on 2f for the standard.

However, these tests were done in southern California. The heavy morning air of the deep south has proven to be a different kind of animal so good luck.

[Texas Lizard]

Very good and interesting thread...I'm going to bring up something to the thread...Does the quality of the powder cause a difference in ther amount of smoke?? The standards that are used to manufacture today and that of yesterday are different...So does this make a difference??

 

Texas Lizard

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

When the SASS smoke standard was created a couple of us actually did do a study and one of the elements was target obstruction.

As I recall the least obscuring was Goex Cowboy and next was the 2f of most any manufacture that was used.

Cowboy was going out of production so we settled on 2f for the standard.

However, these tests were done in southern California. The heavy morning air of the deep south has proven to be a different kind of animal so good luck.

Happy Memorial Day to you Rowdy. Long time, no see. I believe I was part of that "BP standard" committe back about nine years ago and shot ammo from Wally (Black Dawge) himself. His was the standard at that time, as you mentioned. The load was the comfortable margin to give smoke but a good standard to compare with and not be "to much smoke". As you mention, testing in CA, NE TX, Ga, AL, or even first rotation at EOT can all get very subjective....but all in all I believe the idea of the standard works. There was always those then,, and now, that shot far more smoke than needed, but that is their choice. Then there was those, including myself, that ran closer to standard., we all have to "fight the smoke" at times when the friendship of the wind has left us.. I still have a good supply of Cowboy Goex but do not find a good supply of the 145 gr SPG bullets that CBG likes in 38. I keep enough to use in rifle and also use the CBG for shotgun in a hefty dose. Because of the bullet thing I have gone to Triple 7 FFg in my revolvers with regular 130 gr MC bullet. I like it, and always have some of the rifle loads to shoot in revolvers if I want a little more "push". Wally is the man I learned most of my black powder savy from and I, as he, use filler with the Goex. As you know, he did know his business of black powder. Black Dawge is now in good hands with Jerry at Powder, Inc. I was fortunate to buy Wallys reloading equipment which was so nice all set-up to load the Team Goex ammo. The set-up was, and still, is so smooth. 1050 with alum hoppers for powder then next station for his specail filler.

 

Am I not correct in remembering that Cowboy Goex was/is merely Goex FFg with more "fines" than standard Goex FFg? I find very little difference in smoke on most days of my CBG load versus my T7 load.....again, all can be subjective to time, location, humidity, etc, It is hard to not get smoke obstruction with most any BP load with certain conditions and no wind....unless one is trying to get VERY ILLEGAL with duplex or perhaps low side of 32s, That is what makes the category competitive in its own style.....smokey.

 

Take care my friend.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Howdy Doc "The Duck" long time no see. I prefer Schuetzen because it's a cleaner burning less fouling powder. However I like it real smokey too, with little or no wind, and the cloud ceiling about 20 feet Good Luck

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Wano powder is manufacturer in Germany by the same company that makes Scheutzen powder.

 

Wano-Schwarzpulver GmbH & Co.

Kunigunde KG. Kunigunde.

D-3384 Liebenburg 5. Germany

[Noz]

The "GAMERS" came up with the doughnut hole crown for black powder guns. Supposedly if you did the crown then each shot would blow a doughnut shaped smoke cloud leaving you with an unobstructed view of the target.

It didn't work.

Darn it!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Anyone that is really concerned about the smoke in a BP category is probably in the wrong category. With BP you really have to learn to shoot were the targets were. As noted by lots of other posters, the smoke is subjective and depends on a variety of factors. I have photos of a shooter taken from the right hand side and you can hardly see the shooter. Photos taken from the left side look like there is hardly any smoke. Sun angle, humidity (or lack thereof), even bullet lube can affect the amount of perceived smoke.

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

I crossed over to the dark side about a year ago, started with APP. Humid mornings here in northwest Florida, sometimes you can't see ANYTHING through the smoke from APP. If you are shooting into the sun, it's even worse. I switched over to Goex for everything.

 

Now I only use substitutes when I run out of the real stuff...& hate having to do it. I really like the 2 ft flame out the muzzles of my guns.

 

Holler

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

Slightly OT - Anyone notice the change in APP from a very light grey color to almost black flakes, also from the white bottle to the black bottle? Any change between the two types?

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

The "GAMERS" came up with the doughnut hole crown for black powder guns. Supposedly if you did the crown then each shot would blow a doughnut shaped smoke cloud leaving you with an unobstructed view of the target.

It didn't work.

Darn it!

But Noz, It IS a good mind factor for us "g____s", probably had Cody do it on over a half dozen 73s.....but, you are perhaps right about it's ability to leave hole in smoke. However, when wipped clean, it sure leaves a nice shiney crown...cosmetics is cool. ha

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

 

 

Very good and interesting thread...I'm going to bring up something to the thread...Does the quality of the powder cause a difference in ther amount of smoke?? The standards that are used to manufacture today and that of yesterday are different...So does this make a difference??

Review post 6. BP is not still made to the same quality standards as it was 100 years ago, according ot several pards who have access to older powder. Today's powder is more cheaply made, less consistent, but made in almost totally automated plants. They do report it makes more smoke than vintage cartridges. But, it doesn't really matter. No one is hopping into a way-back machine and going back for a few tons of DuPont #7.

 

Sherman (errrrr - GJ)

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Slightly OT - Anyone notice the change in APP from a very light grey color to almost black flakes, also from the white bottle to the black bottle? Any change between the two types?

APP has gone from light gray to dark gray to light tan to dark tan and now it is black. The latest batches seem to have a lot less dust in them and don't gum up your progressive press as quickly as the older stuff.

[Snakebite]

When testing for the BP Standard, there were a number of things noticed. Volume for volume, the Goex Cowboy seemed to produce the least amount of smoke. In my test... 2F 777 produced the most and was certainly the most powerful. All the others fell somewhere in between. Swiss was pretty good, the Elephant that I had at the time was pretty dirty, and the KIK was also dirty.... (I got a can of KIK much later, that was much better). None of them was a good as the old can of Hodgdon Black Powder that I had. It was more powerful and cleaner than the other BPs. I have been pleased with Goex Pinnacle and have a pretty good supply of it. I like Real BP but just won't take the risk of getting caught with too much on hand. California has some pretty heavy limits. They all produce enough smoke to meet the standard, and I shoot them all and they all work. However, for a Big Match I get real serious and Load only my favorite powder with my bullet and favorite lube. (won't say)

 

Snakebite

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

But Noz, It IS a good mind factor for us "g____s", probably had Cody do it on over a half dozen 73s.....but, you are perhaps right about it's ability to leave hole in smoke. However, when wipped clean, it sure leaves a nice shiney crown...cosmetics is cool. ha

And sometimes even a fancy little crown is pretty worthless. In pick one can not see smoke gathered autside window but can imagine how made it is if one can see fire like this from barrel. Good ol'northeast TX humitity. Heck, looks as though I am launching rifle rather than bullet.

 

 

 

 

early rotation at EOT can be fun also---Triple 7 FFg

[Krazy Kajun]

Billy Boots....from the look of the fire out your rifle I'd bet that guy standing behind you in the picture holding the spotter's stick could be timing you from there too!!

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Here's my fav pic of me shootin' the Goex FFg

 

taken by Tin Type Charlie...

 

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj281/pagnew/GunnerintheNewYear-3_zps7a31207f.jpg

 

GG ~