Your opinion wanted - Shotgun only stage at an annual

[Trailboss (Santa) Dave]

I like the shotgun, but this kind of stage would drive a lot of the ladies away from shooting with you.

 

4-6 rounds

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

We have a bay that is SG only. To get 10 stages for our annual, we need to use this bay. Not sure if anybody stays away because of this, but the stage is always fun with lots of down range movement.

 

The next stage usually has two or zero SG. We gotta do it or only shoot 9 stages. Have not really heard any complaints. the stage usually runs 12 to 14 rounds, and yes, BP will heat up the barrels in a hurry. It does not take much practice ti load a double with a glove on your loading hand. Ya gotta be tough to be a Cowboy

 

CR

[COLORADO JACKSON]

Great idea - I say do it at Bayou Blast next time....

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Nope. And at an annual or bigger match, I would not use a revolvers-only or a rifle-only stage, either, regardless of how many rounds the shooter had to fire. Don't have folks do something they have no practice doing, if you want a happy set of shooters.

 

A stage that is noticeably faster, quite a bit slower than normal, too easy or too difficult skews the final results in most any way of scoring the match.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I bet any buckeroo/buckerett with a 410 single shot would not have a smile on their face when they shot it.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

The OP said 10 shots.

 

Where did all of the speculation of so many more shots come from? Chicken Little syndrome?

 

I shot nine or ten shotgun only stages last year alone. No melted barrels, burns, or crippling injuries were had by anyone in attendance. The argument that people that aren't proficient with the shotgun will be at a disadvantage is true in any match. It's common knowledge more time is wasted with poor shotgun technique than just about anywhere else. There is a solution, its called practice. If you aren't willing to spend some practice time with your shotgun, maybe you shouldn't be worried about being competitive.

[Pit Bull Tex]

My grandson loves his shotgun. He is 10 and small but he has a single trigger 410 double barrel hat Johnny Meadows did and he will shoot a box of shells and grin all the time.He love the shotgun more than his 38s are his little henry.

[COLORADO JACKSON]

The OP said 10 shots.

 

Where did all of the speculation of so many more shots come from? Chicken Little syndrome?

 

I shot nine or ten shotgun only stages last year alone. No melted barrels, burns, or crippling injuries were had by anyone in attendance. The argument that people that aren't proficient with the shotgun will be at a disadvantage is true in any match. It's common knowledge more time is wasted with poor shotgun technique than just about anywhere else. There is a solution, its called practice. If you aren't willing to spend some practice time with your shotgun, maybe you shouldn't be worried about being competitive.

agreed

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

The OP said 10 shots.

 

Where did all of the speculation of so many more shots come from? Chicken Little syndrome?

 

I shot nine or ten shotgun only stages last year alone. No melted barrels, burns, or crippling injuries were had by anyone in attendance. The argument that people that aren't proficient with the shotgun will be at a disadvantage is true in any match. It's common knowledge more time is wasted with poor shotgun technique than just about anywhere else. There is a solution, its called practice. If you aren't willing to spend some practice time with your shotgun, maybe you shouldn't be worried about being competitive.

Those of us competitive types probably don't give a rat's ass about the actual stage...who cares...we'll all still be kickin ass on the same people. Question is...is it fun???? Is it a good idea for an annual???

 

So yeah, winning takes practice...so what? When is that news?

 

Shotgun only...boring.

 

Again, just my has-been's opinion.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Those of us competitive types probably don't give a rat's ass about the actual stage...who cares...we'll all still be kickin ass on the same people. Question is...is it fun???? Is it a good idea for an annual???

 

So yeah, winning takes practice...so what? When is that news?

 

Shotgun only...boring.

 

Again, just my has-been's opinion.

O' wise Phantom, if you're looking for enlightenment or breaking news from my posts, please pass them by. You'll find neither in anything I write. If you're willing to entertain another opinion, then feel free to spend your time reading.

 

The fact that it might be boring is the best reason I've seen so far to NOT do it. My previous post was in response to other assumptions, so you'll need to read the rest of the thread.

[Grizzly Dave]

As a side match, awesome, I might even shoot it.

 

Because of host club bay restrictions, it is what it is, I'll live with it.

 

As a stage in a main match, as I said earlier, no thanks. Would it affect my attendance in the future? Most likely it would, there are lots of great matches out there, and not much money to go to them, so I'd likely choose one where all the stages we closer to what I enjoy the most.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Would it be fun? Can't guarantee one way or the other, all depends on the setup.

I have found that most any idea can be fun given the right layout and directions.

 

Does it belong in an annual? I don't think so.

 

Almost every shooter has a "Best" gun.

Four shooters with comparable stage times may all have differing skill sets.

Shooter 1 is a pistol monster.

Shooter 2 is lightning with a rifle.

Shooter 3 is a pro with transisitons.

And Shooter 4? Shotgun Zen Master.

 

On a stage that includes all four guns - their strengths and weaknesses balance out to comparable stage times.

A shotgun only stage now places an inordinate weighting to a single skill set.

 

And lastly - being that perception is reality - those shooters without strength in the shotgun skill set may "feel" the match was deliberately set to advantage/ disadvantage someone.

And shooters that "feel" that way don't return next year.

[Charles B. Gatewood SASS #48517]

I have to say it should be a side match.

 

FWIW. At TMS we have a side match called the Shotgun Blast. It consists of 17 targets with knockdowns and poppers. Shooters are encouraged to bring as many shells as they want to the firing line and everyone really has fun with it.

 

CBG

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I bet any buckeroo/buckerett with a 410 single shot would not have a smile on their face when they shot it.

All she has to do is hit the targets not knock them down. Is the recoil on the 410 too much for her?

[Casper Kid]

Sounds like a hoot to me. If you're kinda slow with the SG....practice...practice....practice. I've heard it said that some are luckier than others when it comes to shootin'. From what I've seen though, the more you practice, the luckier you get.

[Griff]

I think some of y'all need to be shaken out of your comfort zones. Doin' something 'different' might just be the spice that adds a little zip to your step... Just because a stage doesn't use all four firearms doesn't mean it will be 'boring'. Some of the MOST CHALLENGING stages can be those that highlight a certain firearm. I've seldom heard "challenging" as being boring. Frustrating, aggravating, irksome, satisfying, rewarding are some that I can remember... boring, not so much.

 

Possum Skinner, DO IT! I challenge any one that thinks they wouldn't like it to show up with me and SHOOT IT! I'll say it now, you simply couldn't handle the way things were done back in the early days CAS... I ain't saying we don't have fun now... but I damn well guarantee that we had fun then also... Otherwise why would there still be folks that shot back then, still shooting today? (And BTW, before you put your foot in it... the main reason that there aren't more still shootin' from the old days... it's because they're dead... literally, or their sense of fun died)!

 

Y'all have ONE flatly erroneous idea of what cowboy action shooting is... I suspect your sense of fun is dying a slow death.

 

(Okay, Possum Skinner, better not fail me now)!

[Captain Bill Burt]

It's pretty hard to load a .410 down, or at least so I've been told. My Buckaroo weighs less than 60 lbs and even though he's a tough little guy when he was shooting 12g featherlites more than 4 in a stage was rough on him. I could see it on his face and I could tell by the way he flinched. Now that I'm making custom loads for him it's not an issue, but for small guys/gals shooting store bought ammo I'm sure it could be. Take a look at the affect of a featherlite on a guy that size then imagine 10 in a row.

Here he is shooting a custom load:

Not everyone loads their own for shotgun, and many matches don't have any buckaroos/buckarettes at all. But if they do have any shooting and they're shooting factory stuff it's going to be rough.

BTW, I'm not saying this to criticize including this type of stage, I know you can't tailor your stages for a small minority of shooters. I'm sure you've got a pretty good idea what your mix of shooters will look like.

[Grizzly Dave]

Out of my comfort zone is fine for a monthly, not at an annual or above in my opinion.

[Brasspounder]

Main match stage?..Nope. The idea sucks.

 

Side match? Yup, with lots of movement between each two shots, reactive targets, aerial targets, etc.

[COLORADO JACKSON]

Those of us competitive types probably don't give a rat's ass about the actual stage...who cares...we'll all still be kickin ass on the same people. Question is...is it fun???? Is it a good idea for an annual???

 

So yeah, winning takes practice...so what? When is that news?

 

Shotgun only...boring.

 

Again, just my has-been's opinion.

You must remember Phantom did win some type of award for most likely to start s*it on the wire a couple of years ago, so he must keep in true form, I do believe though he would be somewhat scared of an all shotgun stage at a big match....take that Phantom!! Ive seen him and his shotgun, with an all shotgun stage he might need to keep a couple of extra 97s holstered just in case of a malfunction....Phantom...what say you??

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

 

It's pretty hard to load a .410 down, or at least so I've been told. My Buckaroo weighs less than 60 lbs and even though he's a tough little guy when he was shooting 12g featherlites more than 4 in a stage was rough on him. I could see it on his face and I could tell by the way he flinched. Now that I'm making custom loads for him it's not an issue, but for small guys/gals shooting store bought ammo I'm sure it could be. Take a look at the affect of a featherlite on a guy that size then imagine 10 in a row.

Here he is shooting a custom load:

Not everyone loads their own for shotgun, and many matches don't have any buckaroos/buckarettes at all. But if they do have any shooting and they're shooting factory stuff it's going to be rough.

BTW, I'm not saying this to criticize including this type of stage, I know you can't tailor your stages for a small minority of shooters. I'm sure you've got a pretty good idea what your mix of shooters will look like.

My silver senior 5 foot tall wife shot AA Featherlights three months after having her shooting shoulder rebuilt. They have less recoil than most 410s. She shot our club yearly match with a 16 target all shotgun stage after 6 months with no issue.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

You must remember Phantom did win some type of award for most likely to start s*it on the wire a couple of years ago, so he must keep in true form, I do believe though he would be somewhat scared of an all shotgun stage at a big match....take that Phantom!! Ive seen him and his shotgun, with an all shotgun stage he might need to keep a couple of extra 97s holstered just in case of a malfunction....Phantom...what say you??

Na - when "IT" counts, I make sure my 97 is running just fine...the State match it didn't...but hell, I hadn't looked at or cleaned the thing since last summer.

 

State was work for me...wasn't really focus on the competition...

 

;-)

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

O' wise Phantom, if you're looking for enlightenment or breaking news from my posts, please pass them by. You'll find neither in anything I write. If you're willing to entertain another opinion, then feel free to spend your time reading.

 

The fact that it might be boring is the best reason I've seen so far to NOT do it. My previous post was in response to other assumptions, so you'll need to read the rest of the thread.

hmmmm...I did read the rest of the thread...corrolating your response to a particular post is not something that interested me...sorry.

[Captain Bill Burt]

My silver senior 5 foot tall wife shot AA Featherlights three months after having her shooting shoulder rebuilt. They have less recoil than most 410s. She shot our club yearly match with a 16 target all shotgun stage after 6 months with no issue.

Your wife is 8 inches taller, with correspondingly longer arms, and although I'm sure she is a lovely woman it wouldn't surprise me if she weighed close to twice as much as my 57 lb Buckaroo. Proportionally the difficulty someone that size faces holding a 7+ lb shotgun is similar to a 200 lb man holding a 25+ lb shotgun with a 40+ inch barrel. It's not just the recoil, it's the posture and leverage someone of that stature faces while trying to deal with the recoil. You can use a lighter shotgun, but recoil will obviously increase correspondingly. Newton's law cannot be ignored.

 

As I stated previously, I'm not suggesting PS try to tailor a stage to someone on the extreme low side of the stature distribution, but I'm offering my observation for his consideration, which I believe is what he asked for.

 

From my perspective it would be fun to shoot the stage, particularly if it included 10 pistol, 10 rifle, but I probably wouldn't let the Iron Cowboy shoot it.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Rumors east of the Mississippi is that Phantomborg is smokin quick with that '97. I doubt he ever feels 2nd rate in competition with anyone.

 

But besides that, he answered the question about it being fun and stated .... 'No'.

 

I'm sure it would be fun for alot of folks. And not so much for others. Particularly if somebody's SG gives up the ghost on the first shot. In a big match with Rank scoring, it would be terminal. No one has mentioned that aspect of it.

 

Personally, I wouldn't put it in an Annual (or bigger) match because I think it would be disproportional.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

..........Widder

[Rock Hound]

I would be very happy with an all shotgun stage or a stage with smaller targets set farther away where you have to slow down and aim or moving targets or or... ah bring it all on. Lets mix it up some.

[Griff]

Capt. Burt, hadn't considered the Junior aspect of it. So... if the Junior course of fire were cut short... similar to how their tees are a bit closer to the hole in that stupid game designed by drunken Scotsmen!

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I just attended an annual, Heldorado Returns in Ukiah. They had two 16+ all SG stages. You moved down range, shooting from three separate positions.

 

I believe the most frail ladies, us three Senior Ladies, were on my posse. Two of us have hand issues and one has back issues. We did it. I didn't mind the shooting. I especially liked that they had pipes as make-ups for the "birds." So, you could clean it if you wanted. I'm not so sure the other two liked the stages as much as I did.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I even got all four snakes out of the circle with one shot.

PPS I was one place away from the top half, which rarely happens anymore.

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

Surprised Cliffy hasn't chimed in... with his All Shotgun matches. 126 rounds of pain and suffering.

 

I got a wussie pad on the '97 the next week.

 

For an annual match stage: No. It unfairly favors us big meat-sponges with wussie pads and '97s.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I like shooting all my guns, so I would say probaly not.

 

Another thing is there gonna be a few folks really struggle with it like a little kid,old injured person, etc.

 

For speed shotgun side match 6 or less,preferabaly 4 ,that way folks can shoot more times.

 

 

AO

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Can't believe that I read this whole thread without a mention of the Gunfight at the Bird Cage Theatre up in Montrose CO. It's pretty famous for a few stages, one of which is the ALL SHOTGUN 18 rounds with 3 poppers at the end.

 

1st 6 are pairs of knockdowns; then run about 10 yards; next 6 are pairs of knockdowns... ALL AMMO IS STAGED.

 

The run down to a coule of swingers, activators and poppers. It was a hoot. I really liked it.

[diablo slim]

Here is my 2 cents worth:

We just hosted a TSRA match at the Texas Ten Horns that included an all shotgun stage.

8 rounds with the last being a flying clay bird.I mixed in swingers ,KD,and windmills at different

locations. Hay bails were set up in a zig zag patern running down range.There were about 4 steps

to get to each station.We used the plant and poke rule for saftey..There was a small cowboy target

at the end of the string for making up a missed bird.

Everyone shot this stage and "LOVED" it. And guess what no one melted a barrel ,or burned a hand as far

as I could tell.The faster times were under 15 seconds...Yes I did do it that fast(not bad for a broken down 60 year old)

but I did not win that stage( way to run and gun Colt Faro).

I have run this stage with 10 rounds but no more than that.

 

Shooter says: TELL'em I'M COMING and Hells COMING WITH ME!

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

Illowa Irregulars at Milan Illinois have routinely had an all-shotgun stage of the 10 stages at the 2-day Fall Roundup. About 14-16 rounds with KD's, KD's that trigger clay fliers, pop or beer cans, and stationary claybird holders as make-ups for the flier misses. Great fun in my and many others' opinion, including our antique shooters.

We have had some variations on this stage, but typically it goes like this... From behind the corral fence, shoot a pair of knock downs with flyers(clay birds on posts to make up flyer misses), move down range into the corral a ways and shoot a couple more knock downs, move down range and shoot a couple more, move the last time and shoot four more knock downs. Firing positions are marked with posts. As the shooter is moving down range, the flyers can be reset and hulls recovered. It moves pretty fast and every one seems to have a good time. BP shooters have been known to borrow a glove from Fancy Bob. Those with slides borrow a shogun belt from a pard. People new to the Fall Round-up may be short of shells, but there is always somebody to help out with that. If you use more than a box of shells to get through the stage, you should be prepared to get some hoots from your "friends".

 

Chancy

[Sierra Steve]

Because of range safety limitations, our semi-annual shoots includes a shotgun only stage. Most people seem to enjoy it and our posse organizers mix it up pretty well. The two I like best is a Texas star (a five pointed spinning wheel with five knock 'em off targets) with a trap launcher behind and oblique to the side (safety issue to avoid hitting shooter and RO with a clay pigeon) which flies when called by shooter or, at shooter's choice, comes immediately after a shot at the spinning Texas star. No matter what you only get five birds. Good shots get through the stage with 10 rounds,. I have seen not so good shots expend 15 or 16 rounds before running out of ammo. A nice and a bit easier variation uses the Texas star with two on the ground knock downs, each of which launches a clay pigeon when knocked down. Good shots need 9 rounds, not so good shots need a dozen or more. Shot gun only stages are fun and I think deserve a place in the stage line up, at least now and then. And sometimes if you want six stages you need shot gun only stage if your range has safety restrictions on rife or pistol on one of the available stage areas. Besides, the shotgun is about as American west as you can get; notwithstanding all our veneration of the SAA, Winchesters, etc.

[Creek Johnson]

I enjoy shotgun only stages. It mixes it up and while I thoroughly enjoy the three gun, sometimes, you may only have a shotgun. I wouldn't mind seeing this as a main match stage at an annual.