Stage Descriptions

[Haole]

We shot a great major match a week ago – great people and
a very enjoyable weekend of shooting. They
had entertainment 3 nights, their awards ceremony was the best I’ve ever
attended, there were 2 catered dinners plus the caterer offered breakfast and
lunch at very reasonable prices, a half dozen vendors all with tents were in
attendance, and a tent set up for a saloon made for great après shooting
activities. A great match.

Their range has 12 shooting bays all with great store
fronts and other props. Their targets
were all in great condition, the targets were large and they were set close up
and personal. Several people commented
the expectation of having a lot of clean match awards. Did I mention that it was a great match?

But with 200+ shooters, there were only 13 clean match
awards given out to 6.5% of the shooters – this was not what many shooters
expected.

A similar major match we attended last year with just shy
of 200 shooters also had large targets that were also close in. At their awards ceremony there were 30+ people
named for clean match awards (15 % of shooters), then another 20 people went
forward for a clean match with a hiccup (a P or a MSV) that marred their clean
shooting performance. So they honored
25% of their shooters with an award for accurate shooting.

 

At another major match we attended a couple years ago, the
match director commented that he wanted more that 10% of his shooters to get
clean match awards and with 200+ shooters and large, close in targets, their
awards ceremony honored more than three dozen clean shooters (18.5% of
shooters).

 

Back to last weekend’s match; the problem (in my opinion)
with the really low number of clean matches with large close in targets was
with the rather brief stage descriptions in the shooters pamphlet that led to a
few too many procedural traps. Too many
of us visitors had a hard time learning what your stage writer expected from us
and we earned a P or two before we got on top of the learning curve.

A typical stage description, this one with a picture of 4
pistol targets, 4 rifle targets, and 4 shotgun targets, stated:

“With pistols shoot 3,2,2,3 any order.

With rifle same instruction as pistols.

With shotgun targets until all down.”

 

Another stage description, this one with 3 pictured
pistol and rifle targets and 4 shotgun targets, stated:

“Shoot pistol targets 3.4.3 in any order.

Shoot the rifle targets the same instruction as pistols.

Knockdown all shotgun targets.”

 

Now this brief description might work well for local club
and neighboring club shooters who, after shooting several monthly matches, became
familiar with what was expected of them, but we visitors were left with a lot
of questions that needed to be answered by twelve different posse marshals with
twelve different detailed description – some adequate, some less adequate, and
some misleading.

Here’s my point:
Those of us who are visitors to your match need a bit more information
to shoot your stages correctly. Those of
you writing stages for major matches, please, spend a bit more time and take a
bit more care in how you are describing what you expect from us visitors. Please consider the fact that many of us will
be shooting with you for the first time.

 

Haole

PS: Comments would
be appreciated. I’d be especially
interested in hearing what many of you think these brief stage descriptions mean
to your way of thinking.

 

[Marshal Stone, SASS #53366]

I have know problem with the stages you describe as written.

To me the problem is that a lot of shooters are used to the stage

writer giving instructions with no options for how to shoot a stage.

With the above the shooter get choices. Thus allowing each

shooter to shoot to their strengths.

 

For example on the stage that says 3 pistol targets shoot 3-4-3 any order.

I, as a double duelist, would shoot the left target 3 times and the center

target 2 times with my left revolver. The right revolver would be shot

3 times on the right target and 2 times at the center target, thus

completing the 3-4-3 any order. Now for the rifle I'd sweep the targets 3-4-3

probable left to right, depending on shotgun layout.

Both ways met the stage instructions. May not be the best for you but it

works for me.

 

Pretty simple but when given options a lot of shooters overthink the stages.

 

Marshal Stone

[Widder, SASS #59054]

using the same stage scenerio that Marshal Stone referenced, as a GF, I would have shot the targets in this order:

 

1-3-1-3-1-3-2-2-2-2

 

 

..........Widder

[twelve mile REB]

Actually the description is adequate depending on the number of targets. The real failure if any is the posse marshal didn’t get a clear description of the procedure required and write it down so that he/she could pass it on. On the other hand if the intent was for you to shoot both outside targets first then inside or some other combination of target engagement then the description is way short of adequate. I personally like shorter descriptions but if the match director is unwilling to accept some creativity on behalf of the shooter then a long more detailed description is in order. The other thing would be if there wasn’t a posse marshal walk though under those conditions then the MD should accept what they get so long as on four or three targets its sum is 3-2-2-3.

12

[Fordyce Beals]

Haole

 

Not defending the stage instructions, I fill in one more piece of the puzzle: Both shooting days were hot and on Day 2 water and ice consumption was beyond the inventory on the range and had to be replenished. As you are from a hot climate perhaps you don't lose ability and reasoning power in the heat, but thats my take on the lesser number of clean shooters.

 

Fordyce Beals

[Haole]

Fordyce,

 

The other two matches mentioned were also in hot weather with temperatures in the high 90s and low 100s and water was also running short. I still can't reconcile the fact that these three matches seemed the same in most details (close, large targets; hot weather; and good shooters shooting a lot of clean stages). Yet, your match only ended up with a third and a fourth the number of clean match awards as the other two matches. The only difference I see is that the other two matches had stage discriptions that stood on their own requiring very little fill in from the posse marshals. Our posse marshal had many great qualities, but a bit below average on explanation capabilities.

 

Another shooter mentioned that his posse marshal saved his bacon on several stages that he was in doubt on.

 

I stand by my recommendation, next time spend a bit more time writting stage descriptions that are clear to everyone, especially those visitors who seldom shoot your matches.

 

Haole

[Dang It Dan 13202]

I can only speak for the years I was involved with The Last Stand in Florida. We strived for 10% of shooters to shoot clean. Anything less was a failure on our part. As to the very short stage descriptions, well, IMO, if you leave the stage wide open by saying "in any order" you can't blame the shooter for being creative, BUT as shooters if there is a particular way that you want to shoot it, just ask the Posse Marshal BEFORE you do so. If he gives you his blessing, have at it.

 

In this case, a little more detail might have gone a long way.

[Dragon Hill Dave #59561]

I'm with Marshal Stone on this one. Seems to me that the instructions are pretty simple and straightforward. How do you get a P with these instructions? 3-2-2-3 on the pistols, 3-4-3 on the rifle. Or you could alternate outside- in on the pistols from each side, or do many other variations. Tex recommends simple instructions that gives shooters options--less words the better.

 

I do agree though that the shooter might want to warn the spotters how he plans to shoot the stage so they will be looking at the right target as he shoots.

[Fordyce Beals]

I stand by my
recommendation, next time spend a bit more time writing stage descriptions
that are clear to everyone, especially those visitors who seldom shoot your
matches

Haole

 

Your input is appreciated and will be used in the future.

 

I looked at the SASS Premier match results and 2 shooters shot clean and one procedural. That shows room for improvement.

 

I have know (no) problem with the stages you describe as written.

 

To me the problem is that a lot of shooters are used to the stage

 

writer giving instructions with no options for how to shoot a stage.

 

With the above the shooter get choices. Thus allowing each

 

shooter to shoot to their strengths.

 

.....Pretty simple but
when given options a lot of shooters overthink the stages.

 

Marshal Stone

 

Marshal Stone understands what was the intention of the stage writing.

 

Fordyce Beals

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

,Sometimes with targets big and close folks just go a little harder and sometimes they get a few misses.I set targets up big and close and one month folks will miss alot and another month they wont, nobody complains because everything is hittable.

 

 

AO

[Anvil Al #59168]

I'm with Marshal Stone on this one. Seems to me that the instructions are pretty simple and straightforward. How do you get a P with these instructions? 3-2-2-3 on the pistols, 3-4-3 on the rifle. Or you could alternate outside- in on the pistols from each side, or do many other variations. Tex recommends simple instructions that gives shooters options--less words the better.

 

I do agree though that the shooter might want to warn the spotters how he plans to shoot the stage so they will be looking at the right target as he shoots.

 

 

I could shoot with those stage instructions NO PROBLEM.

pistols would be

 

The 3-2-2-3 and the 3-4-3

I would both of those the same way.

 

First one. 3 on the right outside then 2 on target #4. Then 3 on the left outside and 2 on #2

 

 

Rifle I would just go across triple tapping and double tapping as needed.

2nd pretty much the same thing. 3 on the right outside then 2 in the middle, then 3 on the left outside and 2 in the middle.

[Anvil Al #59168]

How did they get P's on those????

 

Pretty simple.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Wow even this old fart understood those directions. Whad did everyone find so difficult, i.e. what were the Ps? Maybe I missed something. Some folks sometimes have difficulty with directions that give the shooters a whole lof of flexibility. I think it comes from not having a firm plan how they are going to shoot the stage and sticking with it.

[Royal Flush]

Would be interesting to know how many misses were recorded on stage #6 the skinny coyotes.

Like has been stated big and close is fun as long as you can stay under control.

Speed kills.

Royal Flush

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

How did they get P's on those????

 

Pretty simple.

Hi Al,

 

I don't remember exactly. The shooter either shot 3-3-4 or 4-3-3 instead of 3-4-3.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Hi Al,

 

I don't remember exactly. The shooter either shot 3-3-4 or 4-3-3 instead of 3-4-3.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Would a lengthy description have stopped those Ps? I doubt it. I find with big and close targets, a shooters shooting can out shoot his thinking.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS I only know of one person getting a P on that stage, so it is not, to my knowledge, "those Ps". Maybe Fordyce can check and see if there were others. Or how many total at the match.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Ah yes, the old "I want to be told exactly how to shoot a stage" stance.

 

Why????

 

Can't folks figure out a sequence that works best for THEM, and then make sure that it meets the requirements?

 

Seriously, how can a 3-4-3 any order be a hard thing to figure out? So...you want to be forced to shoot it 1,1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,3...or some other variation? Why? it's not like the instructions were something like 1,3,3,1,2,2,1,3,3,1...now THAT'S a P trap!

 

A brain fart is a brain fart...

 

Oy...

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

A tip of the hat to the stage writer. Many, many, many (did I mention many?) ways to shoot it correctly. Nothing wrong with the instructions. I love simple with options. If enough data was available, a "connection" could be made, but it might be as simple as a different group of people shoot the match.

 

I once helped a stage writer analyze a match that had an inordinate number of procedurals as compared to other matches written by him. He asked me to look at it thinking I could tell him what was "complicated" about that particular match. There was nothing complicated, but close examination revealed that there were a few shooters who had woke up on the procedural side of the bed. In other words, most of the P's came from a handful of folks.

 

Haole, I suspect you know the answer is in the statistics. My advice: Don't look for the answer to be where you expect to find it.

 

In God we trust; all others must bring data.

W. Edwards Deming (maybe)

[bo bean 61280]

that day Haole shot the rifle 3,3,4 for the p

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

I remember going from a stage writer who wrote complete instructions to one who wrote them with little instruction. I like as little wording as possible but still can find round count and order for each target. Any order is what I prefer.

[bo bean 61280]

5 dogs has to use the 5 dogs as targets. i don't know a way to make them easy to hit. any help would be appreciated. always want it to be better

[Blastmaster]

Actually the description is adequate depending on the number of targets. The real failure if any is the posse marshal didn’t get a clear description of the procedure required and write it down so that he/she could pass it on. On the other hand if the intent was for you to shoot both outside targets first then inside or some other combination of target engagement then the description is way short of adequate. I personally like shorter descriptions but if the match director is unwilling to accept some creativity on behalf of the shooter then a long more detailed description is in order. The other thing would be if there wasn’t a posse marshal walk though under those conditions then the MD should accept what they get so long as on four or three targets its sum is 3-2-2-3.

12

As others have mentioned, ask or inform the PM/TO how you want to shoot it so they can be watching and keep up. If they give their blessing, then go for it. It could save you a potential miss or procedural call because the counters/TO missed whatever inventive way you thought up.

[Roger Rapid]

Maybe I didn't have enough coffee yet today, but I don't see the problem with an instruction "3-4-3 [or 3-2-2-3] in any order." To me, the words "in any order" to me would me the targets in any order. So, 3 consecutive shots on a target followed by 4 consecutive (but from two guns) on another target followed by 3 consecutive shots on the last target would seem right to me. And the same holds true for 3-2-2-3.

 

If I was the PM/TO, I'd call Anvil Al's routine of: First one. 3 on the right outside then 2 on target #4. Then 3 on the left outside and 2 on #2 as being a P.

 

Aren't "3-4-3 in any order" and "3-4-3 left to right" similar, but still very specific instructions?

 

What am I missing?

 

RR

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

that day Haole shot the rifle 3,3,4 for the p

 

Perhaps shooter read "any order" to targets rather than rounds per specific target. This could be just lack of matches under the belt to educate on stage descriptions and/or failure to question TO/RO questions. Other than that possibility, I personally like the instructions, room for shooter to engage in the manner that they feel best for them. However, as mentioned, if engaging in ones personal likes, it sometimes does help to avoid confusion if shooter announces to spotters the sequence about to be "attempted".

[Silver Shadow]

that day Haole shot the rifle 3,3,4 for the p

 

Trying to understand the confusion. Is it possible that some shooters took the "any order" statement to mean they could put the "4" round string on whichever target they chose? I'm also wondering if some of the creative interpretations of how to shoot the stage may result in unwarranted "P's" due to spotter confusion. I think that maybe a few seconds of communication between the shooter and the TO and/or spotters prior to the beep would certainly have been beneficial if the descriptions and/or walk through were inadequate for the shooter.

 

As a person who would love to shoot with as many different groups as possible someday, I'm just trying to learn.

SS

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Trying to understand the confusion. Is it possible that some shooters took the "any order" statement to mean they could put the "4" round string on whichever target they chose? I'm also wondering if some of the creative interpretations of how to shoot the stage may result in unwarranted "P's" due to spotter confusion. I think that maybe a few seconds of communication between the shooter and the TO and/or spotters prior to the beep would certainly have been beneficial if the descriptions and/or walk through were inadequate for the shooter.

 

As a person who would love to shoot with as many different groups as possible someday, I'm just trying to learn.

SS

HI SS,

 

IMO, that would be written as engage two targets three times each and one target four times, any order.

 

The 3-4-3 indicates that the outside two targets are engaged three times each and the center target four times. The "any order" implies that the shooter can do many things, such as start on the left or right or center. Or sweep three times and put the last shot on the center. Many folks shot it 3-2 first pistol, 2-3 second pistol. Others shot 3 L, 2 Center with the first pistol and 3 R, 2 Center with the second pistol.

 

I hope that helps,

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

 

PS Again, no one has stated whether there were any other Ps on that stage or an excessive number for the match.

 

PPS Maybe Fordyce did post there was only one P on that stage.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

HI SS,

 

IMO, that would be written as engage two targets three times each and one target four times, any order.

 

The 3-4-3 indicates that the outside two targets are engaged three times each and the center target four times. The "any order" implies that the shooter can do many things, such as start on the left or right or center. Or sweep three times and put the last shot on the center. Many folks shot it 3-2 first pistol, 2-3 second pistol. Others shot 3 L, 2 Center with the first pistol and 3 R, 2 Center with the second pistol.

 

I hope that helps,

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

 

PS Again, no one has stated whether there were any other Ps on that stage or an excessive number for the match.

 

Several options the way stated in stage discription and several already mentioned. I like that, If a double duelist , or anyone, wanted to avoid double or triple taps then the stage could have been shot as a Nevada sweep from each end with two revolvers.....1-2-3-2-1--3-2-1-2-3. Rifle seems best at 3-4-3 from either end.

[Blastmaster]

Several options the way stated in stage discription and several already mentioned. I like that, If a double duelist , or anyone, wanted to avoid double or triple taps then the stage could have been shot as a Nevada sweep from each end with two revolvers.....1-2-3-2-1--3-2-1-2-3. Rifle seems best at 3-4-3 from either end.

I think I would ask before shooting it the way you described

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I think I would ask before shooting it the way you described

What would you ask for? I might inform the spotters of my intentions.

[Griff]

1st of all, hat's off to the stage writer. Choices for shooters based on their style, preferences or feelings are always good. Howver, shooters need to beware of the "over-thinkin'" their capabilities, I wonder how many clean matches were lost to misses, versus only to "P"s. Seemingly simple target sequences oftem lead to shooters going for speed over control, where more complex target sequences tend to slow the less experienced or practiced shooters. Absent more data, jumping to conclusions can lead to bad assumptions. But you put quite a burden on spotters...

Maybe I didn't have enough coffee yet today, but I don't see the problem with an instruction "3-4-3 [or 3-2-2-3] in any order." To me, the words "in any order" to me would me the targets in any order. So, 3 consecutive shots on a target followed by 4 consecutive (but from two guns) on another target followed by 3 consecutive shots on the last target would seem right to me. And the same holds true for 3-2-2-3.

 

If I was the PM/TO, I'd call Anvil Al's routine of: First one. 3 on the right outside then 2 on target #4. Then 3 on the left outside and 2 on #2 as being a P.

 

Aren't "3-4-3 in any order" and "3-4-3 left to right" similar, but still very specific instructions?

 

What am I missing?

 

RR

1. TO could make that "P" call, but he'd be wrong. Unless the OM were the TO, he lacks authority to make that call.

 

2. What you're missing is "in any order." As long as you put the correct NUMBER of hits on the corresponding target, the order in which they arrive on that target is immaterial. Shot like this: 1-2-3-3-2-1-1-2-3-2, 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-3-3-3, or 1-1-1-2-2-3-3-3-2-2, all put 3 shots on target 1, 4 shots on target 2 and 3 shots on target 3; satisfying the requirements of the stage instruction. Other sequences can do the same.

 

 

I think I would ask before shooting it the way you described

 

 

Several options the way stated in stage discription and several already mentioned. I like that, If a double duelist , or anyone, wanted to avoid double or triple taps then the stage could have been shot as a Nevada sweep from each end with two revolvers.....1-2-3-2-1--3-2-1-2-3. Rifle seems best at 3-4-3 from either end.

Why? The only correct answer would be, "ok." That sequence puts 3 shots on target 1, 4 on target 2, and 3 on target 3. What Straight Arrow said.

[Flying W Ramrod]

I thought the scenarios well written to the extent that they gave the shooter the option on how to shoot them.

Round count vs target engagement.

One problem also lies with 12 Posse Leaders who each heard the description and then told the posse otherwise. You know the game, whisper in one persons ear and have it passed around a circle and it comes out different at the end.

The only way to avoid this is Berm Marshals. I know, EOT had some problems with berm marshals, but once the book made it clear that the berm marshal had no input on misses, procedurals, safety or disqualifications, it seemed to work well.

The BM only reads the stage scenarios and answers questions regarding engagement.

That way every shooter hears the same instructions the same way.

 

On one of the stages at the OP match, there were to be as many rifle rounds at a 2second bonus target but remembering you still had to knock down the targets on the rack. Once you shot at the rack, you could not go back to the bonus target. Any shots remaining after knocking down the rack had to go on a dump target. Only plates standing and misses on the dump target counted as misses.

Pretty easy right.

Well one posse leader told his posse that one shot must go on the dump target.

One posse leader told his posse, if they put four on the knock downs, they could go back and shoot the bonus target as long as they saved one for the last knockdown.

Berm Marshals would have prevented these mistakes.

The only problem is, people want to shoot not be berm marshals. Like EOT, allow the BM's and officials shoot thru's on the side match days so they can attend to their duties.

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

I reckon I'm thick headed, but showing me 4 targets and saying "3,2,2,3" means ignore the two outside targets. Then saying "in any order" kinda negates the order I just saw in "3,2,2 3". Maybe they should've said "In any other order."

[Blastmaster]

What would you ask for? I might inform the spotters of my intentions.

Just perhaps during the PM walk through, it was stated that that particular order wasn't the way or intention to do it and would be a P.

 

By stating your intentions, you are asking and/or informing the spotters and PM/TO. If it is not ok, then you can modify your stratigy. Could possible save hate and discontent between all and a potential trip to the MD.

[Dubious Don #56333]

 

 

...

A typical stage description, this one with a picture of 4

pistol targets, 4 rifle targets, and 4 shotgun targets, stated:

 

“With pistols shoot 3,2,2,3 any order.

With rifle same instruction as pistols.

With shotgun targets until all down.”

 

Another stage description, this one with 3 pictured

pistol and rifle targets and 4 shotgun targets, stated:

 

“Shoot pistol targets 3.4.3 in any order.

Shoot the rifle targets the same instruction as pistols.

Knockdown all shotgun targets.”

 

Now this brief description might work well for local club

and neighboring club shooters who, after shooting several monthly matches, became

familiar with what was expected of them, but we visitors were left with a lot

of questions that needed to be answered by twelve different posse marshals with

twelve different detailed description – some adequate, some less adequate, and

some misleading.

 

...

 

 

Highlighted for clarity

I don't get the issue. These seem to be very simple and straightforward, there is NO opportunity, IMPO to read anything into the stage. In other words, clean and easy.

 

If they had stage descriptions at each stage, the PM should have read from that. No room for conjecture, woulda-coulda-shoulda or other claptrap. If certain PM's were handing out P's for shooting 3-4-3 or 3-2-2-3 incorrectly I don't get that because the descriptions CLEARLY stated any order.