Pulp, SASS#28319 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Plus, not every SASS member is gonna buy one. I've got all the SASS rifles I need, don't plan on buying any more. That said, I do wish well for anyone wanting to make a '73, and hope they sell 'em by the millions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Plus, not every SASS member is gonna buy one. I've got all the SASS rifles I need, don't plan on buying any more. That said, I do wish well for anyone wanting to make a '73, and hope they sell 'em by the millions. True - they may end up buying two. GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 And the reason is why? First of all stainless steel is not rust proof only rust resistant. I know from first hand experience that S.S. guns can rust over a short period of time although the damage was much less severe than a carbon steel gun. As mentioned stainless steel is harder to machine. Most manufacturers will use their expensive cutting dies as long as possible before replacement which means the quality of the machine cuts will decrease as the die gets duller. APWCOGAN website explains it much better than I can. “Stainless alloys have an inherent tendency to gall or bind when the two working surfaces are in the same alloy family. Gun manufacturers try to limit this problem by varying the hardness of the parts that work against each other and increasing the tolerances between the parts.” It is very difficult to get stainless steel parts to hold fine toleerances such as the hammer/sear engagement. Because of this manufacturers use carbon steel internal parts that are plated! So your stainless steel gun is not all stainless steel. Stainless steel is softer and more scratches easily than carbon steel. Industrial hard chrome has a R.C. rating of 65. Nickel Plated Finishes, in general, run about a 45 R.C. which is as hard as most of the parts in firearms manufacturing. ROBAR offers NP3 with as-plated hardness of Rc 35-50. In certain applications it can be heat treated to Rc 68-70. Electroless nickel has a RC rating of C53 – 56 with Rockwell of 68 – 70 possible. It is true than plating can flake or peel. However that is most likely the result of poor preparation of the gun. I have owned many nickel plated guns and only had one flake. It was a Colt SAA and I blew the nickel off the front of the cylinder with the first box of bullets. The nickel also started peeling off the frame. I sent the gun back to Colt who refinished it under warranty. Today 15 years later the nickel is tight, bright and no signs of peeling or flaking. I have been considering having a stainless steel 1911 hard chromed as an ultimate rust resistant firearm. http://apwcogan.com/plating-and-refinishing/finishes-metal-finishes.html http://www.robarguns.com/precision_coatings.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 440 SS can be hardened up to 60 HRc. Whether or not it can be used in firearms at that hardness I don't know.... ...but I used to sell tooling for machining 440 that was 48 HRc GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Branch Louie Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 I don't know how many they would sell, but I hope a lot. To me, US manufacturers missed the boat on SASS rifles. I understand why Winchester would have dropped the 73 way back when in favor of a rifle cheaper to manufacture. But they didn't see the demand on the head end for 73's in SASS, and that's a shame. I will buy one if I can afford it, and I would love to have one in stainless. I LIKE stainless guns, and how easy it rusts depends a lot on what kind of stainless it is. Hardness varies a lot from type to type, too. In a lot of cases today, companies are "hard milling" tools, so ceramic curtters don't much care what they cut. It IS hard on drills and taps. But the cost of cutters wouldn't factor in big time per rifle. Another big plus with stainless is that you can easily touch it up if so inclined. I'm not knocking nickel guns, just like stainless better.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 First of all stainless steel is not rust proof only rust resistant. I know from first hand experience that S.S. guns can rust over a short period of time although the damage was much less severe than a carbon steel gun. As mentioned stainless steel is harder to machine. Most manufacturers will use their expensive cutting dies as long as possible before replacement which means the quality of the machine cuts will decrease as the die gets duller. APWCOGAN website explains it much better than I can. “Stainless alloys have an inherent tendency to gall or bind when the two working surfaces are in the same alloy family. Gun manufacturers try to limit this problem by varying the hardness of the parts that work against each other and increasing the tolerances between the parts.” It is very difficult to get stainless steel parts to hold fine toleerances such as the hammer/sear engagement. Because of this manufacturers use carbon steel internal parts that are plated! So your stainless steel gun is not all stainless steel. Stainless steel is softer and more scratches easily than carbon steel. Industrial hard chrome has a R.C. rating of 65. Nickel Plated Finishes, in general, run about a 45 R.C. which is as hard as most of the parts in firearms manufacturing. ROBAR offers NP3 with as-plated hardness of Rc 35-50. In certain applications it can be heat treated to Rc 68-70. Electroless nickel has a RC rating of C53 – 56 with Rockwell of 68 – 70 possible. It is true than plating can flake or peel. However that is most likely the result of poor preparation of the gun. I have owned many nickel plated guns and only had one flake. It was a Colt SAA and I blew the nickel off the front of the cylinder with the first box of bullets. The nickel also started peeling off the frame. I sent the gun back to Colt who refinished it under warranty. Today 15 years later the nickel is tight, bright and no signs of peeling or flaking. I have been considering having a stainless steel 1911 hard chromed as an ultimate rust resistant firearm. http://apwcogan.com/...l-finishes.html http://www.robarguns...on_coatings.htm Howdy Your references have several generalizations that are not always true. One of your references talks about the Staineless alloys used in gun manufacturing being magnetic. It states we should take a magnet and it will jump all over the stainless gun. I am holding my Stainless Remington 1858 New Model Army, made by Uberti. A magnet is not attracted to it at all. The Stainless used for the barrel and frame of this gun is not magnetic at all. However my Stainless S&W Model 624 is very magnetic and a magnet sticks to it like glue. Yes, there are many, many different alloys of Stainless. Whether or not they are magnetic depends on how the crystalline structure lines up as the molten alloy cools. There are three general types of Stainless Steel alloys, Austenitic, Ferritic, and Martensitic. It is the Austenitic alloys that do not show any attraction to a magnet. The other two are generally magnetic. I guarantee you the hammer and trigger in my S&W are made of Stainless, not carbon steel. However I will bet that the hammer and trigger in my Stainless Uberti are actually carbon steel. There are many Stainless alloys that have been formulated specifically to be easier to machine, mostly the 300 series. I suspect most interior Stainless parts are made from one of the 300 series alloys. Regarding corrosion of Stainless guns, yes, any Stainless alloy can be made to corrode, but I have never had any problem with a Stainless gun corroding. Then again, I don't get much corrosion on my blued guns either. P.S. The magnet sticks like glue to my Stainless Vaqueros too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Howdy Your references have several generalizations that are not always true. One of your references talks about the Staineless alloys used in gun manufacturing being magnetic. It states we should take a magnet and it will jump all over the stainless gun. I am holding my Stainless Remington 1858 New Model Army, made by Uberti. A magnet is not attracted to it at all. The Stainless used for the barrel and frame of this gun is not magnetic at all. However my Stainless S&W Model 624 is very magnetic and a magnet sticks to it like glue. Yes, there are many, many different alloys of Stainless. Whether or not they are magnetic depends on how the crystalline structure lines up as the molten alloy cools. There are three general types of Stainless Steel alloys, Austenitic, Ferritic, and Martensitic. It is the Austenitic alloys that do not show any attraction to a magnet. The other two are generally magnetic. I guarantee you the hammer and trigger in my S&W are made of Stainless, not carbon steel. However I will bet that the hammer and trigger in my Stainless Uberti are actually carbon steel. There are many Stainless alloys that have been formulated specifically to be easier to machine, mostly the 300 series. I suspect most interior Stainless parts are made from one of the 300 series alloys. Regarding corrosion of Stainless guns, yes, any Stainless alloy can be made to corrode, but I have never had any problem with a Stainless gun corroding. Then again, I don't get much corrosion on my blued guns either. I have a de-magnitized rod of 300 series ss rod in my ankle - I'm guessing that's why it doesn't t set off the airport security scanner... GG ~ ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Time to exhume this thread. Sent email two weeks ago, no response. Anyone out there have a recent status or delivery projection on this. I certainly don't want to purchase an Italian model at WR if an American is going to be available anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 According to his webpage, Redwing is going to be at Winter Range, I reckon you could ask him in person then if you don't get word sooner. Be sure to let us know what you find out. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Winchester really missed the boat on this one. They could have been making 1873's for a long time. I have 25+ years in the metal products industry as a machien operator, engineer and plant manager. The 1873 would have to be much less expensive to manufacture than the pistol-caliber 1894's. Those 1894's have intricate working inside a blind receiver and more complex parts in the carrier/feeding mechanism. The 1873 is very simple to machine with today's CNC equipment; many shops make more complex parts everyday. This is an opportunity for someone to step forward and provide an American-made 1873! Material costs would be the same as those in Italy, the wood would geenrally be better quality, the labor could be less (especially if made in a non-union shop) and the cowboys would line up to buy one or more, me included. Gone also would be importation costs and the additional profit margin of the importers. Ruger - can you hear this? Instead of a $2000 piston-action AR, how about copying a proven design with a ready market? How about also offering an 1873 with a picatinny rail, a flashlight, hi-vis optics and an offering chamberings in 9mm/.40/.45 acp? Who wouldn't like a tactical 1873? Speed loaders to go with it also! (I have missed shooting a CAS match for four weeks now. I need to shoot a match next Saturday and regain some levelheadedness!) I tend to see things your way but many here don't. I agree they made the right decision stopping production when they did but now there is a big market for the guns and we are buying cheap remakes in huge numbers. I wish we could get a count of how many Uberti's have been sold in the US while they were sleeping........that might make em' wish they would have tooled up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I tend to see things your way but many here don't. I agree they made the right decision stopping production when they did but now there is a big market for the guns and we are buying cheap remakes in huge numbers. I wish we could get a count of how many Uberti's have been sold in the US while they were sleeping........that might make em' wish they would have tooled up. True, but if Winchester were to make the '73 again, it would probably have so many lawyer safety features on it that we would stick to Ubertis anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I have heard from an opinion of a top shooter who is knowledgable about these things that the Red Wing 73 ain't gonna happen Certainly wish it would... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Got this from Kathy in Aug Subject: Re: 1873 Win Hi Dan, Thank you for your interest. We don't have the rifles priced yet, but we are doing our best to be competitive. The first ones will be .357 followed by .38-.40 and all will have the octagon barrel - I believe 18 or 20". I will check on that 44 mag version for you. We will also offer a stainless steel version. There is still a lot left to be done, but we are hoping to be in production maybe by the end of the year. Thank you again and we will keep you informed! Kathy Porter Redwing Gunworks Autolok Industries Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from Viaero You Can Ad Me To The List For A 44mag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 According to his webpage, Redwing is going to be at Winter Range, I reckon you could ask him in person then if you don't get word sooner. Be sure to let us know what you find out. Grizz Duh!!!! (on me) Where was my brain, thanks for reminder, I will ask them and publish what I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yea, but if it's American made doesn't that mean Big Bucks!! I'd guess TWICE as much as the Italian ones. Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'd guess TWICE as much as the Italian ones. Rye It depends how they do distribution. I don't think the price will be bad if they will sell direct to a dealer. If they go through a distributor then it will be expensive. Distributors are making real good money on these 73's. At least the American company won't have to pay all the import fees. For the quality of materials and workmanship the 73 is one of the most over priced guns on the market. However, they sell every 73 they make. How do you argue with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 There is no "Winchester" and hasn't been for quite a while. The name is licensed and the only lever guns currently made by Winchester are made in Japan. I talked to Red Wing at the SASS convention this past December. He did not have the parts he had showing at the previous convention and said he and his partners where still working on the project but it was slow going and expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 A USA made gun sounds great But where is the market? Millions to tool up and a few SASS shooters to buy ?? In today's world of CNC machining, the setup may be costly, but is probably not in the millions. Time and effort in programming and design, tolerance control, assembly training, and the like are probably the biggest expense. Do you farm out the barrels? Receivers? Sure would be fun to visit with these guys. This has to be run by someone who treats it as a "labor of love", who can spare the time from other duties to get it perfected. I wish them success! CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Well I am very much in favor of the second choice they are considering !!!!! .38-40 the improved .44-40 !!!! Sure hope they do this one with a 20 inch barrel !!!!!!!!!!!! Would be SWEET !!!!!! Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 They don't call it a fantasy game for nothing. Still waiting for my Bren 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 They don't call it a fantasy game for nothing. Still waiting for my Bren 10 The Bren 10 wasn't so hard to get. It was the magazines or the lack thereof that killed the Bren 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crooked jake,4371 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 It wasnt Sons of Guns ....but that other reality gun show ........built one fer a guy up in Montana ............was like 12k..........it was engraved though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I have heard from an opinion of a top shooter who is knowledgable about these things that the Red Wing 73 ain't gonna happen Certainly wish it would... GG ~ What is going to happen to all of those deposits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 What is going to happen to all of those deposits? To the best of my knowledge, Redwing has not asked for nor has he accepted any "deposits". They have started a waiting list, at no cost to those who sign up, but I'm not aware of ANY deposits taken. Hey Redwing!! If you're out there, put me on the list!! If they make it to production I want one, and if they don't I ain't lost a D@MN thing!!! Sorry for the expletive..............well maybe not really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 What is going to happen to all of those deposits? What deposits? - haven't heard of anyone making a deposit on this - at least from the Wire. ...maybe you are getting them mixed up with Merwin Hulbert.... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 It wasnt Sons of Guns ....but that other reality gun show ........built one fer a guy up in Montana ............was like 12k..........it was engraved though Are you talking about American Guns on Discovery Channel? They supposedly built an engraved 1866 for a rancher (in a few weeks) and charged him $20,000. I watched this program VERY closely, as they had contacted me beforehand asking to use a picture from my website in this episode and had me sign a release. However, they didn't use the picture. Even though it showed them milling a rough outline of a '66 frame in their CNC machine, I am pretty dang sure that they faked making it (except maybe the engraving, since the son does do engraving), and the finished product was an Uberti and the "rancher" was just an actor. I won't go into the reasons here, but that's "reality" TV for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 American Guns on Discovery Channel... ha! That show has some down right "funny" stuff in it. Like when the "good repeat customer" came in an paid a "gold coin" for a hand cannon made from an old stock and a sawed off 50 cal muzzle loader barrel ... What an utter rip off of a supposedly good customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolan Kraps, SASS # 24084 Life Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I'd buy a stainless '73 in .357 in a heartbeat!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams 3674 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Redwing has not taken, nor asked for a single penny from anyone on this project. I hope it happens, but it's a long, and expensive. shot to say the least. As for Winchester missing the boat, NOT! They know a train wreak when they see one! Not enough cowboy shooters on the entire planet to make such a thing realistic, let alone profitable. Truth is, others have looked at competing in this market, run the numbers and left it to Uberti. Quote: "We could not match them for either price point or quality." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Redwing is a stand up Pard. Truly one to ride the river with. I have been blessed to meet and spend a little time with him on several occasions, and have great respect for him, first as a man, and second as an artist. I have a knife and a screwknife that he made. Personal opinions on success of the project are just that. I for one applaud him for making the effort, and will support him in any way I can. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I am on his list for one.I talk to him for over a hour on the phone.The nicest man to talk to.I pray that God will bless their project,not just for them but for this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Redwing is a stand up Pard. Truly one to ride the river with. I have been blessed to meet and spend a little time with him on several occasions, and have great respect for him, first as a man, and second as an artist. I have a knife and a screwknife that he made. Personal opinions on success of the project are just that. I for one applaud him for making the effort, and will support him in any way I can. Grizz I think most of us do support him also - good intentions and honest effort doesn't always mean a happy ending..., as I have mentioned in my previous posts I hope it works out. GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outrider, SASS #72622 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Put me down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Received this today: Hi Daniel, I really do apologize for not answering your e-mail sooner. This has been a busy month! Thank you for your interest. The first rifles will be .357 followed by .38-.40 and all will have the octagon barrel. We will also offer a stainless steel version. We are getting requests for various calibers, and so we are looking into supplying those and what that would entail. We are finalizing the molds and tooling right now, and we hope to have the first test pieces completed in the next 30 days so that we can go into production. It is our goal to have the first rifles for sale this Spring. Keep watching the website for updates, and feel free to contact us anytime. Thank you again! Kathy Porter Autolok Industries/Redwing Gunworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Received this today: Hi Daniel, I really do apologize for not answering your e-mail sooner. This has been a busy month! Thank you for your interest. The first rifles will be .357 followed by .38-.40 and all will have the octagon barrel. We will also offer a stainless steel version. We are getting requests for various calibers, and so we are looking into supplying those and what that would entail. We are finalizing the molds and tooling right now, and we hope to have the first test pieces completed in the next 30 days so that we can go into production. It is our goal to have the first rifles for sale this Spring. Keep watching the website for updates, and feel free to contact us anytime. Thank you again! Kathy Porter Autolok Industries/Redwing Gunworks That's AWESOME! Glad to hear... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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