Question about fillers for 45 Schofield rounds

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

My arthritic wrists are having issues when I shoot my full load 45 Schofield rounds now. I have never used fillers and found a few loads using charcoal powder and grits with bad luck. Both loads were 24 grains Goex FFF and 3 grains of the grits  in one round and 3 grains of charcoal powder in the other rounds.  After just one cylinder shot the cylinder would hardly rotate with either of the loads. Any information would be appreciated. I shoot 25 grains of Goex FFF with my C&B Armies and my wrists do OK but shooting C&B in cold weather is not much fun so I shoot my cartridge guns in cold weather. Thank you in advance, DC

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Hey DC:
I shoot 20 grains FFg and a bit of finely ground corncob filler (RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #10) underneath a 185 or 200 grain black powder lubed boolit.
The corncob I got from Powder Inc many years ago.  Just bought some more, new from Amazon (Frankford Arsenal Corn Cob Media for Case Tumbling, Ammo Reloading and Shooting Bags)

Boolits are Cowboy #4 Black Powder (200 grain) or Cowboy #8 Black Powder (185 grain) from Missouri Bullet

Recoil is manageable.

 

A shooting buddy believes 15 grains black powder is enough for any boolit, and he loads even his 44-40 rifle loads with 15 grains.  Should work well for Schofield pistol loads, with an appropriate increase in filler.

Have not tried it myself, but I’m sure he’s right.

 

—Dawg

Edited December 13, 2024 by Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329

[Choctaw Jack]

I've used Cream of Wheat as filler before, but not with Black powder.

The box I had happened to be the chocolate variety, and it smelled pretty good with smokeless powder!

[slow poke gear]

You could try 45 cowboy special cases. They have less space than Schofields, might be easier on the hands. The will chambers in any 45 colt pistol.

 

[Rip Snorter]

Used cornmeal, but not with Black.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Your loads did not substitute enough of either filler to make much difference in the recoil.  Drop down to 15 grains of Black and you will feel some difference.   That then will take maybe 12 grains of filler to eliminate any air space.

 

Good charcoal is what is ALREADY IN black powder.   Unless  you used some very poor quality charcoal, there is no way the use of charcoal as a filler will cause extra fouling problems.  I shoot .44-40 and .45 Colt cases with about half BP and half activated charcoal, layered, and get no extra fouling.  Now, if you ground up cheap BBQ briquettes, that stuff has a bunch of sand and other garbage in it.

 

I'd betcha it's not the filler that is locking your cylinder, but the barrel/cylinder gap is too small.  And also pay special attention to using a GOOD BP lube, and plenty of it. 

 

I too am a fan of Cowboy 45 Special cases.  I cut old .45 Colt cases down and they last a LONG time.

 

I'm sure you can solve this if you try some of the simple stuff.   GJ

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I don't think the fillers had anything to do with the binding.  Probably either a tight barrel gap and/or lack of lube.  I've used grits for years as filler in BP loads.  As for recoil, as GJ said, use less Goex and more filler.  Also, what size bullet are you shooting?  That will make even more of a difference, the smaller the better.

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

21 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Your loads did not substitute enough of either filler to make much difference in the recoil.  Drop down to 15 grains of Black and you will feel some difference.   That then will take maybe 12 grains of filler to eliminate any air space.

 

Good charcoal is what is ALREADY IN black powder.   Unless  you used some very poor quality charcoal, there is no way the use of charcoal as a filler will cause extra fouling problems.  I shoot .44-40 and .45 Colt cases with about half BP and half activated charcoal, layered, and get no extra fouling.  Now, if you ground up cheap BBQ briquettes, that stuff has a bunch of sand and other garbage in it.

 

I'd betcha it's not the filler that is locking your cylinder, but the barrel/cylinder gap is too small.  And also pay special attention to using a GOOD BP lube, and plenty of it. 

 

I too am a fan of Cowboy 45 Special cases.  I cut old .45 Colt cases down and they last a LONG time.

 

I'm sure you can solve this if you try some of the simple stuff.   GJ

 

When I shoot 29 grains of FFF and no filler I never had an issue with the cylinder locking up but when I added the filler is when I had an issue. I use the Missouri black powder 200 grain bullets with both loads. Thanks, DC

 

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

10 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I don't think the fillers had anything to do with the binding.  Probably either a tight barrel gap and/or lack of lube.  I've used grits for years as filler in BP loads.  As for recoil, as GJ said, use less Goex and more filler.  Also, what size bullet are you shooting?  That will make even more of a difference, the smaller the better.

I used Missouri 200 grain bullets in both loads. Thank you, DC

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

27 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Your loads did not substitute enough of either filler to make much difference in the recoil.  Drop down to 15 grains of Black and you will feel some difference.   That then will take maybe 12 grains of filler to eliminate any air space.

 

Good charcoal is what is ALREADY IN black powder.   Unless  you used some very poor quality charcoal, there is no way the use of charcoal as a filler will cause extra fouling problems.  I shoot .44-40 and .45 Colt cases with about half BP and half activated charcoal, layered, and get no extra fouling.  Now, if you ground up cheap BBQ briquettes, that stuff has a bunch of sand and other garbage in it.

 

I'd betcha it's not the filler that is locking your cylinder, but the barrel/cylinder gap is too small.  And also pay special attention to using a GOOD BP lube, and plenty of it. 

 

I too am a fan of Cowboy 45 Special cases.  I cut old .45 Colt cases down and they last a LONG time.

 

I'm sure you can solve this if you try some of the simple stuff.   GJ

 

I bought the activated charcoal on Amazon and it claimed pure charcoal is used. I am going to try the corn meal and 15 grains FF plus 12 grains filler and see how that shoots this weekend, if the temp gets above 35 degrees. Thanks, DC

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

1 hour ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Hey DC:
I shoot 20 grains FFg and a bit of finely ground corncob filler (RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #10) underneath a 185 or 200 grain black powder lubed boolit.
The corncob I got from Powder Inc many years ago.  Just bought some more, new from Amazon (Frankford Arsenal Corn Cob Media for Case Tumbling, Ammo Reloading and Shooting Bags)

Boolits are Cowboy #4 Black Powder (200 grain) or Cowboy #8 Black Powder (185 grain) from Missouri Bullet

Recoil is manageable.

 

A shooting buddy believes 15 grains black powder is enough for any boolit, and he loads even his 44-40 rifle loads with 15 grains.  Should work well for Schofield pistol loads, with an appropriate increase in filler.

Have not tried it myself, but I’m sure he’s right.

 

—Dawg

Thank you. I will try this load next and see what happens. I need to try everything to keep shooting black. DC

[Kid Rich]

If you are using filler with BP you will get a much better result using a cardboard wad after you have slightly compressed your powder and before you put in your filler. I use grits and have for many years and never had a problem. It also helps to use a good BP lubed bullet.

kR

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

I do the same as kid! Been 20 grains. Black powder,  cardboard ones that I used for cap and ball  cream of wheat or grits then compress with 200 grain bear creak bullet. Been my 45 Schofield load for almost 20 years never had any binding issues once I got enough barrel gap, I do spray moose milk every 3rd stage when I remember. 

Rafe 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, I find I need about 0.008" (8 thousandths) barrel to cylinder face gap for running 6 stages without having to hose down the cylinder face.

The 3 thou that Ruger likes to have on Vaqueros, for example, is just too tight for BP loads.   And, opening the gap did not have any major downsides in accuracy for smokeless loads.

good luck, GJ

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Put me in Coach!!  Put me In!!  Hey DC,

 

First suggestion is drop your load to 15/16Gr either 2F or 3F.  Next up is drop your bullet weight to  160/165Gr if you want to stay with RNFP.  You may also want to try the Barnstormer bullet, 130Gr.  It's Physics.  Recoil is the product of the WEIGHT of the pay load combined with the VELOCITY.  Dropping your powder charge alone won't solve your problem.  For filler, I prefer Cream-0-Wheat as it doesn't compress and is righteously light.

 

I am also a proponent of the Cowboy 45 Special case.  The reduced internal volume promotes much better and more complete combustion.

 

Next up, start packing a small squirt/spritz bottle of PAM on yer gun cart.  Wet a rag between stages and wipe down the Cylinder Face and maybe a little squirt on the base pin/frame join.

[Blackwater 53393]

I’ve used 20gr of FFFg with an over powder card, a couple of fiber wads, (one of them lubed) and a 160 or 170gr RNFP bullet when I wanted a low recoil load. 
 

This worked well in my Rugers, my 1875 Remingtons and in my converted ‘58s, as well as my 1860 Henry, my ‘73 and ‘66, and Schoolmarm’s ‘92 carbine with little or no between stage issues.

 

I also used a very similar load in my .44 Russian revolvers!

 

It takes a little more time to put these together, but it works great for me!

[Eyesa Horg]

I've had good luck in my Rugers with 200gr. RNFP from Desparado Cowboy with a full C45S of 3F real BP compressed a tad under 1/8". They have gone 6 stages without issue. Finally after annealing some colt brass, my Marlin does too! Although I use Big Lubes in the rifle. Need to find some more of them!

[Will Kane]

What are you using for lube?

[Eyesa Horg]

Desparado Cowboy says BP compatible, but a normal lube groove so it doesn't carry enough for rifle. The big Lubes I'm just about out of are SPG.

[Burt Blade, #25657]

To reduce the recoil for pistol, use the lighter possible bullet.

 

Scarlett sells a nice 160g coated round.

 

You can also try 155g SWCs meant for a .45ACP.

 

For a Scofield case, Use 1cc APP 2f or 3f and .7cc grits or other suitable filler.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

On 12/13/2024 at 9:43 AM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Next up, start packing a small squirt/spritz bottle of PAM on yer gun cart.  Wet a rag between stages and wipe down the Cylinder Face and maybe a little squirt on the base pin/frame join.

BINGO! THIS^

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

I shoot Rugers  with the factory gap and no binding problems.  Big Lube bullets will eliminate most problems with real BP.   Seat them bullets deep sort of like wad cutters and leave a little nub of lead exposed to keep them legal. May be able to seat bullets upside down for pistols and crimp in bottom grease grove also works  No filler needed  If you lube your first rounds of the day like cap and ball pistols you blow lube into the nooks and crannies and prevent fouling from getting stuck in the many tight spots.  Seems like I was loading less than 20 grains in the Schofield case but memory not like it use to be when I was loading them.  It was easy to make 5 or 6 stages this way.

[Marlin Schofield]

If your shooting S&W 2000 PC Schofields with BP the cylinder to topstrap gap is too tight and there is no gas ring at the end of the cylinder, so they will lock up after 1-3 rds no matter what BP or substitute you load. S&W intended them to be shot with smokeless.

My .45S&W smokeless load: (for my S&W Schofields) 4.3grs Trailboss topped with a 200gr Bang & Clang ceramic coated bullet....Perfect!.

My .45S&W BP load: (for my "Evil Roy" SAA's) 15gr APP 2F, top with 065 Lee powder dipper of Bob's Red Mill Small Pearl Tapioca (fills case about 1/8" shy of case mouth to give a 10% compression APP recommends) topped with a 200gr Bang & Clang ceramic coated bullet...Perfect!

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Marlin Schofield said:

... top with 065 Lee powder dipper of Bob's Red Mill Small Pearl Tapioca...

First time I've heard of that for a filler!  How did that happen, were you just sitting at the kitchen table daydreaming and saw that package laying there and thought, "hmmm, I wonder..."  ?? 

[Griff]

On 12/12/2024 at 8:24 PM, slow poke gear said:

You could try cowboy 45 special cases. They have less space than Schofields, might be easier on the hands. The will chambers in any 45 colt pistol.

 

Fixed that for ya.

On 12/12/2024 at 8:50 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Your loads did not substitute enough of either filler to make much difference in the recoil.  Drop down to 15 grains of Black and you will feel some difference.   That then will take maybe 12 grains of filler to eliminate any air space.

 

Good charcoal is what is ALREADY IN black powder.   Unless  you used some very poor quality charcoal, there is no way the use of charcoal as a filler will cause extra fouling problems.  I shoot .44-40 and .45 Colt cases with about half BP and half activated charcoal, layered, and get no extra fouling.  Now, if you ground up cheap BBQ briquettes, that stuff has a bunch of sand and other garbage in it.

 

I'd betcha it's not the filler that is locking your cylinder, but the barrel/cylinder gap is too small.  And also pay special attention to using a GOOD BP lube, and plenty of it. 

 

I too am a fan of Cowboy 45 Special cases.  I cut old .45 Colt cases down and they last a LONG time.

 

I'm sure you can solve this if you try some of the simple stuff.   GJ

 

This ↑↑↑

On 12/13/2024 at 9:43 AM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

First suggestion is drop your load to 15/16Gr either 2F or 3F.  Next up is drop your bullet weight to  160/165Gr if you want to stay with RNFP.  You may also want to try the Barnstormer bullet, 130Gr.  It's Physics.  Recoil is the product of the WEIGHT of the pay load combined with the VELOCITY.  Dropping your powder charge alone won't solve your problem.  For filler, I prefer Cream-0-Wheat as it doesn't compress and is righteously light.

 

I am also a proponent of the Cowboy 45 Special case.  The reduced internal volume promotes much better and more complete combustion.

 

Next up, start packing a small squirt/spritz bottle of PAM on yer gun cart.  Wet a rag between stages and wipe down the Cylinder Face and maybe a little squirt on the base pin/frame join.

THIS ↑↑↑  That difference between the Schofields and 1860 Armies is the result of the difference in weight of the projectile.  .454 RBs are about 144 grains,   The fouling is one of the reasons I've stuck with Colt SAA when I shoot FC... the design of the bushing helps push fouling that escapes at the cylinder gap away from the gun.  I've never had to clean a Colt SAA when shooting BP during the course of a six stage match.  I also use Goex "Cartridge"... but, don't bother trying to find any.  The likelihood is that the last 10 lbs in existence is in my powder storage!  

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

5 hours ago, Griff said:

Fixed that for ya.

This ↑↑↑

THIS ↑↑↑  That difference between the Schofields and 1860 Armies is the result of the difference in weight of the projectile.  .454 RBs are about 144 grains,   The fouling is one of the reasons I've stuck with Colt SAA when I shoot FC... the design of the bushing helps push fouling that escapes at the cylinder gap away from the gun.  I've never had to clean a Colt SAA when shooting BP during the course of a six stage match.  I also use Goex "Cartridge"... but, don't bother trying to find any.  The likelihood is that the last 10 lbs in existence is in my powder storage!  

Are you referring to the Schofield revolver vs Colt revolver?  What you say is true, but I think the OP and thread are about the .45 Schofield cartridge and alternatives for reducing its recoil & fouling. 

 

Or did I miss a secondary topic buried in the responses?  Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve done that. 😊

 

 

Edited December 18, 2024 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[Griff]

4 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Are you referring to the Schofield revolver vs Colt revolver?  What you say is true, but I think the OP and thread are about the .45 Schofield cartridge and alternatives for reducing its recoil & fouling. 

 

Or did I miss a secondary topic buried in the responses?  Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve done that. 😊

Yes.  And no, you didn't miss a secondary topic...  I have a tendency to supply unsolicited opinions. 😉

[Kid Rich]

On 12/17/2024 at 10:44 AM, Marlin Schofield said:

If your shooting S&W 2000 PC Schofields with BP the cylinder to topstrap gap is too tight and there is no gas ring at the end of the cylinder, so they will lock up after 1-3 rds no matter what BP or substitute you load. S&W intended them to be shot with smokeless.

My .45S&W smokeless load: (for my S&W Schofields) 4.3grs Trailboss topped with a 200gr Bang & Clang ceramic coated bullet....Perfect!.

My .45S&W BP load: (for my "Evil Roy" SAA's) 15gr APP 2F, top with 065 Lee powder dipper of Bob's Red Mill Small Pearl Tapioca (fills case about 1/8" shy of case mouth to give a 10% compression APP recommends) topped with a 200gr Bang & Clang ceramic coated bullet...Perfect!

When did APP start recommending 10% compression? Last time I talked to the tech people at APP they said NO compression. APP is a smokiless powder. I have shot compressed loads with APP/Black MZ and had signs of over compression.

kR

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

When did APP start recommending 10% compression? Last time I talked to the tech people at APP they said NO compression. APP is a smokiless powder. I have shot compressed loads with APP/Black MZ and had signs of over compression.

kR

This is from APP website:

General loading instructions are to fill the case with our loose powder just to the point where the base of the bullet will very slightly compress the powder, about 1/16", when it is seated. NO FURTHER COMPRESSION is recommended or advisable and will result in increase pressures and erratic velocities! It is important that no air space or gap be left when the bullet is seated, and the use of fillers is not recommended for general cartridge shooting, but is often required and acceptable for achieving the lower velocities desired in Cowboy Action Shooting. The filler should be composed of an acceptable material as recommended by the Single Action Shooting Society. No grease cookie or lube wad is needed, and the use of one will lower the performance. Regular bullet lube is fine - no special bullet lube is required. A good consistent crimp will help give consistent results.

[Bailey Creek,5759]

I shoot 3F Goex Black Powder 15 gr.

Then I fill rest of case with corn meal.

Have been doing this for 25 yrs. No problems.

Use yellow corn meal, the white corn meal is too powdery.

I shoot 44-40.

[Kid Rich]

22 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

This is from APP website:

General loading instructions are to fill the case with our loose powder just to the point where the base of the bullet will very slightly compress the powder, about 1/16", when it is seated. NO FURTHER COMPRESSION is recommended or advisable and will result in increase pressures and erratic velocities! It is important that no air space or gap be left when the bullet is seated, and the use of fillers is not recommended for general cartridge shooting, but is often required and acceptable for achieving the lower velocities desired in Cowboy Action Shooting. The filler should be composed of an acceptable material as recommended by the Single Action Shooting Society. No grease cookie or lube wad is needed, and the use of one will lower the performance. Regular bullet lube is fine - no special bullet lube is required. A good consistent crimp will help give consistent results.

Yep. After the bullet is installed in the case the APP will settle and you end up with no compression or airgap.

kR

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

I have ordered some 160 and 180 grain bullets to see how they shoot with my standard BP load. I also ordered some 45 Cowboy brass to try as well. All the ideas are worth trying so I will try all until I find the recoil that is comfortable for me. I will use fillers if needed but hope the lighter bullets work alone. I will report results when I am done. Thank you. DC