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Disappointment using HP-38 for 44-40


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Howdy All, maybe you can give me some suggestions. I have some great .357 loads using Hodgdon HP-38; 3.4gr HP-38, .357 case, 148gr round nose bullet w/crimp groove, notable roll crimp, and Federal SPP. This is not a CAS load, it is for a GP-100. It shoots VERY clean with no powder residue. So I thought I would work up a HP-38 load for my 44-40 to use at CAS matches.

 

Hodgdon does have loads listed for HP-38 in 44-40 ammo, a min of 5.5gr and a max of 6.5gr. I made up a box each of 5.6gr, 5.8gr, 6.0gr, and 6.2gr with HP-38. I'm using Starline 44-40 cases, 205gr .428 diameter RNFP coated bullets from Slippery (OAL of 1.595), a notable (almost max) roll crimp using the Redding Profile Crimp Die (love that die), and a Federal LPP.

 

The problem(s)... all of the rounds fired were filthy. I had un-burned powder, or burned powder flakes remaining in all of the loads (also a fair amount left in the barrel. Additionally there was also a sooty somewhat sticky residue inside the cylinders and around the outside of the cylinder. So much so that after firing only two cylinders (12 rounds) it was noticeably more difficult to load new rounds. As the amount of powder went up, the flake residue went down SLIGHTY, but not by much. The attached pic shows the amount of residue flakes from only 6 rounds of the 6.0gr load, sitting on top of my shooting bag. There are more in the barrel of the gun. As a counterpoint, I have shot over 1000 rounds of Black Hills Ammunition in my main match guns and NEVER had an issue with un-burned powder or a sticky residue.

 

I know others have posted that they have successfully used HP-38 in the larger cases. Do people just put up with the dirty loads, or am I doing something wrong? The roll crimp is almost maxed out for the Redding Profile Crimp die. Would appreciate hearing any thoughts or suggestions you all might have.      Thank You Muchly,   the Kid

 

PowderFlakes.thumb.JPG.d985adc1b6d00e520dd00a38d7b0e2e8.JPG

Edited by El Sobrante Kid
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Howdy,

I get unburned powder with light bullets and light charges of HP38 in 45 colt.  I went up in weights and it went away.  I found there is a sweet spot depending on the bullet weight and powder charge, usually near the middle of the recommended load data.  But with the 160 grain bullets I always had a bit of unburned powder.  YMMV

Thanks,

Tye

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11 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

Howdy All, maybe you can give me some suggestions. I have some great .357 loads using Hodgdon HP-38; 3.4gr HP-38, .357 case, 148gr round nose bullet w/crimp groove, notable roll crimp, and Federal SPP. This is not a CAS load, it is for a GP-100. It shoots VERY clean with no powder residue. So I thought I would work up a HP-38 load for my 44-40 to use at CAS matches.

 

Hodgdon does have loads listed for HP-38 in 44-40 ammo, a min of 5.5gr and a max of 6.5gr. I made up a box each of 5.6gr, 5.8gr, 6.0gr, and 6.2gr with HP-38. I'm using Starline 44-40 cases, 205gr .428 diameter RNFP coated bullets from Slippery (OAL of 1.595), a notable (almost max) roll crimp using the Redding Profile Crimp Die (love that die), and a Federal LPP.

 

The problem(s)... all of the rounds fired were filthy. I had un-burned powder, or burned powder flakes remaining in all of the loads (also a fair amount left in the barrel. Additionally there was also a sooty somewhat sticky residue inside the cylinders and around the outside of the cylinder. So much so that after firing only two cylinders (12 rounds) it was noticeably more difficult to load new rounds. As the amount of powder went up, the flake residue went down SLIGHTY, but not by much. The attached pic shows the amount of residue flakes from only 6 rounds of the 6.0gr load, sitting on top of my shooting bag. There are more in the barrel of the gun. As a counterpoint, I have shot over 1000 rounds of Black Hills Ammunition in my main match guns and NEVER had an issue with un-burned powder or a sticky residue.

 

I know others have posted that they have successfully used HP-38 in the larger cases. Do people just put up with the dirty loads, or am I doing something wrong? The roll crimp is almost maxed out for the Redding Profile Crimp die. Would appreciate hearing any thoughts or suggestions you all might have.      Thank You Muchly,   the Kid

 

PowderFlakes.thumb.JPG.d985adc1b6d00e520dd00a38d7b0e2e8.JPG

 

Interesting report, thanks for the share. I have never used HP-38....should be somewhere between Trail Boss and Unique on the burn-rate scale. Keep us informed if any improvements. THANKS

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I load HP-38 in .38's for my wife's pistol loads, using the starting load from the Lyman manual.  They left enough unburned powder she was having trouble loading during later stages in a match.  Magnum primers and a good crimp fixed it.

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13 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

Howdy All, maybe you can give me some suggestions. I have some great .357 loads using Hodgdon HP-38; 3.4gr HP-38, .357 case, 148gr round nose bullet w/crimp groove, notable roll crimp, and Federal SPP. This is not a CAS load, it is for a GP-100. It shoots VERY clean with no powder residue. So I thought I would work up a HP-38 load for my 44-40 to use at CAS matches.

 

Hodgdon does have loads listed for HP-38 in 44-40 ammo, a min of 5.5gr and a max of 6.5gr. I made up a box each of 5.6gr, 5.8gr, 6.0gr, and 6.2gr with HP-38. I'm using Starline 44-40 cases, 205gr .428 diameter RNFP coated bullets from Slippery (OAL of 1.595), a notable (almost max) roll crimp using the Redding Profile Crimp Die (love that die), and a Federal LPP.

 

The problem(s)... all of the rounds fired were filthy. I had un-burned powder, or burned powder flakes remaining in all of the loads (also a fair amount left in the barrel. Additionally there was also a sooty somewhat sticky residue inside the cylinders and around the outside of the cylinder. So much so that after firing only two cylinders (12 rounds) it was noticeably more difficult to load new rounds. As the amount of powder went up, the flake residue went down SLIGHTY, but not by much. The attached pic shows the amount of residue flakes from only 6 rounds of the 6.0gr load, sitting on top of my shooting bag. There are more in the barrel of the gun. As a counterpoint, I have shot over 1000 rounds of Black Hills Ammunition in my main match guns and NEVER had an issue with un-burned powder or a sticky residue.

 

I know others have posted that they have successfully used HP-38 in the larger cases. Do people just put up with the dirty loads, or am I doing something wrong? The roll crimp is almost maxed out for the Redding Profile Crimp die. Would appreciate hearing any thoughts or suggestions you all might have.      Thank You Muchly,   the Kid

 

PowderFlakes.thumb.JPG.d985adc1b6d00e520dd00a38d7b0e2e8.JPG

 

 

Well Kid, I can't give you a load for the powder I'd use for that because both were ADI powders out of Australia and are out of production, Universal and Trailboss.

 

HP38 and WW231 are right next to each other, 29,30 on the burn chart. Unique/Universal are farther down and Unique would be my pick for a replacement if you can get it.

 

231 has been a go-to powder for me for a while. Using 185gr LSWC in 45ACP 231 was my powder and I never could get complete burning. Always had unburnt powder/smoky cases but that load shot great. In 38's and nine I didn't see that. Two words.

 

Load Density

 

I'd tell you to give the tech guys at Hodgdon a call. I'd tell you to call Coy at Speer but I'm pretty sure he's retired. Those Hodgdon guys should have some better answers for ya.

God Bless

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Howdy

 

These days I only load 44-40 with Black Powder.

 

But in my Smokeless days I always loaded it with Unique. 7.5 grains under a 200 grain bullet. Not a barn burner, but not a mouse fart either. A double charge with 7.5 grains of Unique should be easy to spot, as it is a fairly bulky powder.

 

Is it a little sooty? Yes, but who cares? We are not shooting fussy semi-automatics here, we are shooting single action revolvers and lever rifles. They should not be affected by a little bit of soot. At least mine never were.

 

44-40 has very thin brass at the case mouth, around .007 thick, vs about .012 thick for 45 Colt. It does not take as much pressure to expand a 44-40 case in a chamber as it does with 45 Colt. That is why 44-40 is so great with Black Powder, the pressure always expands the case and there is no blow by.

 

My two cents.

 

 

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The powder I used was new.   No.  No spray lube.   I must have double charged at least 2 cases.   So, that left with about 2000 to break down.   :(

My own carelessness, and nothing more.   Others may have wonderful success with the powder, but I am not going to try.  Too scared of myself.

Can't wait for Trailboss to come back.   Or even Red Dot.   That's pretty bulky too.

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Posted (edited)

Thank you for all your ideas, appreciate it.

 

Answers/Comments-

- Unique powder has also been very hard to find (until recently).

- I am already using 205gr bullets, so not much "up" to go in that regard.

- Savvy Jack, thank you for your great website. I have spent many hours there learning about the vagaries of the 44-40.

- Magnum primers are an interesting idea.

- I am already pretty much maxing out the crimp with the Redding Profile Crimp Die.

- With the 6.2gr load I can triple load the case. I am VERY aware of overcharging cases and I am always checking visually.

- The powder was purchased within the last 9 months, from Natchez.

- I do NOT use spray lube. All of these cases were wiped down with lube on a rag, so no lube on the inside. I use Ballistol as a case lube.

- The Hodgdon website was indeed the source of my information.

 

I will be reaching out to Hodgdon to see if they have any suggestions.     Thanks again,   The Kid

Edited by El Sobrante Kid
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2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

The powder I used was new.   No.  No spray lube.   I must have double charged at least 2 cases.   So, that left with about 2000 to break down.   :(

My own carelessness, and nothing more.   Others may have wonderful success with the powder, but I am not going to try.  Too scared of myself.

Can't wait for Trailboss to come back.   Or even Red Dot.   That's pretty bulky too.

Started using Unique in 1967.

All that I use for following SASS loads, .32 S&W, .38 Special, .44 mag and 12 gauge.

The use of a firm roll-crimp helps with the powder burn.

My second choice would be WW231/HP38.

 

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4 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

Thank you for all your ideas, appreciate it.

 

Answers/Comments-

- Unique powder has also been very hard to find (until recently).

- I am already using 205gr bullets, so not much "up" to go in that regard.

- Savvy Jack, thank you for your great website. I have spent many hours there learning about the vagaries of the 44-40.

- Magnum primers are an interesting idea.

- I am already pretty much maxing out the crimp with the Redding Profile Crimp Die.

- With the 6.2gr load I can triple load the case. I am VERY aware of overcharging cases and I am always checking visually.

- The powder was purchased within the last 9 months, from Natchez.

- I do NOT use spray lube. All of these cases were wiped down with lube on a rag, so no lube on the inside. I use Ballistol as a case lube.

 

I will be reaching out to Hodgdon to see if they have any suggestions.     Thanks again,   The Kid

Look at the Lee Factory Crimp Die. 

You want a FIRM roll-crimp! 

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30 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Look at the Lee Factory Crimp Die. 

You want a FIRM roll-crimp! 

 

I used to use the LFCD. I recently switched over to the Redding Profile Crimp Die and I like it better. In the pic the LFCD is on the left (lead bullet), the RPCD is on the right (coated bullet). I like the crimp made by the Redding die better, especially since it removes any bulging that might be created during the crimping process. Note: the lead bullet on the left is .430 diameter, that is why the case is bulged. The coated bullet on the right is .428 diameter. Both are in Starline cases.

 

CrimpComp.thumb.JPG.7a9e66fe7c99052163bd38d47960e05d.JPG

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2 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

I used to use the LFCD. I recently switched over to the Redding Profile Crimp Die and I like it better. In the pic the LFCD is on the left (lead bullet), the RPCD is on the right (coated bullet). I like the crimp made by the Redding die better, especially since it removes any bulging that might be created during the crimping process. Note: the lead bullet on the left is .430 diameter, that is why the case is bulged. The coated bullet on the right is .428 diameter. Both are in Starline cases.

 

CrimpComp.thumb.JPG.7a9e66fe7c99052163bd38d47960e05d.JPG


That picture is worth a thousand words…

 

The round in the left has much more crimp than the one on the left.

You also state that the one the left is .430 and the right .428

 

The right one is also coated

 

All three of these things will make for less bullet pull and therefore lower pressure.

 

As a test I would load some HP38 with bullets and crimp like on the right to see if you get less unburnt powder.

Edited by Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407
Don’t know left from right
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2 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

I used to use the LFCD. I recently switched over to the Redding Profile Crimp Die and I like it better. In the pic the LFCD is on the left (lead bullet), the RPCD is on the right (coated bullet). I like the crimp made by the Redding die better, especially since it removes any bulging that might be created during the crimping process. Note: the lead bullet on the left is .430 diameter, that is why the case is bulged. The coated bullet on the right is .428 diameter. Both are in Starline cases.

 

CrimpComp.thumb.JPG.7a9e66fe7c99052163bd38d47960e05d.JPG

Do you use a case gauge to confirm cartridge fitment? 

You need to back off the thumb screw on that LFCD about 1/3 turn.

Did you have the die base touching the shell plate on full stroke?

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38 minutes ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:


The round in the right has much more crimp than the one on the left.

The right one is also coated

All three of these things will make for less bullet pull and therefore lower pressure.

 

 

Actually, the harder the crimp, the higher the pressure created....or at least has been the case with my pressure testing loads.
Also, the weight of the bullet could be increased BUT that will also increase pressures (as well as other details) based on the published loads by Hodgden.

 

Generally "skeletons" would lead us to think that there is not enough time for the powder charge to completely burn...however, since the powder burn is between Trail Boss and Unique, this should not be the case.

 

It would appear that the sticky substance left in the action/cylinder is the main complaint.......and I have no earthly idea. Only thing left is lube and bullet coating.

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Sometimes a powder just is not a great one to use in Cowboy light power levels with a certain cartridge.  The thin case and neck walls of the .44-40 means any crimp that looks like it would be plenty heavy in, say, a .45 Colt case, is no where near as strong in a .44-40 case.  I find this by pulling bullets with a hammer type bullet pulller.  I can feel roughly how much force is resisted by the crimp.  It's always less crimp resistance in a .44-40 case.  

 

Bullet diameter makes a lot of difference in how a "dirty" load burns.  Stick with a 0.429 or 0.430 bullet diameter as long as it will chamber.

 

HP-38 IS EXACTLY Win 231.   Just relabeled.  If you find loading data that shows differently, the publisher of that data made some errors putting it together. 

 

I would try TiteGroup as a powder for this load.  I find it burns more cleanly at low pressures than does Win 231 in my use in .,45 Colt cases.  TG is generally available now.

 

good luck, GJ

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41 minutes ago, Savvy Jack said:

 

Actually, the harder the crimp, the higher the pressure created....or at least has been the case with my pressure testing loads.

Ah yes I don’t know my left from right but we agree on everything else

 

All three things on your right pict lower the pressure thereby not burning all of the powder

 

Like I said try an uncoated bullet of identical weight and crimp with a stonger crimp like on the left and I think you will get less unbuned powder 

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Howdy Again

 

44-40 is the only cartridge I load that I do not crimp and seat the bullet at the same time.

 

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for the final crimp with 44-40.

 

Here is a photo of a piece of brass with the 'bell' before seating the bullet, and on the right a completed round with the bullet seated and crimped with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

 

 

swy5pY.jpg

 

 

 

 

Because of the thin brass at the neck, it is easy to crumple a case when seating the bullet. The round in this photo is an exaggeration of a round with a bad crumple.

 

IS1BRy.jpg

 

 

 

 

One trick I learned a long time ago with 44-40 is to seat the bullet just a tad high so the crimp leaves a hair of space between the top of the brass, and the underside of the crimp groove. This prevents crumpled brass.

 

SRAnV5.jpg

 

 

 

 

Garrison Joe is correct, as usual. The thin brass at the top of the 44-40 case (38-40 too) means the crimp is never very strong. You can see in the photo above how the LFC die sort of smooshes the brass into the crimp groove. In point of fact, I never run 44-40 dummies through my rifle. The magazine follower slamming into a column of 44-40 rounds in a rifle magazine causes the bullets to telescope into the brass. Fortunately, with Black Powder loads this does not happen because the powder is slightly compressed by the bullet, preventing the bullet from telescoping into the case in the magazine.

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10 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

HP-38 in a .45...

KaboomHKU.thumb.jpg.b024b8a925ba1f74d38e2fc80d07baca.jpg'

 

.45 is similar to .44-40.    To easy to double charge.   

Nobody's fault by my own.   But I'll not risk using it again in the big calibers.

Are you sure you double-charged? Did you pull the bullets of any rounds left over in the batch you loaded?  If you used a lighter bullet and light crimp, you might have had a "premature shot start", in which the bullet jumps from the case into the forcing cone, where it stops long enough for the powder which only partially ignited then cooked off, sending the pressures sky-high!  I have loaded W231 in .44-40, but went to Hodgdon's Universal or Unique, because the charges with the faster-burning powders mean smaller volume of propellant, which leads to shifting of the powder charges in the subsequent rounds fired in the cylinder. I use 213.5 gr hardcast .430" dia. bullets behind 8.0 gr. of Universal. I crimp Winchester brass with enough roll crimp so that the crimp is visible, but not so much to cause collapsing of the case. The unburned powder showing up is ample evidence of too little bullet pull. I recognize that Universal is not available, and Unique may be hard to get, but I would recommend something as close to their burning rate as possible, with a firm crimp and a bullet in the range of 200 - 215 gr. or even 225 gr.

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Again, thank you for all your thoughts and suggestions, they are very helpful. In the pic I posted of the two cartridges next to each other, the lead bullet on the left is a load I worked on many years ago using the Lee Factory Crimp Die, and still had a few around. The coated bullet on the right is the current effort using the HP-38 and the Redding Profile Crimp Die.

 

Why a .428 bullet? After reading many, many posts here on the Wire, and reading Savvy Jack's website (Chasing the 44-40), I decided that I wanted to try the Redding Profile Crimp Die. In order to get the best results, it was recommended that a maximum diameter bullet of .428, along with no, or a very low, forward driving band, was ideal for the way the RPCD worked. I checked the Black Hills Ammunition that I have been using for the last two years and the bullet measured .428, plenty accurate in my guns, so I decided to go with that size.

 

As far as using Ballistol as a case lube, and that causing the sticky residue issue, it is certainly possible. That would be an easy test, just use a different case lube without changing anything else and see if the residue persists. When I load my .357 rounds I use carbide dies, so no case lube is needed.

 

Someone suggested it might be the coating leaving the residue. From the Slippery Bullets website, "We coat our bullets with a premium Polymer coatings designed for bullets. Our Coating is not Powder Coated Bullets.".  So I'm thinking it is probably not the coating.

 

2 hours ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

As a test I would load some HP38 with bullets and crimp like on the right to see if you get less unburnt powder.

Cayuse Jack, the round on the right IS the one that is currently giving me problems.

 

        Thank You Muchly,   the Kid

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The load is too light of a charge 

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17 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

As far as using Ballistol as a case lube, and that causing the sticky residue issue, it is certainly possible. That would be an easy test, just use a different case lube without changing anything else and see if the residue persists. When I load my .357 rounds I use carbide dies, so no case lube is needed.

 

I use Hornady One Shot Spray Case Lube.  Try it and see if that helps remove the sticky residue.  My main caliber is 38-40.

Edited by Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L
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I get a few flakes of power by the end of a match and never have sticky residue.  From the amount of unburned powder you have it almost looks like it might be contaminated.  Ballistol is a HORRIBLE case lube.  Oil can kill powder and primers.  I use Ballistol on my guns but would not have any of it in my loading area.  Ditch the Ballistol and try Hornady One Shot CASE LUBE.  (I.e., the stuff in the red can not the black can.)  It is wax based and will not harm powder.

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51 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

 

Edited by Eyesa Horg
Accidentally hit quote!!
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Short Update and Some Info-

 

- Hornady One Shot has been ordered. Should be an easy test for the sticky residue issue.

- I always run my brass through a vibratory tumbler with corn cob media before reloading.

- the amount of Ballistol as a lube is extremely minimal, leaving barely a sheen on the case, and nothing inside the case.

- the Dillon powder funnel sits inside the case by quite a bit, all but eliminating the possibility of contamination.

- suggestions that the powder load is too light. The max load is 6.5gr. I am already at 6.2 and I still have a lot of unburned powder.

- I always seat the bullet, and make the crimp, in two separate steps

- I have 2# of American Select, and will pick up a # of TiteGroup, and give those powders a try. Unique is still generally a unicorn... or $$$.

 

I absolutely agree that it looks like this powder is probably not a good fit for 44-40. I thought I had read on the Wire that people had used it successfully without any issues. My mistake, or just bad luck.     Thx,   the Kid

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I ran into the same issue with 231 which is ALMOST exactly the same powder in some 45 colt loads, very sooty and very uneven velocity. It also seemed position sensitive. I wondered if it it was just to little powder for the case volume 

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15 minutes ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said:

I ran into the same issue with 231 which is ALMOST exactly the same powder in some 45 colt loads, very sooty and very uneven velocity. It also seemed position sensitive. I wondered if it it was just to little powder for the case volume 

 

Hi Oak Ridge Regulator, thank you for that info. At 6.2gr the HP-38 fills up about 1/3 (33%) of the 44-40 case when the bullet is in place. Not a huge volume to be sure, but not a tiny amount either. At this point I think it is is fair to say that my HP-38 loads are not playing well in the 44-40 cases. Using Magnum Primers might improve the situation and is an interesting idea, but likely is not an ideal solution. Probably much easier to find a different powder, than to fight with the HP-38 and try to make it do what it (apparently) does not want to do, LOL. Whether or not the Ballistol as a case lube is causing, or contributing to, the sticky residue, is an entirely separate issue.

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