Savvy Jack

It is actually nice to see these "long range" side matches. The term "Long Range" is subjective, with the true rifles that really reach out past 300 yards. However, 150 to 300 yards is "Long Range" with the typical old west Henry and Winchester lever action rifles. I have tried numerous times to get some postal matches for these rifles but no one seems to want to do them. Even I have a hard time now that components are hard to get and expensive. I did get some 30-30 dies, cases and bullets but have yet to even load any. So I just dropped the charts down to the 44-40's

Thanks!!

It is nice to see such original styles. I get so tired of the modern BS

Wake up and smell the coffee, read the Topic Title

What is considered Long Range in SASS long range side matches?

Never use rifle powders as a reduced load powder. This is where folks fail to understand the difference between rifle powders/rifle cartridges, pistol powders/pistol cartridges. Unique was the first powder used as a reduced rifle load powder. The 25-20 is a rifle cartridge so IMR4198 should work like a charm when loaded to rifle specs. H4198 is not the same. 44-40 chamber pressures using IMR-4198 and H4198: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZyKKXVyHq9as9uFJiko5yReJ9a-ER32YsENTgJGJs4/edit?fbclid=IwAR1QJUpGOK1QfRgNzk1iF0yUT-aVCmxZ8ZKn3VYqkn9JgIl5-GYdb4s2d1o#gid=1865406066

weight vs volume, changes the way the world thinks!

I have used both the Lee Perfect Powder Measure (stand a lone) and the Auto disks with Trail Boss with no problems. When using the stand alone, you should have no problems looking into each case after each drop to check powder level. Even so, with powder measures on progressive presses, I always watch the powder charge the case to make sure there are no problems. A case full of Trail Boss in the 44-40, where the bullet sits on top of the powder charge, will produce about 16,400cup at only 1,250fps. This should be about 9.3gr with a 200gr lead bullet.

Withdrawn

That is great news!!!!

Thanks Rod, I never know when they work for other folks or not. Google is not the best website host...but it's free

Did the links everyone was posting not work?

Thanks fellas!! Hollow based bullets were not used by Winchester in the 1870's 44 WCF cartridges Data is here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/cartridge-details/winchester/bullets

Trailboss6.4gr1.mp4 6.4gr Trail Boss, 220gr 43-214A 4gr Unique, 220gr 43-214A Unique4grSecondary1.mp4

To add to Driftwoods post, here are some more photos of the Henry stuff. Also note that no Henry bullets recovered at the Bighorn Battlefields have hollow bases that I know of either.

Slim, to the best of my knowledge, Winchester never used a hollow based bullet for the 44 WCF loads. Winchester noted to use pure lead when handloading. The soft lead would expand into the grooves (especially oversized grooves) with the higher chamber pressures of the early 44 black powder pressures. I am not sure what information you say you already have, weight, shape, etc but this should be correct...... .427" 200gr RNFP, Soft Lead 40gr by weight of BP, powder compressed between .17" and .21" pending case design. Suggested powders From Winchester's August 1895 catalog For the 32, 38, and 44 WCF rifles and ALL center-fire pistol cartridges: American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 4" Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.F.G." E. I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.F.G." Laflin & Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.F.G." My test loads 215gr 43-214A soft lead 40gr by weight, compressed as needed. Original Unheadstamped, solid-head, large semi balloon pocket My test results are consistent with actual advertised velocities. All loads, 40gr by weight of BP, powder compressed between .17" and .21" pending case design. Year Represented/advertised velocity/cup/psi/tested velocity (20" barrel)/notes 1874 1,325 16,550cup 14,000psi 1,373 Test #43 - Pre-1884 Unheadstamped thru 1883, my Swiss FFg black powder test load results 1874 1,325 14,000cup 12,648psi 1,356 Test #71 - pre-1884 Unheadstamped thru 1883, my Goex FFFg black powder test results 1884 1,245 12,500cup 10,519psi 1,260 Test #54&53 - WRA, Western and REM-UMC Solid-Head, Semi-Ballon Pockt, Headstamped cases thru the early 1900's, Goex FFFg black powder tests 2019 1,245 9,817cup 8,305psi 1,235 Test #55 - Modern Starline cases, my Goex FFFg black powder tests For CAS loads, reduced loads, finding a hollowbase bullet just might help with such low chamber pressures. 44 Henry velocities for the Winchester Model of 1866, reported by Winchester, were 1,125fps

Don't let it fool you, they are nothing alike. Sharpshooter was a sliced hollow tube powder, which took to on the look of thick disks with a hole in the center. Sharpshooter is a slower burning rifle powder, not a fast burning pistol powder like Trail Boss. Trail Boss gets a bit finicky when loaded for true 44-40 original velocities (test 19)! Velocity suffers (never reaches 1,325fps) while chamber pressures skyrocket to near 44 WHV load standards (ref test 86). Other results can be found here: 44-40 Chamber Pressure Test Results Sharpshooter Powder details can be found here: Smokeless Powder Transition Years, Sharpshooter Test/Charge/Powder/Bullet/Name/Velocity/psi/cup/OAT/Target/Notes 85 15 Sharpshooter 200 JSP Winchester 1,222 9,176 10,846 75 6-17-2022-85 1925 thru 1950's Winchester Factory Loads 86 19.6 Sharpshooter 200 JSP Winchester 1,568 15,583 18,420 74 6-17-2022-86 1903 thru 1943 Winchester Factory Loads 12 6.4 Trailboss 200 LRNFP Acme Magma 1,034 7,224 8,539 38 IMR Website Max Load 12,000 CUP 19 9.3 Trailboss 200 LRNFP Acme Magma 1,250 13,909 16,441 38 https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf

Thanks fellas! UMC offered a 140gr and then a 160gr jacketed "Mushroom" smokeless load. These bullets were of the hollow base design. The powder used was Sharpshooter. . . . .

Note the chart says Impact Velocity Performance. This is the velocity needed for the hollow points to perform near to, or as designed for expansion. Two left, 45 Colt Speer GDHP factory loads....right, custom load to get it to expand properly 44Mag Sonoluminescence 44MagSonoluminescence.mp4

Best bet is to go with Slim's cast bullets at the link provided for Whyte's Leather Works. When the 44WCF, for example, was introduced...Doc Pardee sent in a letter praising the arm. He was able to shoot 40 consecutive shots without wiping the bore. Lyman's 427098 two lube grove bullet is basically the same bullet but slightly heavier for the Marlin line. For another example, the problem with the single lube Desperado 44-40 bullet (technically a Magma, cast with the Magma commercial molds) is that it does not carry enough lube for the amount of shooting done in CAS without having to wipe the bore between a given string of shots. Whyte makes a wide variety of those 38 cal. to 45 cal. cast bullets with plenty of lube for a CAS match.

I said it backwards....I drive backwards, I fly backwards and I cant spell or type worth a toot!

If it works in one revolver but not the other, then the main issue is with the one revolver. Compare the headspace (gap between the case head and the blast plate) between the two revolvers. More than likely the one having problems has MORE GAP than the other. Shooting full black powder loads in modern cases does not create as much pressures as was created with the originals from 1873 nor even the lower pressures from the 1880's. As has been said, it takes a certain pressure for the case to back out and hit the blast plate and reseat the primers back down into the primer pocket. This is also why we don't use large rifle primers. Also, check and make sure that there is not a bur at the firing pin hole in the blast plate. Sometimes the firing pin will hit the edge of the hole, creating a spur between the blast plate and the primer. Here are my results from testing black powder loads for the 44-40. (your mileage may vary). Modern black powder loads are shown in last entry. NOTE: If not using full loads, expect lower pressures. Read NOTE at bottom of chart for explanation.

Yeap, retired mine from CAS about 2010. Now I just hunt with it (44-40) after zeroing it in for 265 yards! June 2022 Jan 2022 265 yards 6X scope Me a little short and squatty but, I could be kneeling with a 45-70 pointed back at ya! 11 x 12 notebook paper target as bullseye.....c'mon, it ain't no 45-70!! :-) Yeah, I know, it's being used backwards but it fit better at the moment!

LOL, glad he is okay It is interesting that these are reportedly failing on cowboy action loads that are typically lightly loaded. Could it be cause by being "hard" (fast) on the lever?

I am still not sure what caused it. I hear different reasons. From what I have found by the internet gurus, some say heavy cycling of the lever, some say heavy loads, out of battery shots, etc. I have not "abused" it in any way so I don't know.