Disappointment using HP-38 for 44-40

[Sedalia Dave]

When lubing pistol caliber cases, I lay them flat on an inexpensive cookie sheet. This helps to keep spray lube out of the inside of the case. It's also a good way to do a final visual inspection for errant cases of the wrong caliber. 

 

 

Be sure to shake the can of Hornady 1-Shot well before using.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said:

I ran into the same issue with 231 which is ALMOST exactly the same powder in some 45 colt loads, very sooty and very uneven velocity. It also seemed position sensitive. I wondered if it it was just to little powder for the case volume 

I as well!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

2 hours ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said:

I ran into the same issue with 231 which is ALMOST exactly the same powder

 

Quote

I know that it's fairly well known that W231 and HP-38 are really the same powder, but I've never actually seen anything documented that confirms it, so I sent an email to Hodgdon asking for confirmation and received this reply:

Brian,

Yes they are the same powder we package it for Winchester. You can use the same data.

Mike Van Dyke
Customer Service Representative
Hodgdon Powder Company

From the Brian Enos forum.

 

 

I sure wish WE all understood that there is no difference in the HP-38 and Win 231 powders.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited July 24 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Oak Ridge Regulator]

Good to know 231 and HP38 are exactly the same, I said ALMOST in capital letters because I had never seen the posting from Hodgdon and had only seen years worth of reloading books with the exact same loads posted for the two powders. It’s certainly great powder in other cartridges 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

I lube my 44-40 and 38-40 cases with Hornady One Shot spray lube.

 

I usually load up 200 rounds at a time.

 

I place all my cases in 50 round wooden loading blocks .

 

Then I give them a quick spray of Hornady One Shot.

 

Notice the cases are mouth up in this photo.  A quick spray of a One Shot along one side of the loading block, then another quick spray along the other side.

 

You want the spray onto the case mouth, where it is going to meet the most resistance feeding into the sizing die.

 

You don't want a whole lot, too much lube leaves droplets on the cases, which can then dent the brass as it is fed into the sizing die.

 

Just a quick spray along one side of the loading block, followed by another quick spray along the other side.

 

YES, a little bit of One Shot probably  gets into the cases.

 

With my Black Powder loads, IT DOES NOT MATTER!

 

I have never noticed any ill affects from a tiny bit of One Shot Spray lube getting into the cases.

 

I dunno about Smokeless, but with Black Powder, a tiny bit of spray getting into the case does not matter.

 

I do this before setting up my dies. After a few minutes of setting up my dies, the lube is dry to the touch and ready to run through the press.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a photo of loading 44-40 with my Hornady Lock and Load AP progressive press. These happen to be shiny, brand-spanky new cases. I am about halfway through loading 200 rounds, there are 200 finished rounds in the red plastic hopper, and 200 more cases in 50 round loading blocks ready to be loaded.

 

 

 

[El Sobrante Kid]

UPDATE, 9/26

 

For those that have an interest, I did some more testing.

 

Case Lube-

1) I used Hornady One Shot as the case lube instead of Ballistol. The lube was the only change I made and everything else about the loading of the rounds was exactly the same as my earlier rounds (HP-38 and .428). The sticky, gummy residue pretty much went away.

Lesson learned, use the Hornady One Shot.

 

Powder-

2) I switched powders and used Titegroup instead of HP-38. I loaded rounds with 5.0, 5.4, 5.8, and 6.0 grains of TG powder. I still had some unburned powder, but only a fraction of the unburned powder that I had using the HP-38.

2a) As with the HP-38 loads, the most accurate Titegroup loads were with the higher volumes of powder.

2b) (unfortunately) the recoil of the Titegroup loads was noticeably much heavier across the board than with the HP-38 loads (which were surprisingly mild).

Lesson learned, try to find out what powder Black Hills Ammunition is using, LOL. It is incredibly clean and has very mild recoil.

 

Bullet-

I was originally using .428 diameter bullets because of some information that I had seen about a limitation of the Redding Profile Crimp Die. I purchased more of the same bullet from the same maker, this time sized to .429.

3) I loaded 24 rounds of the .428 bullets and 24 rounds of the .429 bullets with 5.8gr of Titegroup and the same crimp that I have used all along.

3a) Doing a side-by-side accuracy comparison at 30 feet (10 yards) the .429 bullets were more accurate in both of my guns, but only slightly.

3b) The .429 bullets do cause a slight bulge in the (Starline) case, the .428 do not.

3c) I did not see evidence that the Redding Profile Crimp Die was scraping the side(s) of the coating on the forward driving band of the .429 bullets.

3d) All of the rounds loaded into the cylinders of my two guns without any hangup.

Lesson learned, use .429 bullets.

 

Open to any thoughts, comments, suggestions, and/or ideas if you have 'em.   the Kid

[Texas Jack Black]

 Why has reloading become so complicated? It is a very simple task.

[El Sobrante Kid]

2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Why has reloading become so complicated? It is a very simple task.

 

LOL! Yes, while the physical task of reloading is actually quite simple, choosing the components to come up with an "ideal" load, is not as simple. When you add in the issues involved with trying to fill larger volume cases, it adds an additional level of complexity to those choices. If all of your reloading is currently a simple task, and was from the very beginning, congratulations.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Remember that in  cowboy loading, we are often OFF BOOK.  Not even the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook goes to as low a velocity, recoil and powder weight as many competitors want to get to.   So, not surprising that some folks have to experiment with powder selection and minimal functional charge weight.  We get to see what the ballistics techs have to face when developing new loads.  

 

Good thing we are experimenting on the low end of the power ranges, where squibs and dirty loads are the main failures.   (We could be trying to HOT ROD loads (like Elmer Keith did) where blown up guns and injury could happen.)

 

good luck, and keep all your digits and eyeballs!   GJ

 

 

Edited September 27 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

17 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

Open to any thoughts, comments, suggestions, and/or ideas if you have 'em.

 

To make meaningful comparisons you need a chronograph.  Do you have one?

[El Sobrante Kid]

1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

To make meaningful comparisons you need a chronograph.  Do you have one?

No.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

It is impossible to make recoil comparisons without knowing the velocity.  

[El Sobrante Kid]

3 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

It is impossible to make recoil comparisons without knowing the velocity.  

 

On this we will have to disagree, though you are technically correct when talking about direct comparisons. I can feel recoil. I may not be able to give you a quantitative number for direct recoil comparison across a specific velocity, but I can certainly give you a qualitative comparison. For instance, all other things being equal, 6.0gr of Titegroup has MORE felt recoil than a similar round loaded with 5.0gr of Titegroup, and I can feel that without having to know any numbers. When using the factory recommended powder charges, I can tell (feel) that the lowest load of HP-38 had less felt recoil than the lowest load of Titegroup, and that the highest load of HP-38 also had less felt recoil than the highest load of Titegroup. So yes, I can make felt recoil comparisons between those two powders, as long as we are discussing factory recommended powder charges.

 

This is not meant to be argumentative or to infer that chronographs are not extremely useful tools, they are.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

20 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

I can tell (feel) that the lowest load of HP-38 had less felt recoil than the lowest load of Titegroup, and that the highest load of HP-38 also had less felt recoil than the highest load of Titegroup.

Yes you can tell felt recoil but that is not really telling you anything.  Let us say you are using a 150 grain bullet with the "lowest" load of HP-38 and the muzzle velocity is 600 fps.  Then you take the same 150 grain bullet with the "lowest" load of Titegroup but the muzzle velocity is 750 fps.  Obviously the Titegroup load is going to have more felt recoil.  You have not really demonstrated anything.  You have not demonstrated a recoil difference between the two powders as the velocities are completely different.  But as long as you are satisfied with your results that is all that counts.

 

Post script:  Lowest of what?  Published data?  Suggestions from the wire?

Edited September 27 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Texas Jack Black]

Unique is.

[ORNERY OAF]

On 7/20/2024 at 10:09 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

HP-38 in a .45...

'

 

.45 is similar to .44-40.    To easy to double charge.   

Nobody's fault by my own.   But I'll not risk using it again in the big calibers.

Yikes, this is only one of the reasons I stick with the Holy Black!!

[El Sobrante Kid]

6 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Post script:  Lowest of what?  Published data?  Suggestions from the wire?

 

From my post, "When using the factory recommended powder charges, I can tell (feel) that the lowest load of HP-38 had less felt recoil than the lowest load of Titegroup, and that the highest load of HP-38 also had less felt recoil than the highest load of Titegroup."

[Bison Bud]

On 7/20/2024 at 5:34 PM, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

I used to use the LFCD. I recently switched over to the Redding Profile Crimp Die and I like it better. In the pic the LFCD is on the left (lead bullet), the RPCD is on the right (coated bullet). I like the crimp made by the Redding die better, especially since it removes any bulging that might be created during the crimping process. Note: the lead bullet on the left is .430 diameter, that is why the case is bulged. The coated bullet on the right is .428 diameter. Both are in Starline cases.

 

If the cartridge on the left was crimped with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, then it was not properly adjusted.  The almost flat band of the crimp indicates that the die is way too low and needs to be backed off until the crimp looks similar to the one on the right hand cartridge.  It should simply roll the case edge into the crimp groove  Good luck and good shooting to all.