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Savvy Jack

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Savvy Jack last won the day on September 2 2018

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About Savvy Jack

  • Birthday 11/10/1966

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  • SASS #
    76698

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  • Website URL
    https://www.44-40wcf.com

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    Male
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    Hickory, NC
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    https://www.44-40wcf.com

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  1. Absolutely, I like reading these experiences. Too bad you couldn't get the history, I bet it could tell some tells. I have a Marlin 1888 made in 91', wish it could talk!
  2. hehehehehehehe, yes...it fly's so it must be treated like an airplane!!! Information replied!!!
  3. Here are some photos of my Uberti 73' that have had countless Max pressure 44-40 loads shot through it with Reloder 7. Notice the unburnt skeletons. I tested 26.5gr of Reloder 7 in the 20"x 1 1/4" MGM "test" barrel with a 217gr 43-215C lead bullet. This was test #72 of 83 (ten shot groups) I performed with various loads of different powders, bullets primers cases etc. This particular load recorded 1,469 fps @ 12,971 psi ( round it up to 13,000 psi) and loose 4" groups at 100 yards. For the Winchester 73', I backed it down to 25.8gr and eventually settled for the 43-214A cast .428" (.429" bore), 220gr. Velocities are stable at 1,350fps with pressures estimated to be 11,500 psi to 12,500 psi. SAAMI max is 11,000 (MAP) psi, 11,300 psi (MPLM) and 11,700 psi (MSLM) with CCI 300 primers and Starline brass. So far, no ill results and I am grouping 4" 10 shot groups @ 100 yards. My best group was 3.30" and 3.15 MOA. Having lots of fun at 250 yards as well. I'd go further but that's the furthest range I have had available. Toggles are as tight as they were when I got the rifle and it had already been shot in CAS matches when I got it. I will continue to shoot these loads and periodically perform "100 hr" & "annual inspections" and keep you updated.!!! If I am incorrect and pressures are actually lower or higher, awesome...great news either way.. . . . . . .
  4. I used the Pressuretrace II with the strain guage glued to a 1 1/4" diameter MGM barrel set in a custom stand. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/pressure-testing I did not test Universal or Bullseye, two I wish I had tested! I have since shipped the Pressuretrace II module to Larry Gibson who also uses an Oehler to compare results on 44 Magnum loads. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/larry-gibson
  5. Thanks, I'll see what else I can find to go along with them!
  6. Can I use these photos and explanation on the 44-40 website? If so can I credit you name or remain anonymous? I would like to add it here: and would look something like this https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/stretched-brass-frames-and-damaged-toggles
  7. I agree...read this, As a reminder, SAAMI's roots trace all the way back to 1913. However, it was not until the 1970's when SAAMI started "...the three decades of transformation and modernization of the firearms and ammunition industry". This is when SAAMI started the transition from the Copper Units of Pressure (CUP) to the more modern piezoelectric transducer chamber pressure measurement system (PSI). It is also during 1976 that the 44-40 factory loads were cut down to a safety percentage below factory Max. One of the things I wanted to do was try and test original vintage factory loads and compare the pressures. At the time I was testing with the Pressuretrace strain gauge, I did not have any "reliable" amounts of vintage ammunition to test...now I do. The other problem is that the program stopped working with my laptop and I am now to understand it was probably a computer update issue. Most guys have a dedicated laptop that they never hook up to the internet. With that, I feel very confident that pre-1976 (and definitely pre-1950's) factory loads probably maxed or exceeded the 11,000psi SAAMI max loads limit. While the quality of the arms and ammunitions excelled, the "red tape" caused performance to plummet. In 1925, the major objective SAAMI was faced with was "...a major reduction of obsolete and nearly obsolete black powder and semiā€smokeless powder loads for both shotshells and metallic cartridges. When that undertaking was complete, the number of shotshell loads had been reduced by 95 percent and metallic cartridge loads by 70 percent"...according to their website. Although I have no idea when that "project" was complete, it was during the mid to late 1930's that the loads for the 44-40 were loaded so hot (Sharp even claims up to 30,000 [cup] with handloads, most even too hot for my liking! The 1930's was also the time when their High Velocity loads jumped up from a "low pressure" to 22,000 cup. By the 1940's, SAAMI claimed that "...Since that time (referring to the 1940's publishing of "The Ten Commandments of Safety"), fatal firearm accidents have decreased dramatically and are currently at historic low levels". All of this completely falls in line with what I have experienced in my testings. When SAAMI came up with 13,000 cup at some point, the 44-40 rifle performance plummeted. The 1940's is when Winchester stopped manufacturing the 44-40 High Velocity loads, and the 1970's is when Winchester neutered normal factory loads. So called High Velocity loads were still manufactured by Remington but they were nowhere near what they used to be and were basically what normal loads used to be prior to the 60's. Remington's High Velocity loads by that time were noted safe for all firearms....not true for original HV loads. Top it all off by more modern High Power rifles...it all makes sense on why the 44-40 lost popularity and was phased out. It is certainly understandable because in the mid 1970's when I was ten and started hunting, I favored the Remington 742 30-06' and has always been a favorite of mine. Although I did hunt at that time with the 44-40, it was not until later that I started to have a desire to return to the older girl and not till the advent of the internet where I was able to really dig into the history.
  8. Absolutely, this topic is not about shooting other than normal smokeless powder loads replicating original 1,350 fps chamber pressures. By all means folks, don't shoot "high pressure" loads in a 73'
  9. Thanks Colorado, I am glad you noticed it. That is exactly why I posted it. I also agree that I think what we hear is hogwash for the most part and just parroting hearsay. Doesn't mean there may be a few here or there for one reason or another. How do the strength of the toggle kits hold up? As most here may know, my armature pressure testing with the Pressuretrace system yielded most factory cas loads barely hit 6,000psi while Winchester Super-X hunting loads came in at a whopping 6,600psi. Most Lyman 49th Group I (Winchester 73' types) max loads came in at 9,300psi while most Lyman Group II (Winchester 92/Marlin 94 types) came in 15,000psi to 18,000psi...18,000psi being close to 22,000 cup. ...and we all know the 73' came out in 44 magnum as well proving the toggles are not as weak as most think in the replica 73's. On a side note, notwithstanding pressure curves, my testing of swiss FFg black powder loads (.17" compression) in original semi-balloonhead pre-1884 cases yielded 14,000psi. Those same loads in starline brass (.21" compression) yielded 8,953psi. Goes FFFg loads in early headstamp cases yielded 12,500psi while WRA headstamped cases yielded 11,001 psi. Velocities were 1,373, 1,226, 1,350 and 1,272 respectively, paralleling advertised velocities during those years. CCI 300 primers were used. Small pistol primers used in some small primer pocket cases (1,276fps). Early smokeless powder (Dupont #2 rifle powder) reported to produce even less pressures than black, to include flatter pressure curves. It seems that the higher pressures and sharper pressure curves came about with the transition into the faster burning 16gr of Sharpshooter which, if I was a betting man, would bet would be 12,000 psi to 13,500 psi (13,500 cup to 14,000 cup) loads. Sharpe - Complete Guide to Handloading, 1937 Load Data Hercules Sharpshooter Powder Revolver - 200gr Lead, 16.8gr, 905fps @ 15,000cup Rifle - 200gr JSP, 14gr, 1,260fps (Winchester factory loads had 16gr @ 1,325 fps, 1944) Rifle - 200gr JSP, 17.3gr, 1,505fps @ 14,000cup Rifle - 200gr JSP, 19.6gr, 1,680fps @ 20,000cup (maybe 18,000 psi) The 1930's seems to be were guys were pushing these 92' type rifles to their limits with up to 30,000 cup loads. That's nuts! I pushed some with 12gr of Unique (simulated double charge of 6gr) in the 1 1/4" diameter test barrel and yielded 21,786 psi ( well in excess of 22,000 cup). A double charge or even a triple charge of Bullseye could go undetected and create a bomb! Back to the toggles, I certainly don't think they are as weak as most claim. They can probably wear out but that is a different story.
  10. Any idea of the caliber or how it was being used, hunting, CAS etc?
  11. True, but my question is for examples, Thanks!
  12. This topic is not about shooting other than normal smokeless powder loads replicating original 1,350 fps chamber pressures. By all means folks, don't shoot "high pressure" loads in a 73'...work with me here... Howdy fellas, I'd like to see some detailed updates on those damage issues with the 60', 66' and 73' firearms. 1. What firearm 2. What caliber 3. Toggles - original or kit parts 4. What Loads 5. I would prefer first hand knowledge with photos and actual measurement's
  13. I have noticed on some belts, the "Dog" buckles have different designs. Can anyone elaborate on manufacture dates? Some are "squared" while others have the "notches"
  14. There are a few options from Accurate Molds. http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=14 As a reference, look first at the 43-215C. It was designed after the Lyman 427098 but utilizing a large lube groove for black powder. You can choose any existing design and have it modified to your liking or you can design your own. For CAS you probably want the 43-205C, it better replicates the large flat point you are looking for with a large lube groove.
  15. I do the same thing with the Lyman "M" die, the full base sits in the bullet. The "deformation" didn't start until after the seating process started, past or at the top of the bottom driving band.
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