Grant kills civilians

[Trigger Mike]

I’m watching Kelsey Grammers historic battles on Fox.  They are discussing Vicksburg.  Grants hope is the confederate general pemberton will give up the city for the sake of the civilians.  In the process of the siege and bombardment he kills numerous civilians in his “total war” .  His trusted subordinate General Sherman will employ the same tactics against Georgia and South Carolina.  Without civilian support, armies crumble.  

[Alpo]

And people wonder where the term damn Yankee come from.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Might be true, might be half true, might be false. Every documentary must be considered as not cut from whole cloth.

[Pat Riot]

Wait for it…

[ShadowCatcher]

39 minutes ago, Alpo said:

And people wonder where the term damn Yankee come from.

Yeah, well traditionally losers have many names for the winners, most not gracious. 

Just glad they managed to hold the union together and not let it fail.

 

YMMV,

SC

[Pat Riot]

Pretty sure there are civilian casualties in all wars. 

[Trigger Mike]

Seems like we should learn from grant and Sherman.  My wife’s grandfather 3 times over fought grant at Vicksburg and was sent home and promised to never fight again and 30 days later he was in Virginia with Lee fighting grant again and caught again.  Her family learned not to fight the government after that.  

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

How many French civilians, innocents under German conquest, died in the Normandy bombardments and the Normandy campaign? You could look it up.

 

Not to mention other civilian casualties of the war our fathers and uncles fought, over Germany and over Japan.

 

Fewer than Grant brought about, I little doubt.

[Pat Riot]

Sometimes killing civilians ends wars. Dropping 2 nukes on Japan sure took the fight right out of them, didn’t it?

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

39 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

Sometimes killing civilians ends wars. Dropping 2 nukes on Japan sure took the fight right out of them, didn’t it?

 

Great point! 

[PowderRiverCowboy]

The only way to overcome violence is overwhelming violence , but we forgot that during the BLM BS and those that swore to protect us sit by and watch  

[PowderRiverCowboy]

8 hours ago, Pat Riot said:

Wait for it…

 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

You win the war not by defeating the army, but by defeating the nation. 

[Warden Callaway]

The victor writes the history.  Our county was decidedly Confederate.  Most every man between 14 and 60 went to the south.  Some 30,000 Union troops occupied Jefferson City across the river.  They used our county as a commissary and run roughshod over the land.  "Freed" the slaves to work in their stables, kitchens,  laundry and construction projects.  Local folklore told of many atrocities.  After the war, 50% of the men were dead or disabled.  Then the government was was ran by Yankees during reconstruction.

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

9 hours ago, PowderRiverCowboy said:

The only way to overcome violence is overwhelming violence , but we forgot that during the BLM BS and those that swore to protect us sit by and watch  

Well, they were just following orders!

Hmm…where have I heard that phrase before?

[watab kid]

17 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Great point! 

i agree , but , as you may recall they were spaced out with a request that the empire surrender between , that was turned down by those in charge , 

 

not that different from where things are in gaza today 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

There is nothing "Noble" nor "Heroic" about War.  There are always "civilian" casualties.  Pointing fingers and attaching labels to leaders who are long dead and trying to make something out of nothing is a fools errand.  Those who also take a position without having a thread of experience are idiots.  If you haven't "been there, done that" you have no room for pointing fingers.  Collateral damage is a simple fact of armed conflict.  Get over it.

[Chuck Steak]

"Civilians"

Pfft...

...their taxes are what fund EVERY  war.

 

 

[Cypress Sun]

Not speaking of anything other than Gaza/Hamas.

 

The "citizens" of Gaza (not all, but the vast majority) made their choice when Hamas became their government. They have protected and supported Hamas every step of the way. There's no way that some of the "peaceful citizens" didn't know what Hamas was planning and could have stopped it before it began...they didn't. They are still protecting them by not giving their locations to the IDF. I have no doubt that some of these "citizens" also know the general locations of the hostages, maybe even the exact locations. If the "citizens" of Gaza really wanted to end this, they could...but they still don't want to give up the terrorists that brought all of this down on them.

 

Regardless of what happens, this war will create a new generation of terrorists indoctrinated the same way as the last generation. Just a never-ending continuation of hate...just like it's always been.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Citizens have always paid a heavy toll in warfare. If I remember right, 40% (mol) of all deaths in WWII were civilian deaths. That doesn't count people made homeless, destitute or the lives destroyed by the actions of their leaders. I'm sure that not all Gazan's supported Hamas, just as not all Germans supported the Nazi's, Italians supported Mussolini or Japanese supported Tojo (although their support for the Emperor was steadfast) but their fate will be the same...continued civilian deaths and destruction of their property until they STOP supporting Hamas through action, not empty words.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for Cypress Sun

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

Patriot = A soldier willing to practice total war on my side’s behalf.

 

Terrorist = A soldier willing to practice total war against my side.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

It is what it is….historically there were far worse conquerors. But of course barbarism and ignorance makes not a lasting dynasty.

But I think Sherman and Sheridan confirmed their own racist ideals in their treatment of the plains Indians,  in latter years but that’s another topic for debate…..

[Pat Riot]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:14 PM, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

Patriot = A soldier willing to practice total war on my side’s behalf.

 

Terrorist = A soldier willing to practice total war against my side.

Interesting you should bring this up. I was thinking  along the same lines. 
I recall years ago watching community college classes on public access channels. The class was Journalism 101, I believe. The instructor was giving examples of how media can paint a completely different narrative through the use of words. 
Describing a terrorist as a “freedom fighter” brings that person or group into a different light. 
I watched many of this instructor’s classes and realized his classes were all about manipulating words to drive an agenda. 

[Long Colt Luke]

“It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.”

Robert E. Lee.

Civilian casualties are definitely a part of war, but I don’t much care for Sherman (might be cause I’m from Georgia) especially his “foragers” specifically targeting civilians for resources so that Sherman didn’t have to rely on a supply line that could be disrupted by guerrillas.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:03 PM, Pat Riot said:

Pretty sure there are civilian casualties in all wars. 

My sister and BIL were horrifed when the visited Hanoi and were told the US killed civilians.

 

"WE DON'T DO THAT!!!"

 

Really? Ask the people of Berlin, Rome, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, most of North and a lot of SouthKorea, much of France, The Netherlands, Italy, Romania, North Africa, and maybe several thousand other places.....just in MY life time!  You'll find the statement to not only be false, but downright uneducated and foolish.