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For 5 minutes - YOU are King/ Queen of SASS


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29 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 All specs are listed on the Manufacturers  sites.  No need to list them here . If interested do a bit of research.

 

Best Wishes

And Q-tip manufactures recommend against using in one's ears...

 

So...are you still a Non-Shooting WIRE guy?

 

:rolleyes:

59 minutes ago, JackSlade said:

Tsss, can't handle the breeze, don't turn on the fan ;P

I have no idea what it is you're trying to say...

 

Phantom

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I have not gone through all 8 pages. So some of this may have already been posted.

And argued about.

 

Allow Blackhawks in Duelist and GFer categories. 

 

Change the ages of Sr to 60-70

And Silver Sr to 70 and up.

No other aged brakes after that. 

 

Just my opinion. 

 

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Shooting styles (must shoot age range, no option to move to a lower age range). No more shopping categories.

 

Open, Duelist, Gunfighter, Outlaw, Black

Powder-any shooting style but only age based categories for BP.


Divided into the following age groups.
 

Under 18 Buckeroo (Open only)
7-45 Cowboy

46-65 49er

66-75 Senior

76+ Silver Senior

 

Then a women’s category for each of the above.

 

42 categories.

 

 

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I agree with the Captain - the preponderence of categories is a challenge to match directors AND to shooters that are actually looking to compete (not necessarily choose their category wisely).

 

I'm going well past my 5 minute allotment; but here are a few ideas.

 

Category Definitions:

There are NO longer any "Age Based" FIRST categories.

And STYLE categories REQUIRE shooting a certain way.

 

New Categories as follows:

Cowboy/ Cowgirl:  This follows current age based descriptors with the folowing caveats.

A.  The ONLY pistol shooting style in Cowboy is TWO hand SUPPORTED - No Duelist.

B.  Because "Age Based" as a primary determiner is gone - the age breakdowns revert to what we used to use for every cat outside of age based.

Childrens catagories are untouched.

Cowboy 18 - 59

Senior Cowboy 60 up

C.  Match Directors "may" insert additional age breaks if a category has MORE than 20 shooters.

 

Soot Cowboy: All of the above shot with Blackpowder (category created as needed).

 

Duelist:  As is current - may only shoot pistols Duelist.

Age Breaks as above.

Soot Duelist: All of the above shot with Blackpowder (category created as needed).

 

Gunfighter:  May ONLY shoot Gunfighter - MD's will have to provide staging areas for any/ all split pistol stages.

Age Breaks as above.

Soot Gunpowder: All of the above shot with Blackpowder (category created as needed).

 

Classic Cowboy:

Retains all current equipment/ costuming rules.

Shooting style is required Duelist.

A pistol Power Factor of 120 is now required.

 

B-Western:

Retains all current equipment rules.

Costuming is REQUIRED fancy and FLASHY.

Eliminate the "Jeans and Wal-Mart shirt" loophole that is widely exploited.

Shooting style is required as follows:

1/4 of stages shot Supported

1/4 of stages shot Duelist

1/4 of stages shot Gunfighter

Scorekeepers will record shooting style on scoresheet to ensure compliance and tracking.  (they wanted the "versatility" now use it).

Age breaks as above.

 

Frontiersman: 

Retains all current equipment rules.

With age breaks as above.

 

EACH category has a female equivalent.

Each category has a POSSIBLE blackpowder equivalent (Soot whatever based on demand and match director discretion.  At minimum ONE STYLE Black Powder category must be offered - expansion at MD discretion.

 

IF EVERY category had participants in each category and age break.

IF EVERY category had female shooters in each category and age break.

IF EVERY category had shooters M & F in every Soot Category and age break - this would take the match to 48 categories.

BUT we know that "most" non prestige matches would never come close to this level of varied participation.  So even with a couple age expansions in Cowboy - the category list at most matches would generally be in the 20's.

 

The above actually differentiates categories. 

(also makes explaining categories to spectatorsmuch easier).

"Costume" categories (not being derogatory) would actually require and demonstrate differing skillsets (beyond attire and accessories).

 

Lastly it puts the expansion of categories in the club/ Match Directors hands based on attendance and need instead of SASS forced minimally populated categories.

 

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2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I agree with the Captain - the preponderence of categories is a challenge to match directors AND to shooters that are actually looking to compete (not necessarily choose their category wisely).

 

I'm going well past my 5 minute allotment; but here are a few ideas.

 

Category Definitions:

There are NO longer any "Age Based" FIRST categories.

And STYLE categories REQUIRE shooting a certain way.

 

New Categories as follows:

Cowboy/ Cowgirl:  This follows current age based descriptors with the folowing caveats.

A.  The ONLY pistol shooting style in Cowboy is TWO hand SUPPORTED - No Duelist.

B.  Because "Age Based" as a primary determiner is gone - the age breakdowns revert to what we used to use for every cat outside of age based.

Childrens catagories are untouched.

Cowboy 18 - 59

Senior Cowboy 60 up

C.  Match Directors "may" insert additional age breaks if a category has MORE than 20 shooters.

 

Soot Cowboy: All of the above shot with Blackpowder (category created as needed).

 

Duelist:  As is current - may only shoot pistols Duelist.

Age Breaks as above.

Soot Duelist: All of the above shot with Blackpowder (category created as needed).

 

Gunfighter:  May ONLY shoot Gunfighter - MD's will have to provide staging areas for any/ all split pistol stages.

Age Breaks as above.

Soot Gunpowder: All of the above shot with Blackpowder (category created as needed).

 

Classic Cowboy:

Retains all current equipment/ costuming rules.

Shooting style is required Duelist.

A pistol Power Factor of 120 is now required.

 

B-Western:

Retains all current equipment rules.

Costuming is REQUIRED fancy and FLASHY.

Eliminate the "Jeans and Wal-Mart shirt" loophole that is widely exploited.

Shooting style is required as follows:

1/4 of stages shot Supported

1/4 of stages shot Duelist

1/4 of stages shot Gunfighter

Scorekeepers will record shooting style on scoresheet to ensure compliance and tracking.  (they wanted the "versatility" now use it).

Age breaks as above.

 

Frontiersman: 

Retains all current equipment rules.

With age breaks as above.

 

EACH category has a female equivalent.

Each category has a POSSIBLE blackpowder equivalent (Soot whatever based on demand and match director discretion.  At minimum ONE STYLE Black Powder category must be offered - expansion at MD discretion.

 

IF EVERY category had participants in each category and age break.

IF EVERY category had female shooters in each category and age break.

IF EVERY category had shooters M & F in every Soot Category and age break - this would take the match to 48 categories.

BUT we know that "most" non prestige matches would never come close to this level of varied participation.  So even with a couple age expansions in Cowboy - the category list at most matches would generally be in the 20's.

 

The above actually differentiates categories. 

(also makes explaining categories to spectatorsmuch easier).

"Costume" categories (not being derogatory) would actually require and demonstrate differing skillsets (beyond attire and accessories).

 

Lastly it puts the expansion of categories in the club/ Match Directors hands based on attendance and need instead of SASS forced minimally populated categories.

 

Folks should have to shoot in their age category also. 

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 All nice ideas but never going to happen  shooters still have no Idea where their belly button is located and few know how to read and follow the rules  that are loosely enforced.

 

Best Wishes

Edited by Texas Jack Black
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21 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Folks should have to shoot in their age category also. 

I guess I don't understand that requirement. 

What "problem" exactly is created by allowing a 60+ year old to shoot against 25 year olds?

 

All that requiring age compliance does is force additional category creation and limit competitive options.

 

No different than requiring female shooters to shoot in female categories.

If they (the 60+ shooter or the female) feel they can compete in (what should be) a more competitive category - they should be allowed to do so.

 

Also with my suggestion of dropping a number of age breaks - the art of category cherry picking would diminish.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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6 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 All nice ideas but never going to happen  shooters still have no Idea where their belly button is located and few know how to read and follow the rules  that are loosely enforced.

 

Best Wishes

So your contention is because (you claim) folks dont folow rules now - discussion of other rules is unneeded?

 

Maybe thats a failing where you shoot - where is that again?

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3 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I guess I don't understand that requirement. 

What "problem" exactly is created by allowing a 60+ year old to shoot against 25 year olds?

 

All that requiring age compliance does is force additional category creation and limit competitive options.

 

No different than requiring female shooters to shoot in female categories.

If they (the 60+ shooter or the female) feel they can compete in (what should be) a more competitive category - they should be allowed to do so.

 

Also with my suggestion of dropping a number of age breaks - the art of category cherry picking would diminish.

If it's a legit championship and not an awards giveaway event people would need to shoot in their age group. It's been a free for all.  I once had a former overall world champion step down a category just so he would win a category because he didn't want to shoot against the reigning world champion. The guy in that category that was 4th and should have been 3rd didn't get any recognition.

Newer shooters getting beat down by older more experienced shooters is not going to keep people in the game.  

 

 

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After reading carefully all 8 pages of this thread, including my own reply, I have gotten to the point with everything I have read that, at least the folks on the Wire, believe that current SASS rules are a MAJOR cluster you know what.  

So what's the answer.  SASS paid members, NOT GUESTS, need to let SASS know why they think there certain problems in CAS that need to be addressed.  Otherwise what we think if they don't know about it is as they say "pissing in the wind." 

 

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40 minutes ago, Assassin said:

If it's a legit championship and not an awards giveaway event people would need to shoot in their age group. It's been a free for all.  I once had a former overall world champion step down a category just so he would win a category because he didn't want to shoot against the reigning world champion. The guy in that category that was 4th and should have been 3rd didn't get any recognition.

Newer shooters getting beat down by older more experienced shooters is not going to keep people in the game.  

 

 

I agree the Assassin,

The "sport" would like new and younger shooters..  So an older shooter shopped the  age category, the new shooter is beat out by a older experienced shooter who "shopped" the age category because theta older shooter was not confident she/he could "win" in their proper age category.

Age-in then age-out!

No more allowing shooters to "shop" age categories.  Let the new shooters get a "Top Ten" buckle, not the older shooter who "shopped" the buckle.

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

I agree the Assassin,

The "sport" would like new and younger shooters..  So an older shooter shopped the  age category, the new shooter is beat out by a older experienced shooter who "shopped" the age category because theta older shooter was not confident she/he could "win" in their proper age category.

Age-in then age-out!

No more allowing shooters to "shop" age categories.  Let the new shooters get a "Top Ten" buckle, not the older shooter who "shopped" the buckle.

 

 

 

 

Terrible flaw in your position.

 

Most "new shooters" are not all that young. They end up in Wrangler of 49er...or Senior. These are the three toughest categories in the game. So you don't want them to be able to play in the Cowboy category because they might...heaven forbid...get a buckle?! Please...

 

I've played in different categories. When I did, I had less chance of winning my category but I wanted the competition. 

 

Also, folks in age based can get bumped down to a Base category if the age base doesn't meet minimum entry requirements...so...

 

Phantom

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Be able to register with SASS the state in which you want to compete.  I live 20 miles north of the Nebraska-Kansas border.  I shoot 90% of my matches in Kansas not counting regional and national matches.  I would like to be able to be recognized as a state champion for my category in the state that I shoot in most of the time.

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57 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Terrible flaw in your position.

 

Most "new shooters" are not all that young. They end up in Wrangler of 49er...or Senior. These are the three toughest categories in the game. So you don't want them to be able to play in the Cowboy category because they might...heaven forbid...get a buckle?! Please...

 

I've played in different categories. When I did, I had less chance of winning my category but I wanted the competition. 

 

Also, folks in age based can get bumped down to a Base category if the age base doesn't meet minimum entry requirements...so...

 

Phantom

Allowing people to jump around in categories just continues to add to the confusion. If one doesn't start until 60 so be it.  We're not late bloomers, we've all bloomed at this point of life.  

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23 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Allowing people to jump around in categories just continues to add to the confusion. If one doesn't start until 60 so be it.  We're not late bloomers, we've all bloomed at this point of life.  

To me, it adds to the fun.

 

I truly believe that jumping around, category wise, is far from being a major issue within SASS.

 

Phantom

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19 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Shooting styles (must shoot age range, no option to move to a lower age range). No more shopping categories.

 

Open, Duelist, Gunfighter, Outlaw, Black

Powder-any shooting style but only age based categories for BP.


Divided into the following age groups.
 

Under 18 Buckeroo (Open only)
7-45 Cowboy

46-65 49er

66-75 Senior

76+ Silver Senior

 

Then a women’s category for each of the above.

 

42 categories.

 

 

So... ya don't want me givin' Ol' IC a run for his money any more huh? (HEAVY sarcasm). Ok, ok, I'll shoot my OWN category from now on... OLD, BROKEN GUY! :P

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Get back to utilizing props. That was a big factor in me starting in SASS back in 1997. Prop use can be to start a stage (holding a playing cards with both hands , tapping on a telegraph key, holding a money beg, etc. the before timer starts), or used in the middle of a stage (throwing a stick of dynamite after shooting the rifle). None of these would be used for bonus or chance but simply to add more excitement to stage design.

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16 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

So your contention is because (you claim) folks dont folow rules now - discussion of other rules is unneeded?

 

Maybe thats a failing where you shoot - where is that again?

 NO !  discussion is  needed it soothes the mind.;)

Edited by Texas Jack Black
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On 10/30/2023 at 5:44 AM, Raton Rick said:

Get back to utilizing props. That was a big factor in me starting in SASS back in 1997. Prop use can be to start a stage (holding a playing cards with both hands , tapping on a telegraph key, holding a money beg, etc. the before timer starts), or used in the middle of a stage (throwing a stick of dynamite after shooting the rifle). None of these would be used for bonus or chance but simply to add more excitement to stage design.

Rick,

at LandRun this year you started holding a prop on several stages.

 

Just shot Hot Lead this past weekend.  Same there.

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Since I don't know when to shut up...

 

Regarding the "Old" guys shooting with the young guys.

Age breaks were put in place to protect the "old" guys from the younger shooters.

 

NOT the other way around.

I have always been competitive - football, wrestling, tiddly winks - I do not play to lose.

If I get my hind end handed to me because an older shooter beats me; I'm not going to try and deflect by claiming

"Not fair - They have more experience" - that's on ME to work harder to get better.

I will not clamor or advocate to keep that person out of my category - I want to shoot against them EVERY single time.

 

Any "young" person who feels like their award was stolen away by a 60+ year old man didn't deserve the award in the first place.

 

I am 57 years old - I shoot Gunfighter - I likely will never beat Missouri Lefty.

But if we ever shoot together - I am sure going to try.

 

I am 57 years old - I shoot Gunfighter - I likely will never beat Widder.

But if we ever shoot together - I am sure going to try.

 

But what I won't do is whine when I get beat by someone better than me - no matter their age.

And I certainly don't deserve an award or a buckle if there is someone better than me that day - no matter their age.

 

I can just see the old west saloon brawl now; folks demanding that you only pick fights against folks in the same age group as your own.

Right before someone busts the chair across their back,

"How old are you again?"

"37 - why?"

"Aww, dang it - I'm over 60 - we aint allowed to fight each other"

 

 

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Howdy JEDI Creeker.

 

I'm going on faint memory, but I think when I turned 60, I shot

Silver Senior GF at the TN State and won that category.

 

Then when I turned 61, I decided to shoot just regular GF

just for the fun of it.   Dang, if I didn't win that category that

year also and some of those 'young guns' kidded me about

being a 'Cherry Picker' when I walked up to get my 1st place 

award.    I just 'humbly' laughed.

 

But that ain't always been the norm for me cause I've been

whooped a few times by Lassiter and Max Montana, who are

two of my SASS heroes.

 

If we ever get a chance to shoot together, I'll give it my best

cause I know you will be pushing me to the limit.

I also love the competition...... just ask Red Knee..... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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After reading every post on this thread and the to many categories one, using my five minutes I am going to appoint Phantom as rule’s president! Knowledgeable, reasonable and tons of experience in the game make him the obvious choice to get things done right!

besides if he is busy with this stuff maybe he will slow down a bit so I don’t keep getting my butt kicked by him:D

All in favor can I get an “oy!”

Still high on my list of favorite people!

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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If president...I'll eliminate all annoying Wire participants...oh...wait...

 

Okay, if president, I'll eliminate all annoying Wire participants that do not actually shoot CAS/SASS.

 

Too bad the person I have in mind has me blocked:rolleyes:

 

Phantom

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32 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If president...I'll eliminate all annoying Wire participants...oh...wait...

 

Okay, if president, I'll eliminate all annoying Wire participants that do not actually shoot CAS/SASS.

 

Too bad the person I have in mind has me blocked:rolleyes:

 

Phantom

You only have 5 minutes, Fantum.:D

Edited by Yul Lose
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54 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If president...I'll eliminate all annoying Wire participants...oh...wait...

 

Okay, if president, I'll eliminate all annoying Wire participants that do not actually shoot CAS/SASS.

 

Too bad the person I have in mind has me blocked:rolleyes:

 

Phantom

You can tell when someone has blocked you??

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12 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You can tell when someone has blocked you??

Oh yeah. It's like if you throw a chunk of meat into a lion's den and he ignores it...he's already eaten.

 

:rolleyes:

37 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

You only have 5 minutes, Fantum.:D

According to my wife...all I need is 10 seconds.

 

:mellow:

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