Mileage tax

[Rye Miles #13621]

https://prescottenews.com/index.php/2023/06/26/as-fuel-taxes-plummet-states-weigh-charging-by-the-mile-instead-of-the-tank-associated-press/

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

They've been talking about this for years. The primary reason is because they're not getting gas tax money from electric vehicles.

Kind of in the same vein: Some years back they decided that a certain percentage of cigarette tax money should go to "Stop Smoking" campaigns. They were so successful that after a few years of it they were complaining that so many people quit smoking that they weren't making enough on cigarette taxes.  

[John Kloehr]

3 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

They've been talking about this for years. The primary reason is because they're not getting gas tax money from electric vehicles.

Kind of in the same vein: Some years back they decided that a certain percentage of cigarette tax money should go to "Stop Smoking" campaigns. They were so successful that after a few years of it they were complaining that so many people quit smoking that they weren't making enough on cigarette taxes.  

Same folks don't understand the popularity of vaping was strongly driven by the cigarette sin tax.

 

Same folks chose to ignore the reason hybrids were so fuel efficient was from scavenging energy from braking and using it to get up to speed again. But in the interest of driving adoption, allowed free use of carpool lanes where the vehicles got the same fuel economy as a non-hybrid.

 

People bought the hybrids solely to get the carpool lane use, not for any true green reason. With successful adoption, the sticker is still available today for a $22 fee (just looked it up). Read once that part of the fee justification is due to reduced fuel tax revenue for road maintenance.

[Alpo]

I don't really mind somebody knowing how far I drive each day, or each week or each month or each year. My car insurance company has a thing where people that don't drive very much can get a break on their insurance. You attach this dohickey to your car, and it will tell them how far you drive. Since I drive less than a thousand miles a year I should get a break on my insurance. BUT --- since I know they're not going to come to my house once a month to check on that little odometer thingy, it must talk to them. And if it tells them how far I'm going, it undoubtedly tells them where I'm going. And where I'm going ain't nobody's damn business.

[Rye Miles #13621]

6 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Same folks don't understand the popularity of vaping was strongly driven by the cigarette sin tax.

 

Same folks chose to ignore the reason hybrids were so fuel efficient was from scavenging energy from braking and using it to get up to speed again. But in the interest of driving adoption, allowed free use of carpool lanes where the vehicles got the same fuel economy as a non-hybrid.

 

People bought the hybrids solely to get the carpool lane use, not for any true green reason. With successful adoption, the sticker is still available today for a $22 fee (just looked it up). Read once that part of the fee justification is due to reduced fuel tax revenue for road maintenance.

$100 license fee for Hybrid and $200 for EV in Ohio 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Been predicting this for several years. Economic truth….. if you want to curb usage of something, tax it. 
Right now the bulk of road revenues come from taxes on fuel for ICE powered vehicles. 
Since I don’t own an EV I don’t know for sure how much they pay for registration or public charging but it is certain they don’t pay any fuel taxes. 
As long as any proposed mileage tax takes into consideration that the “evil” ICE vehicles have already paid for the existing road system and are currently paying most of the taxes for our roads, when the proposed mileage tax levies an equivalent amount of taxation on the EV’s I might consider it. 
One big stumbling block for me is the concept that my car will need to be monitored by some as yet unnamed federal agency. Just a guess but most likely I will have to pay for the device initially, and show some kind of compliance with the results at registration time. Not saying I am not being tracked by the government now (if you have a phone you are or can be) but I have reached my limit as to how much government I can take. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Cypress Sun]

20 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

They've been talking about this for years. The primary reason is because they're not getting gas tax money from electric vehicles.

Kind of in the same vein: Some years back they decided that a certain percentage of cigarette tax money should go to "Stop Smoking" campaigns. They were so successful that after a few years of it they were complaining that so many people quit smoking that they weren't making enough on cigarette taxes.  

 

Well that... and the ones that don't quit die young.

 

 

So far as the mileage tax...tax the EV or hybrid upon sale. Same for a fossil fuel vehicle. Initial owner pays the tax. 

 

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

6 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

So far as the mileage tax...tax the EV or hybrid upon sale. Same for a fossil fuel vehicle. Initial owner pays the tax. 

Now you just STOP making sense here. The government will have NONE of that!

[DeaconKC]

If the gov't will eliminate fuel taxes, then I have no problem paying a mileage tax.

[Alpo]

Now how is that sensible?

 

Joe buys a car. Drives the average of a thousand miles a month - 12,000 miles a year.

 

Fred buys a car. Fred lives in Texas. Drives 3,000 miles a month - 36,000 miles a year.

 

I buy a car. As I mentioned on up the thread, I average a thousand miles a year. Not a month - a year.

 

Joe, Fred and I all get charged the same mileage tax. Why? Because it's easier to charge everybody when you buy the car. They guess how much mileage you will put on it and they charge you for that. So Joe pays what he should, Fred only pays a third, and I pay twelve times as much as I owe.

 

And that is making sense? For who?

[Blackwater 53393]

My vehicle insurance company sent a pair of electronic devices that connect to the ECM on my vehicles.  I sent them back with a note that said that they have no need to know how far or how fast I drive or, if their gimmick is capable of recognizing destinations, where I go.

 

 I turned off the location tracking on my cell phones.  I’m doubtful that it did much good as far as any possible, (read that probable) government data gathering and I blocked the cameras on my computers as well.  I figure, why make it any easier than I have to.

 

I haven’t bought a new, (to me) vehicle in seven years and I am not likely to do so unless at absolute dire need. 
 

They aren’t rusting and I can repair or rebuild my vehicles myself, economically and reliably, for the foreseeable future and can and will build my own if necessary.

 

My insurance went up a little when the year had passed and went up again by a little a few years later, but I figure that I have saved many times what the increase amounts to by not paying sales taxes on another vehicle, I’ve avoided larger rate increases by preventing them from tracking my distances and my propensity for excessive speed, and I have denied any other snoopers that avenue to spy on me. All of this without doing much of anything!!

 

 

[Texas Joker]

Fuel tax to pay for roads. .gov declares vehicles MUST get x mpg.  .gov confused by drop in fuel tax income.??? .gov declares that to save environment must get X² MPG. Even more confused by drop in fuel tax.

 

Fuel is taxed at purchase.  I have filed IFTA so many times I fail to feel sorry for four wheelers

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Since I don’t own an EV I don’t know for sure how much they pay for registration or public charging but it is certain they don’t pay any fuel taxes. 

 

I just ran the California DMV estimate for our 2019 Leaf, which we got last Nov. when we swapped out our leased Leaf.  Came out to about $400.   A new Tesla is about $700.

 

Charging at a public commercial Level 3 fast charger would run about $15 for 150 miles of charge.  For a comparison, in 2021, with gas at $3.25 or so, we were paying close to $300/month for fuel with a 2000 Tundra.  It dropped to about $40 per month with the Leaf for the same, or slightly more, miles driven.  Likely about 10% more miles as we did more "let's go for a drive" driving.

Gas had been over $6 for a while here.  Now it's down to about $5.25.  Maybe $4.95 if you shop around.

 

 

 

 

[Pat Riot]

My idea is to tax all the politicians by the word, written and spoken. Also we can add inane hand gestures to their tax. 
 

Please note that these same douchebags that want more taxes for cars want more lanes for bicycles yet they won’t tax them by the mile. 

[sassnetguy50]

My obdii is already in use.  Older vehicles don't have one, nor do other machines.  

 

Some states do charge more for vehicle registration of electric vehicles than ICE vehicles.

[Subdeacon Joe]

I just ran the registration fee for our car when we move to KY, ~$1700.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

6 hours ago, DeaconKC said:

If the gov't will eliminate fuel taxes, then I have no problem paying a mileage tax.

The government eliminating a tax? Maybe repackage and expand its reach under a different name.

[Sedalia Dave]

7 hours ago, Alpo said:

Now how is that sensible?

 

Joe buys a car. Drives the average of a thousand miles a month - 12,000 miles a year.

 

Fred buys a car. Fred lives in Texas. Drives 3,000 miles a month - 36,000 miles a year.

 

I buy a car. As I mentioned on up the thread, I average a thousand miles a year. Not a month - a year.

 

Joe, Fred and I all get charged the same mileage tax. Why? Because it's easier to charge everybody when you buy the car. They guess how much mileage you will put on it and they charge you for that. So Joe pays what he should, Fred only pays a third, and I pay twelve times as much as I owe.

 

And that is making sense? For who?

 

The Government... Who else. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

8 hours ago, Alpo said:

Now how is that sensible?

 

Joe buys a car. Drives the average of a thousand miles a month - 12,000 miles a year.

 

Fred buys a car. Fred lives in Texas. Drives 3,000 miles a month - 36,000 miles a year.

 

I buy a car. As I mentioned on up the thread, I average a thousand miles a year. Not a month - a year.

 

Joe, Fred and I all get charged the same mileage tax. Why? Because it's easier to charge everybody when you buy the car. They guess how much mileage you will put on it and they charge you for that. So Joe pays what he should, Fred only pays a third, and I pay twelve times as much as I owe.

 

And that is making sense? For who?

 

From reading the article I'm not seeing where everyone pays, for example, $400/year.  If I'm reading it correctly they are all paying the same 2¢/mile or whatever the tax is.

 

 

[Bitterroot Jake, SASS #9532]

7 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

I just ran the registration fee for our car when we move to KY, ~$1700.

In KY when you bring a vehicle from another, you pay sales tax on the taxable valve of that vehicle when it is registered the first time and property taxes on it yearly.

[Subdeacon Joe]

20 minutes ago, Bitterroot Jake, SASS #9532 said:

In KY when you bring a vehicle from another, you pay sales tax on the taxable valve of that vehicle when it is registered the first time and property taxes on it yearly.

 

No Usage Tax?

 

I'm confused.

From the Fayette County site :

How will Road Usage Tax be calculated?

A 6% Kentucky road usage tax is collected on the retail price. The retail price is either the purchase price or 90% of MSRP. If taxing on the purchase price, the seller must disclose the purchase price on the application (TC96-182), sign as seller and have notarized (See Example). If taxing on MSRP, the manufacturer to dealer invoice or window sticker must be provided.

Fees:

 

Title fee:	$   9.00
Clerk fee:	$   6.00
Plate fee:	$ 21.00 annual registration
VIN inspection:	$   5.00
Lien filing fee if applicable:	$ 22.00
Late lien filing penalty if applicable:	$   2.00

[Alpo]

31 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

From reading the article I'm not seeing where everyone pays, for example, $400/year.  If I'm reading it correctly they are all paying the same 2¢/mile or whatever the tax is.

 

I was not commenting on the article. I was commenting on these two posts.

 

 

9 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

So far as the mileage tax...tax the EV or hybrid upon sale. Same for a fossil fuel vehicle. Initial owner pays the tax. 

 

9 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Now you just STOP making sense here. The government will have NONE of that!

"Tax the purchaser when he buys the car."

"That suggestion makes sense."

 

If you tax the purchaser when he buys the car, you are having to tax him on what you are guessing he will do. Not what he will do - what he might do.

[Cypress Sun]

7 minutes ago, Alpo said:

 

I was not commenting on the article. I was commenting on these two posts.

 

 

 

"Tax the purchaser when he buys the car."

"That suggestion makes sense."

 

If you tax the purchaser when he buys the car, you are having to tax him on what you are guessing he will do. Not what he will do - what he might do.

 

That is correct. I don't think that the gov calls it guessing though. Almost all assessed taxes are based on estimated income required by the government to run the country, county, city, province or whatever...in other words, what they MIGHT do or need. Look at your property tax bill. There is all kinds of taxes that you pay that are assessed for such things as public transportation/schools/health dept/library service/juvenile welfare board/etc...all stuff that I (probably you also) don't use but pay for...in fact, the taxes for schools make up about 40% of the bill.  Petroleum/mileage based taxes are no different.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not an advocate for more taxes but I am also not an advocate for governmental intrusion into my personal life by forcing me to use an electronic tracking/recording device on my privately owned vehicle or any other means. I turned off locating features on my cell phone and do not (will not) own a vehicle with tracking devices in it.

 

You wouldn't be the only one to get the short end of the stick. I bought my vehicle, new, 24 years ago and have driven it approximately 140,000 miles, roughly 5,600 miles a year.  I would get screwed. I know people that drive well over 140,000 miles a year. They would be ahead of the game.

Most vehicle leases/warranties/etc., are based upon the vehicle being driven 10,000 miles a year. The same could be done with new vehicle sales based upon the projected life of the vehicle.

 

There is no perfect solution to the government's dilemma of lost taxes due to electric vehicles...but I'll be damned if they'll force me to install one of the trackers featured in the article that Rye provided.

 

 

[Rip Snorter]

Simply, they don't want us to have mobility.  We are supposed to be packed into charming, soviet style 15 minute cities.  Look at the WEF and their demands to vastly reduce the number of private vehicles in the name of saving the World.  The cost being all personal freedom and enormous reduction in lifestyle to solve an environmental crisis that is not only unproven, but which has never behaved disastrously as predicted since I first encountered it in school in the '50's.  According to many of those predictions, humanity should be long gone.  Think P.T. Barnum.

[watab kid]

government never met a tax they didnt like and they never give them up , its all about taking your money to spend as they see fit , so im against all taxes , just sayin , but isnt it funny how the do gooders trying to change your lifestyle to what they think you should be doing often outsmart themselves with their grand plans like that cigarette tax thing ? 

 

now they are pushing us to electric cars so , like our state , they needed to increase the gas tax to maintain the revenue stream [thieving of our money] 

[Pat Riot]

I wonder if this mileage tax will carry over into air travel?

 

@Rip Snorteris absolutely correct regarding these “15 minute cities”. In CA I worked for the large public transit agency in LA County. I have attended meetings with city people bobble heads that glowingly espouse this Marxist utopian drivel.  

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

another way to take from producers and give to NON producers 

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Folks It is all about Control...

[John Kloehr]

16 hours ago, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

The government eliminating a tax? Maybe repackage and expand its reach under a different name.

Texas just eliminated annual vehicle inspections but kept the tax for them. No repackage, and no expansion under a different name.

 

I guess Texans should be happy to not have to do the inspections they are still paying for. I'm sure the government will find a use for the revenue.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

10 hours ago, watab kid said:

now they are pushing us to electric cars so , like our state , they needed to increase the gas tax to maintain the revenue stream [thieving of our money] 

While at the same time, not only refusing to build more electricity producing infrastructure, but asking owners of said EVs NOT to charge their cars during certain times because there isn't enough infrastructure to support their doing so.

[John Kloehr]

Gasoline was originally a waste product from making kerosene. Kerosene was the main fuel for lighting at the time.

 

Those who bought cars would get gasoline from feed and hardware stores (and some pharmacies) and store it at home. This was "reasonable" and modeled the infrastructure for feeding horses (and getting kerosene).

 

As cars became more popular, there were significant infrastructure stresses. Gasoline was far more volatile than hay, what was a waste product became a product in demand, building tanker trucks to deliver gasoline to homes lagged behind demand.

 

The first gas station showed up around 1910 and a completely new infrastructure had to be built around delivering fuel to more places. This then led to not storing fuel at homes or needing to take extra fuel on long trips.

 

At the same time, another trend was happening. Used horses dropped in value for a while, then suddenly they went up in value! They were needed to make hide glue for the furniture industry. But then the supply of dead (or even living but old) horses started to dry up.

 

Glue became so expensive, the industry response was to develop synthetic adhesives. These became cheaper than hide glue and the price of horses plummeted. The price of carcasses went so low that those still using horses would leave them where they fell in the road; removal became a cost to government.

 

Just some background trivia, food for thought when thinking about the change to EVs. We do have an infrastructure which delivers electricity to homes. But it is not at the scale needed to charge vehicles. The upgrade has to replace almost all of the current gasoline infrastructure in the developed world. And the replacement has to happen fast enough to meet demand at the same time slow enough to not create shortages or other impacts on the economy.

 

Our gasoline-powered vehicles today are like the horses from a century ago. There is a lot of supply chain in building them, maintaining them, and in disposing of (recycling) them.

 

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

3 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Just some background trivia, food for thought when thinking about the change to EVs. We do have an infrastructure which delivers electricity to homes. But it is not at the scale needed to charge vehicles. The upgrade has to replace almost all of the current gasoline infrastructure in the developed world. And the replacement has to happen fast enough to meet demand at the same time slow enough to not create shortages or other impacts on the economy.

That's the problem right there!!

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

Our gasoline-powered vehicles today are like the horses from a century ago. There is a lot of supply chain in building them, maintaining them, and in disposing of (recycling) them.

I can't say that I agree with your analogy. Gas powered vehicles are a LONG way from being replaced by EVs. And I can't say that I've ever heard of dead cars being used as glue. Cars can be recycled, but there's a lot more to it than just rendering down a carcass. 

Even if you analogy DOES hold true, a hundred years ago we didn't have government agencies both mandating that we get rid of horses and at the same time preventing our use of gas powered vehicles by refusing to build gas refining facilities.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Texas just eliminated annual vehicle inspections but kept the tax for them. No repackage, and no expansion under a different name.

 

I guess Texans should be happy to not have to do the inspections they are still paying for. I'm sure the government will find a use for the revenue.

All of these agencies, departments and taxes are instruments of extorting money from taxpayers while being sold as beneficial or for the common good. Don’t get me wrong. There are essential services needed, but I’d guess there is a 30-50% I efficiency rate in the name “creating jobs. This in itself establishes a reliable dependent voter base, thus expanding power. Politics and bureaucracies operate to create their own self sustaining, self enriching markets and market forces. It’s a mix of fascism, capitalism and socialism we live under.

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I can't say that I agree with your analogy. Gas powered vehicles are a LONG way from being replaced by EVs. And I can't say that I've ever heard of dead cars being used as glue. Cars can be recycled, but there's a lot more to it than just rendering down a carcass. 

Even if you analogy DOES hold true, a hundred years ago we didn't have government agencies both mandating that we get rid of horses and at the same time preventing our use of gas powered vehicles by refusing to build gas refining facilities.

The facts are different, the analogies still apply to fundamental technological change and unexpected consequences.

 

One of the factors holding back economical nuclear power is actually lack of demand. This may be one of the drivers behind reducing the use of natural gas for heat and conversion from gasoline to electric vehicles. The economics show these additional demands would make it possible to scale nuclear power economically.

 

Scaled nuclear power shows promise to be much less expensive than current energy sources, but not at all the "too cheap to meter" promise from decades ago.

 

Managing any transition is fraught with risk, particularly since some transitions happen without planning. Cell service was never expected to have near universal adoption. As a result, phone lines were still being strung that would never be used. And they were not good enough to carry Internet traffic. A pretty big government bailout saved them. Well, not the wires so much as the bonds financing them. The new phone lines would never bring in enough revenue to pay off the bonds, and those bonds were a big part of managed retirement funds.

 

Now take the analogy of an investment not paying off. Assume a gas station needs to operate for 20 years to break even (I just guessed at the number). Assume the conversion to EVs is planned to happen so fast, the gas station will go broke in 10 years. Only a fool would build that gas station.

 

Well, one common prediction is that half of all cars sold in the US will be electric around 2040. The average life of a car is currently 12 years. By 2050, we will not need at least half of the gas stations we currently have.

 

And so slowly having circled back to the topic (mileage tax), in about 30 years half the amount of road tax collected from gasoline sales will be gone. A per-kilowatt-hour tax on electricity going into cars is a logical replacement. A flat annual fee is not logical.

 

No system will be completely fair to everyone. I pay more tax per mile than the owner of an econobox.

 

 

I pay about double per mile. Those driving EVs should pay some reasonably fair share to share the road with me.