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Tennessee williams
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I'm still hung up on the number of shots in a shooting string.  When the stage instructions tell us what to do with each gun, that would seem to me to be defining a required shooting string. 

If that's not the case I foresee two things for the near future.  1. To shoot a stage more efficiently, I will split a string that requires movement.  2. The spotters will get into arguments about whether or not I can do that.  :)

Edited by Fretless
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50 minutes ago, Fretless said:

I'm still hung up on the number of shots in a shooting string.  When the stage instructions tell us what to do with each gun, that would seem to me to be defining a required shooting string. 

If that's not the case I foresee two things for the near future.  1. To shoot a stage more efficiently, I will split a string that requires movement.  2. The spotters will get into arguments about whether or not I can do that.  :)

Watch out for that all important 'then' in the stage instructions.

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13 hours ago, Fretless said:

So, you are saying that any time the stage instructions say rifle not last, it is ok to split any, or all, shooting strings, so long as the last shot fired is from a pistol or shotgun?  That there is no obligation to complete one sequence before starting the next?  

The rules seem clear that once you fire the next type of gun the shooting string is over.  Even in a "rifle not last" stage the number of shots in each string are defined.   Changing a 10 shot string into an 8 shot string, and a separate 2 shot string is not following stage directions. 

As there was no order on the targets or firearms beyond that one caveat of "rifle not last", then yes, the shooter could be as creative (read slow...) as they desired.  Not recommended, as it makes it hard for TO & Spotters to follow along and make good calls.  Also makes it hard for the shooter to keep their wits about them as to what they've shot and what yet needs to be done without breaking any other rules.  Gotta watch for that word "then" in the instructions as that also indicates order.

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28 minutes ago, Griff said:

As there was no order on the targets or firearms beyond that one caveat of "rifle not last", then yes, the shooter could be as creative (read slow...) as they desired.  Not recommended, as it makes it hard for TO & Spotters to follow along and make good calls.  Also makes it hard for the shooter to keep their wits about them as to what they've shot and what yet needs to be done without breaking any other rules.  Gotta watch for that word "then" in the instructions as that also indicates order.

I've been blessed with a shortage of wits, so when things get hairy it doesn't take me long to gather my few wits together and proceed!

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4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Watch out for that all important 'then' in the stage instructions.

If the stage writer gives us a single instruction that would require 10 shots, we don't need the word "then" to define that as a single 10 shot string do we?

Example:

Put 10 rounds on 2 targets

Perform a Lawrence Welk sweep (4 targets in description)

 Or

"engage the pistol targets with 2 rounds each" (when there are 5 pistol targets)

 

I apologize for being stubborn, or maybe just dense, but the logic for being able to create multiple smaller shooting strings flys in the face of the way we actually understand and shoot stages.  A common occurrence might be when shotgun is shot from two locations with a rifle shooting location in the middle.  Invariably, the question will be asked "can we split the shotgun?". According to this thread, there is no need for that question. 

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35 minutes ago, Fretless said:

If the stage writer gives us a single instruction that would require 10 shots, we don't need the word "then" to define that as a single 10 shot string do we?

Example:

Put 10 rounds on 2 targets

Perform a Lawrence Welk sweep (4 targets in description)

 Or

"engage the pistol targets with 2 rounds each" (when there are 5 pistol targets)

 

I apologize for being stubborn, or maybe just dense, but the logic for being able to create multiple smaller shooting strings flys in the face of the way we actually understand and shoot stages.  A common occurrence might be when shotgun is shot from two locations with a rifle shooting location in the middle.  Invariably, the question will be asked "can we split the shotgun?". According to this thread, there is no need for that question. 

You can absolutely tell the TO how you intend to shoot a stage if different than what most people would think if you don’t want to confuse the TO and Spotters. As for the shotgun in this case you do not have to ask if you can split them as the only gun order is Rifle not last. 
 

Randy

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Split strings used to be more common but in our quest for ultimate speed, we have gone to no splits at all, even pistol and when someone writes one or is given general instruction and decides to do one, we have problems with it. I like to write stages that give folks choices so they can shoot the stage in a way that best suits their own style and right or left-handedness (mostly because I shoot long guns left-handed). I love to give options and see what folks come up with.

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26 minutes ago, Fretless said:

If the stage writer gives us a single instruction that would require 10 shots, we don't need the word "then" to define that as a single 10 shot string do we?

Example:

Put 10 rounds on 2 targets

Perform a Lawrence Welk sweep (4 targets in description)

 Or

"engage the pistol targets with 2 rounds each" (when there are 5 pistol targets)

 

I apologize for being stubborn, or maybe just dense, but the logic for being able to create multiple smaller shooting strings flys in the face of the way we actually understand and shoot stages.  A common occurrence might be when shotgun is shot from two locations with a rifle shooting location in the middle.  Invariably, the question will be asked "can we split the shotgun?". According to this thread, there is no need for that question. 

You're not stubborn or dense!!  I'll preface my remarks by saying I'm no longer an RO Instructor, so I'm not as 'in the loop' as others and subject to error.


Typically we get instructions that say, with gun x engage targets thusly, THEN with gun y engage targets so and so.  With those instructions you'll pick up a P if you did what the OP did.  We also typically have a shooting order for each target array, which could also cause a P in this situation depending upon how the instructions are written. 

 

However, since it's a round count, as long as each target gets the right number of rounds you're good to go, ignoring gun sequence.   

 

With respect to gun sequence, the only requirement is that rifle not be last, any other sequence is acceptable.  Theoretically TW, excuse me the unknown shooter, Could have fired a shot from a pistol moved and fired a shot from his rifle, fired a shotgun round and repeated that sequence so long as he saved one non-rifle round for his final shot.

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38 minutes ago, Fretless said:

 

Example:

Put 10 rounds on 2 targets

Perform a Lawrence Welk sweep (4 targets in description)

Hey Fretless, these^ are two different scenarios that in my opinion shouldn't be lumped together. One is a sweep and the other is a round count. To me, and this is just my opinion. The sweep implies that it should be completed before moving on. Much the same as "put 2 rds on t1, then put 3 rds on t2, then put 3 rds on t3, then put 2 rds on t4.

I've just blown my next wtc post.

 

38 minutes ago, Fretless said:

I apologize for being stubborn, or maybe just dense, but the logic for being able to create multiple smaller shooting strings flys in the face of the way we actually understand and shoot stages.  A common occurrence might be when shotgun is shot from two locations with a rifle shooting location in the middle.  Invariably, the question will be asked "can we split the shotgun?". According to this thread, there is no need for that question. 

On MY stages I usually include a "reminder" that sg can be split as written. Unless I have a gun order that would prevent them from splitting it such as p,r,sg or sg,r,p etc.

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I keep hearin' this "split" thing and TW and it all makes sense...

He probly (if it WAS him) just gave the TO a wink and said "hold my nanner split and watch this".

And the rest is history

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631
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For those who are having an issue with the stage instruction being broken up into pieces instead of a whole.

Try this on for size.

 

Lets use pizza as an analogy.

If I ask you to bring me a pizza from Pizza Hut - I am asking for a complete item assembled in a given order from a specific origin.

This is comparable to saying shoot a such and such sweep from this location.

 

If I just ask you to bring me the ingredients to make a pizza - then you are free to go to Krogers and buy sauce, Piggly Wiggly for the pepperoni, return to Krogers for mozzarella cheese, Ralphs for crust ingredients and back to Piggly Wiggly yet again for parmesan.

At the completion of the task - you have done what was asked for.

This is comparable to a round count stage with no assigned order.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Pizza!  Now we're Talkin!!

 

Amazing that the shooter made it through in such a manor with no actual penalty!

No call.

 

But a good "performance" to discuss to remind us of the rules.

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2 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I keep hearin' this "split" thing and TW and it all makes sense...

He probly (if it WAS him) just gave the TO a wink and said "hold my nanner split and watch this".

And the rest is history

Rainmaker, Ole TW ain’t never told anyone to hold his nanner split, once he gets gets a nanner split he ain’t about to let go until he is finished, the stage will just have to wait!:D:P:rolleyes:

 

Randy

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Stage writers shall now have to be lawyers, so there can NEVER be anybody shooting a stage differently than any of the other shooters.  Stage descriptions will now be 4 pages long, with every shooter on the posse signing that they understand how the stage has to be shot. 

Anyone who shoots it differently will be stoned, and I don't mean 1960's stoned.

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1 hour ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Stage writers shall now have to be lawyers, so there can NEVER be anybody shooting a stage differently than any of the other shooters.  Stage descriptions will now be 4 pages long, with every shooter on the posse signing that they understand how the stage has to be shot. 

Anyone who shoots it differently will be stoned, and I don't mean 1960's stoned.

What's wrong with shooting the stage different? And nothing has changed that I know of. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

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30 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Stage writers shall now have to be lawyers, so there can NEVER be anybody shooting a stage differently than any of the other shooters.  Stage descriptions will now be 4 pages long, with every shooter on the posse signing that they understand how the stage has to be shot. 

Anyone who shoots it differently will be stoned, and I don't mean 1960's stoned.

Why?  Nothing in the OP changed a rule, or even changed how to interpret a rule.  It did point out that an "out-of-the-box"thinker may come the line and really challenge our ability to spot & make fair calls.  Any round count stage opens that opportunity.  The simple fact that someone chose to shoot this stage differently than 99% of the other competitors doesn't alter its fairness.  Some folks love the freedom to "do their own thing" when it comes to shooting a stage, others... not so much.     

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I'm thinking Lone Spur Jake was using sarcasm. :D

 

A very good thread and conversation here, TW. Thanks for being inventive. Sometimes different is good and when it gets people thinking and doing "out of the box" I'm voting for WELL DONE and I don't mean steak. ;)

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2 hours ago, Uncle Ethan # 94321 said:

From what I have read here, I'm guessing some really like spotting a round count stage for Outlaws, and few Gunfighters. ;)

I love round count stages. Especially no double tap round counts. 

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Sorry folks, should have said at the end that I was being completely sarcastic.  But, where has common sense, and just playing by the way the rules are written  gone.  I have seen many IJAFG buttons on shooters hats, suspenders, gun carts, etc. over the last 5 or 6 years.  How much money or monetary prizes are we shooting for each match we shoot?  We used to kid around at big matches years ago with "really intense shooters that had to win" that don't get upset if you don't win "the pickup truck with the attached Bass boat",   So I gave away a toy pickup truck with attached Bass boat to the top shooter at a state championship years ago and he was happier with it than the state championship trophy. 

Lighten up folks and enjoy the time you have left to play "our game."   Every year we loose so many of our CAS friends to health issues and death. 

Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth.  That's the real Cowboy way.

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2 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Sorry folks, should have said at the end that I was being completely sarcastic.  But, where has common sense, and just playing by the way the rules are written  gone.  I have seen many IJAFG buttons on shooters hats, suspenders, gun carts, etc. over the last 5 or 6 years.  How much money or monetary prizes are we shooting for each match we shoot?  We used to kid around at big matches years ago with "really intense shooters that had to win" that don't get upset if you don't win "the pickup truck with the attached Bass boat",   So I gave away a toy pickup truck with attached Bass boat to the top shooter at a state championship years ago and he was happier with it than the state championship trophy. 

Lighten up folks and enjoy the time you have left to play "our game."   Every year we loose so many of our CAS friends to health issues and death. 

Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth.  That's the real Cowboy way.

Can't argue with that. I have as much fun winning overall at a match as I do coming in toward the end of the page. 

Unless I do stupid stuff. Stupid is no fun:P

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2 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

But, where has common sense, and just playing by the way the rules are written  gone. 

Lighten up folks and enjoy the time you have left to play "our game." 

I think that's what TW was indicating...

 

For all that say that the "game" has gone away or that they cannot be entertained by todays matches - TW was showing legal methods to do something just for fun.

 

I have plenty of trophies and buckles - sometimes being silly is the only reason to go shoot.

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Ask yourself, did the shooter satisfy the stage instructions as written and explained? As TW shot it, yes he did. No call. Bad stage instructions yes, but if he kept it together through the string then he did well.

If I am going to call a penalty on a shooter I have to actually have a rule to cite. I cant say "well that is just common sense" Another TO may not be that common.

Really cant decide how that would effect a GF. There are arguments on both sides.

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1 hour ago, Tn Tombstone said:

Ask yourself, did the shooter satisfy the stage instructions as written and explained? As TW shot it, yes he did. No call. Bad stage instructions yes, but if he kept it together through the string then he did well.

If I am going to call a penalty on a shooter I have to actually have a rule to cite. I cant say "well that is just common sense" Another TO may not be that common.

Really cant decide how that would effect a GF. There are arguments on both sides.

What specifically was bad about the instruction?

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10 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Can't argue with that. I have as much fun winning overall at a match as I do coming in toward the end of the page. 

Unless I do stupid stuff. Stupid is no fun:P

The very first thing I'd do if I'm spotting for you is ask the question "Were any chickens harmed during the stage?" If the answer is no, then I'll apply the SHB to what you "performed" during the stage.  If any chickens were harmed why we'd just have to shut everything down and have us a chicken fry! :lol:

 

Kajun

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

What specifically was bad about the instruction?

I was wondering the same thing.  The instruction seems clear to me, the shooter just got discombobulated.  Brain fade can happy on any stage even with precise and detailed instruction.

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8 minutes ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

I was wondering the same thing.  The instruction seems clear to me, the shooter just got discombobulated.  Brain fade can happy on any stage even with precise and detailed instruction.

The beauty of it is the simple instructions allowed the shooter to still complete the stage without a penalty.

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