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Slam Firing '97


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I have mostly shot SxS's, but have a few '97's and have been shooting it a little more lately.  Watching the fast '97 shooters, it LOOKS like they are slam firing, though I'm not sure.   I only tried slam firing a single time.  It was my 30" full choke model and I was testing the ejection before a match.  Decided to try slam firing.  Well, I missed 5 of 6 targets.  Not as easy as it looked.  :)

 

So the first question should be, is it really faster to shoot it that way?  And if so, I am wondering how one goes about learning it. In particular, shooters who did not slam fire, and then wanted to transisiton to doing it.   Is it just simply slowing down and making sure the sight is on the target before closing the slide, then slowly speeding up?  Or any other tips?  Do you basically hold down the trigger from the time you pick up the gun (this would assume not loading with the strong hand).  Does dry fire practice help with this (hard to tell if you are hitting the target or not)?

 

I know that practicing getting the shells into the chamber by whichever method is the best way to increase speed and I am actually doing a little bit of the evil 'P' word, but I am curious about the slamming.

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Some faster shooters do slam fire but as they move the slide forward, they make certain it is pointed properly and hold the gun tightly to stay on target.

Many other are just fast with the trigger.

 

It is fun to slam fire, but there is a little risk. 

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I rarely miss with my 97’s but when I do it’s when I slam fire.

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16 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I rarely miss with my 97’s but when I do it’s when I slam fire.

This needs to be a "World's most interesting man" meme. :lol:

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Of the 97's shooters I have ask, there seems to be many that do slam fire, but a respectable amount don't slam fire.

 

And it seems to be that way whether the shooter is fast or not-so-fast.

 

I have 3 'Dry Fire Practice' videos on YouTube.  Check em out if you want.

 

P.S. - I slam fire and find I have a high degree of success when I point LOW on the target as I'm pushing the action closed.

 

..........Widder

 

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I shot a 97 for years and was asked at least once if I was slamming firing it.  I wasn't, but I had I used a 97 long enough that I could both hear and feel the gun lock up.  This let me pull the trigger as soon as it went into battery.

 

I tried slam firing once or twice and didn't hit a thing.

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4 hours ago, Rip Snorter said:

It is hard on the gun, but slam firing a '97 can be pretty effective for close work with a bit of practice.

The 97 was designed to be slam fired... But I'm sure you knew that;)

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For me loading a shell, pushing the forearm forward, pulling the forearm back and grabbing more shells all take much more time than pulling a trigger.

I never slam fire, and I shoot a 97 cause I am more accurate than I am with my SxS.

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50 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The 97 was designed to be slam fired... But I'm sure you knew that;)

 

I have never heard that.

 

Just to be sure, are you saying the '97 was specifically designed so that it could be slam fired?  Or was that just a happy accident of the design?  It just seems odd to me that any gun (other than a fully automatic one) would be designed specifically so that it could be slam fired as opposed to having some type of sear disconnect.

 

It might could be I just learnt something.

 

Oh, yeah, why would they (JMB) want to do that?

 

Angus

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22 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

I have never heard that.

 

Just to be sure, are you saying the '97 was specifically designed so that it could be slam fired?  Or was that just a happy accident of the design?  It just seems odd to me that any gun (other than a fully automatic one) would be designed specifically so that it could be slam fired as opposed to having some type of sear disconnect.

 

It might could be I just learnt something.

 

Oh, yeah, why would they (JMB) want to do that?

 

Angus

Designed that way.

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58 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Designed that way.

I don't believe that.  I'm sure it was just an accident of design.  Why in 1897 would they build a shotgun for the average citizen to be shot that way?

I believe in the old saying that you perform the way you practice, if you practice by pulling the trigger first, I think it will only be a matter of time before you pull the trigger when you didn't mean to.

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21 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

I don't believe that.  I'm sure it was just an accident of design.  Why in 1897 would they build a shotgun for the average citizen to be shot that way?

I believe in the old saying that you perform the way you practice, if you practice by pulling the trigger first, I think it will only be a matter of time before you pull the trigger when you didn't mean to.

Funny... Believe what you want.

 

Browning designed the locking system for slam shooting.

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37 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

Could you expound on that?  That doesn't really answer my question.  Do I need to be clearer on my question?

 

I'm sorry but I'm done.

 

There are resources available to explain Browning's design.

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Designed that way.

My apologies, should have done my research first.  The 97 Trench gun was designed to be slam fired so that the soldiers in WWI could get shots off faster when clearing trenches.  I still don't think it is a good habit to get into.

 

36 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

Could you expound on that?  That doesn't really answer my question.  Do I need to be clearer on my question?

 

 

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In case some of you are not aware, the 97 DOES NOT fire automatically when you slam the action closed.

 

It will fire if you are pressing on the trigger at the same time you 'COMPLETELY' close the action.

 

This is 'slam firing':

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

I don't believe that.  I'm sure it was just an accident of design.  Why in 1897 would they build a shotgun for the average citizen to be shot that way?

I believe in the old saying that you perform the way you practice, if you practice by pulling the trigger first, I think it will only be a matter of time before you pull the trigger when you didn't mean to.


Of the pump shotguns that John Browning invented, the Win. 93, Win. 97, Win. 12, Stevens 520 and 620 were all designed with the ability to slam fire. Given some are quite different internally, that does not seem like a coincidence.

Edited by Shifty Jack, SASS #65353
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15 hours ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

My apologies, should have done my research first.  The 97 Trench gun was designed to be slam fired so that the soldiers in WWI could get shots off faster when clearing trenches.  I still don't think it is a good habit to get into.

 

 

 

The flaw in that logic is how could a firearm designed/built in 1897 have been designed/built with it's use in 1914-1918 in mind?  Unless it was originally designed with a sear disconnect to prevent slam firing in 1897, and then redesigned without the sear disconnect in 1914-1918.

 

12 hours ago, Shifty Jack, SASS #65353 said:


Of the pump shotguns that John Browning invented, the Win. 93, Win. 97, Win. 12, Stevens 520 and 620 were all designed with the ability to slam fire. Given some are quite different internally, that does not seem like a coincidence.

 

I did not know that.  But, could it be that he saw no need to include a sear disconnect on his designs, rather than an intentional exclusion of the disconnect to insure the capability of slam firing?  I don't recall ever hearing anyone talk about slam firing any of the other models you mentioned.  BTW, I own a Model 12 and did not know, until now, that it could be slam fired.

 

I still wonder why someone would intentionally and specifically design a shotgun to be slam fired.  The military aspect makes sense, except the main model in question (Win. '97) was designed and built well before the conflict in which it was put to use.  Also, with the exception of the Model 12, I don't recall hearing of any of the other shotguns mentioned by Shifty being adopted for military use.  I must admit I know little to nothing of the Stevens shotguns mentioned.

 

Oh, and this is my research and you guys are my resources.  I can only hope you are reliable resources.  :D

 

Angus

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19 hours ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

I don't believe that.  I'm sure it was just an accident of design.  Why in 1897 would they build a shotgun for the average citizen to be shot that way?

I believe in the old saying that you perform the way you practice, if you practice by pulling the trigger first, I think it will only be a matter of time before you pull the trigger when you didn't mean to.

The Ithaca 37 was the same way , some of the later versions they removed the stud off the hammer so it didn’t do it anymore, don’t know if it was a cost savings thing or liability. Not sure what the new Ithaca does 

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22 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The 97 was designed to be slam fired... But I'm sure you knew that;)

 

I'd love to step in the way back machine and watch JM and Winchester perfect the 1897 design. 

 

Here's my take on it. They had a working shotgun prototype but if the shooter held down the trigger the shotgun would jam up. The true disconnecting trigger was not all that common, so instead of going that route they compromised. Instead of jamming up and making the shotgun inoperable,  they made a mechanism that would drop the hammer automatically as the shotgun went into battery if the trigger was held. IOW, designed it not to jam. The Model 12 carried that work around as well. 

 

The Ithaca 37 had three generations of trigger. Gen one models slam fired instead of jamming if the trigger was held. Second generation M37s had a trigger that jammed up the action if it was held down while you pumped. I suppose this was considered as being safer than slam firing. Third generation M37s had a true disconnecting trigger mechanism. IMO the original M37 was purposely built to slam fire to meet law enforcement needs. 

 

As a rule, the buying public prefers the disconnecting trigger. The fully automatic pump shotgun or slam fire pump shotgun is not the safest design IMHO. 

 

I grew up with an 870 in my hands, slam fire just seems entirely foreign to me. That being said, the 870 will slam fire if the firing pin breaks, and you don't even have to keep the trigger pulled. I thanked the "Always point your gun in a safe direction" rule that day. 

 

BB

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ive enjoyed the read , im glad they function that way and there are a lot of pheasants in the midwest that wished they didnt in my past 

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On 3/18/2022 at 11:36 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Of the 97's shooters I have ask, there seems to be many that do slam fire, but a respectable amount don't slam fire.

 

And it seems to be that way whether the shooter is fast or not-so-fast.

 

I have 3 'Dry Fire Practice' videos on YouTube.  Check em out if you want.

 

P.S. - I slam fire and find I have a high degree of success when I point LOW on the target as I'm pushing the action closed.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Thanks Widder.  I guess my thinking that a lot of the fast shooters are slam firing is kind of like thinking they are all slip hammering their pistols when they are not.  On SxS as well, I just don't snap the two shots like a lot of folks do, so maybe I spend too much time aiming. 

 

I was talking to AD today, he slam fires and said he aims low like you mentioned.  I guess some people just slam fire because they like to.  Based on several comments above I think I will just forget about it at least for now and just spend my efforts trying to load faster. I am a middle of the pack shooter who never practices, but I did in fact put in a couple of ten minute sessions with snap caps last week, practicing grabbing one with the right hand and 3 with the left.  More time than that makes my wrist hurt from picking up the gun.  I loaded that way for most of the match yesterday for the first time and was pretty happy about how it went (not too fast but I didn't drop any shells!).  Here is my beltcam view (tuck phone in shotgun belt).  Slightly less impressive than Widder's vid above :)

 

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Howdy Abilene,

 

Your SG functioning looks pretty darn good to me.   Keep it up.

 

HELPFUL TIP:  When you load 'over the top',  you might want to consider shooting the KD's from Right to Left.

When you load over the top and shoot Left to Right, your loading hand is CHASING your port.   But when you

engage from Right to Left, your loading hand (over the top) and SG are both moving together.

The opposite is true if you load right handed.....engage SG targets Left to Right.

 

Keep em smoking.

 

p.s. - Please don't share this info with Red Knee..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Howdy Abilene,

 

Your SG functioning looks pretty darn good to me.   Keep it up.

 

HELPFUL TIP:  When you load 'over the top',  you might want to consider shooting the KD's from Right to Left.

When you load over the top and shoot Left to Right, your loading hand is CHASING your port.   But when you

engage from Right to Left, your loading hand (over the top) and SG are both moving together.

The opposite is true if you load right handed.....engage SG targets Left to Right.

 

Keep em smoking.

 

p.s. - Please don't share this info with Red Knee..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

Never thought of that - I will keep it in mind.   One other thing I just figured out from the practice was that I need to turn the gun sideways a little each time for the over the top loads, it really helped.  But that movement isn't built-in yet so I have to work on that.  Even with my previous grab-two with left hand, that seems to help.  I haven't developed too many good or bad habits with the '97 since I have (...let me check my spreadsheet) only about 2000 rounds through my '97's over the years, and a fair amount of that was Wild Bunch.

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2 hours ago, john brown said:

 Looks like a fun ride and the shotgun work sounds steady.

Yeah, the mine cart is fun.  But I got a 'P' because the targets were supposed to be shot at least two times each, which I forgot as I was riding along.  The bad thing is, I've gotten that exact same 'P' there before. :wacko:

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The early model 97 riot guns were made for law enforcement, prison guards, railway agents and bank guards. The reason for slam fire, fast follow up shots. They went to war, WW1, they added the heat shield and bayonet lug. There is a adjusting screw behind the trigger to adjust so that the hammer only drop when the gun is fully locked up. Hold the trigger down, run the action, 6 rounds out real fast. Wow that was fun.

  Rob

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