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Where Do I Start? How to Improve the Most When You First Start in CAS


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7 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Missouri Lefty set the record for fastest Gunfighter (all four guns on the world record target array) in 2018, 15.94 seconds.  It is the first of four records shown in the video.  The other three are blackpowder categories.

 

 

I was actually talking about the world record gunfighter revolver record, not the stage record. It's 1.81. I can't figure out how to post it. 

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50 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Wonder what the record is for speed gunfighter? It's 1.81 is on film for 10 shots on target from holsters...and it's been done faster. That's with those manually operated ruger vaqueros.

With both guns out at the same time and not on four targets. Both are amazing but both are trivial compared to national and world championship matches.  I guess I didn't clarify  that the records I mentioned were with manually operated double action revolvers.

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1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

With both guns out at the same time and not on four targets. Both are amazing but both are trivial compared to national and world championship matches.  I guess I didn't clarify  that the records I mentioned were with manually operated double action revolvers.

Gator, my reply was to Chacon about splits and the lever rifle outrunning a smg. I don't know where you came from or what you were wanting to debate.

But, while we're talking about the records I'll say this. The gunfighter record is total time including the draw with revolvers you have to cock the hammers before you fire. I'm not taking anything from JM, but it's totally different. I can't do either of them. My fastest time with 5 shot da pocket pistol is .84 on 2 targets at Black Gold. So they'd both whoop up on me.

Also, I'd have to look to make sure but I believe JM time is usually from first shot to last. That wouldn't include time to first shot.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

Some are at the beep with gun held at low ready. You could be correct about the 8 shot record. But as I said these demonstration records are just footnotes and fun to do and watch but are nothing compared to the accomplishments  of a shooter who wins dozens of national and world championships in many different types of competition. 

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21 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Learning to go fast...or shall I say learning to post low stages times requires that the shooter pushes themselves. Over time, misses will go down.

 

Also, when at a "Bigger" match, it's easier to notch down a step then it is to notch up a step.

 

Rule of thumb that Lead Dispencer taught me when I started is that so long as your misses don't add up to more than your Raw time, yer doing fine. The misses will go away.

 

You teach "Clean" and you're teaching mediocracy...unless the whole purpose is to shoot clean. But Speed will NOT come if you are focusing on "Clean".

 

Phantom

Amazingly when I started I thought somehow I would get faster without practicing faster. I'm still not fast but after I started pushing myself I did get  faster. I'm also of the camp that believes, at least early on, you can save more time with good transitions than trying to shoot faster. However in practice I try to push my transitions and my speed.

 

Thanks

Randy 

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1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Pretty sure I can speak from experience and shooting fast first and then learning the fundamentals is NOT the only way to become a fast shooter. 

 

Stan

I don't think I said it was the ONLY way...if I did, that wasn't my intent. However, if teaching I'll resort to espousing the method that seems to be the most successful. 

 

Phantom

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7 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Amazingly when I started I thought somehow I would get faster without practicing faster. I'm still not fast but after I started pushing myself I did get  faster. I'm also of the camp that believes, at least early on, you can save more time with good transitions than trying to shoot faster. However in practice I try to push my transitions and my speed.

 

Thanks

Randy 

Okay Mr. World Champion...no one is going to believe that you are not fast.

 

:P

 

Regarding Transitions, even those have to be pushed. All the while remembering that "Smooth is Fast, Quick is Slow" (China Camp).

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2 minutes ago, Assassin said:

When pushing transitions there will be a dropped pistol in one's future.

Those that have and those that will !

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Dang, address one point in one post and there's a lot of noise.  The point was essentially just keep practicing and the speed will come.  Well, it doesn't.  Not real speed.  That takes focused practice.

 

Lots of good stuff in here.  Transitions are, of course, the best low hanging fruit to pluck.  Followed by feeding of the shotgun.

 

When you're not actively engaging targets, keep both hands busy.  Do it smoothly.  Do it with purpose.  Do it with attention.  Do it with intention. 

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5 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Lots of good stuff in here.  Transitions are, of course, the best low hanging fruit to pluck.  Followed by feeding of the shotgun.

 

When you're not actively engaging targets, keep both hands busy.  Do it smoothly.  Do it with purpose.  Do it with attention.  Do it with intention. 

Loving your book! And thanks for making it available for download, I am glad to have a print copy. You autographed it to someone else, but I don't care. Working my way through it.

 

Had a stage at the last match I participated in where I saw an opportunity to make good time by loading the shotgun while transitioning to window 2 from window 3.  Perfectly within the rules and safe as long as I did not close the shotgun until my feet were planted at window 2...

 

Humph... transition while keeping both hands moving did not work for me. Great idea, poor execution. Lack of practice. I've done shotgun reloading while moving in the past, but something was different and I could not walk and grab shells at the same time, or bring the SG to my shoulder. Ended up at window 2 with lost time and still grabbing shells and the SG was not yet at my shoulder. Not a train wreck, but certainly a cascade of derailments.. Still had fun but it would have been so cool to have pulled off that transition with the SG load. I think the level floor threw me off, yes, that's it. The floor was level. Broke my mojo.

 

Really, just posting to say thanks for your book! I'm working through it.

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16 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Loving your book! And thanks for making it available for download, I am glad to have a print copy. You autographed it to someone else, but I don't care. Working my way through it.

 

Had a stage at the last match I participated in where I saw an opportunity to make good time by loading the shotgun while transitioning to window 2 from window 3.  Perfectly within the rules and safe as long as I did not close the shotgun until my feet were planted at window 2...

 

Humph... transition while keeping both hands moving did not work for me. Great idea, poor execution. Lack of practice. I've done shotgun reloading while moving in the past, but something was different and I could not walk and grab shells at the same time, or bring the SG to my shoulder. Ended up at window 2 with lost time and still grabbing shells and the SG was not yet at my shoulder. Not a train wreck, but certainly a cascade of derailments.. Still had fun but it would have been so cool to have pulled off that transition with the SG load. I think the level floor threw me off, yes, that's it. The floor was level. Broke my mojo.

 

Really, just posting to say thanks for your book! I'm working through it.

 

Keep at it.  Practice it dry fire at home. 

 

I'm just really glad you're finding it helpful.  I had so much help putting that book together that I can't even begin to thank everyone.  Offering it up for download seemed to make the most sense.  It was written as a resource to help folks improve.

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2 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Keep at it.  Practice it dry fire at home. 

 

I'm just really glad you're finding it helpful.  I had so much help putting that book together that I can't even begin to thank everyone.  Offering it up for download seemed to make the most sense.  It was written as a resource to help folks improve.

That reminds me, I gotta read that book again.

Thanks Doc.

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Thanks Doc. I have to admit I am reading it for the first time,

 

You state in the book ant fundamentals are the starting point. 

Grip, stance, sight placement and alignment. That is what I  mean by 

shoo clean quickly. Once you have the basics down, then push for speed. 

Sorry if that was misunderstood. The OP was asking about first starting out.

Good advise from all who commented. 

Thank you all.

 

Fox

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9 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

Thanks Doc. I have to admit I am reading it for the first time,

 

You state in the book ant fundamentals are the starting point. 

Grip, stance, sight placement and alignment. That is what I  mean by 

shoo clean quickly. Once you have the basics down, then push for speed. 

Sorry if that was misunderstood. The OP was asking about first starting out.

Good advise from all who commented. 

Thank you all.

 

Fox

Glad you’re enjoying the book. 
 

Note that I’ve learned a LOT since I wrote it. A 2nd edition would have some changes. But not a great deal. 

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My 2 cents..

When I  started  in this game 15 years ago I heard many times the comment'' if ya' shootin clean you ain't shootin' fast enough''.

At the time I didn't really have an opinion.

Over the years with practise I 've become quicker..BUT' now every match I go to my first  aim is to shoot 'clean...for myself the clean mentality & shooting as fast as I can, ''  when able to do so'' without  chucking shots in the dirt ,works for me.

Everyone is different..

Interesting topic..carry on

 

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17 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Missouri Lefty set the record for fastest Gunfighter (all four guns on the world record target array) in 2018, 15.94 seconds.  It is the first of four records shown in the video.  The other three are blackpowder categories.

 

 

Not taking anything away from ML. I have not seen a stand and deliver stage like that in many years. S & D is just running the guns. It's just a lazy way to set up a stage, same with one or two steps laterally. Lack of movement matches will not attract new shooters.

Now, back to the subject matter. 

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14 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't think I said it was the ONLY way...if I did, that wasn't my intent. However, if teaching I'll resort to espousing the method that seems to be the most successful. 

 

Phantom

 

Ok....the way you were condescendingly speaking to OTJ and asking him how many world champions he trained made it sound like that method you espouse is the only way to become a top shooter.

 

To be a top shooter one must shoot fast and not miss (much).... How does one learn to do that?

 

In the most basic form.......

 

1. Learn how to hit what you're aiming at

2. Learn how to manipulate the guns at a high rate of speed

3. Learn how to do them both at the same time

 

or

 

1. Learn how to manipulate the guns at a high rate of speed

2. Learn how to hit what you're aiming at

3. Learn how to do them both at the same time

 

Neither camp is the only way to go......as to training champions....first one must find the rare shooter that is willing to put in the work to become a champion. That is the hard part.

 

Stan

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Just now, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

Ok....the way you were condescendingly speaking to OTJ and asking him how many world champions he trained made it sound like that method you espouse is the only way to become a top shooter.

 

To be a top shooter one must shoot fast and not miss (much).... How does one learn to do that?

 

In the most basic form.......

 

1. Learn how to hit what you're aiming at

2. Learn how to manipulate the guns at a high rate of speed

3. Learn how to do them both at the same time

 

or

 

1. Learn how to manipulate the guns at a high rate of speed

2. Learn how to hit what you're aiming at

3. Learn how to do them both at the same time

 

Neither camp is the only way to go......as to training champions....first one must find the rare shooter that is willing to put in the work to become a champion. That is the hard part.

 

Stan

Oh... condescending...gotcha.

 

Hows about considering that I was simply putting weight to one's experience?

 

Oh no...you have consider only the most nefarious motive.

 

Nice.

 

<_<

 

Stoopid Wire...

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The topic is:  "How to improve the most when you

first start in CAS".

 

There is probably NOT a universal answer.

Some are already familiar with their guns.

Some aren't.

 

Depending on age and physical abilities, some will

already have reasonable speed, some won't.

 

Even my personal experiences have varying results.

10-15 minutes after I started working with my pistols,

I was thumbing BOTH pistols in both hands efficiently.....

real efficiently.  

My dry fires and live fires were faster than some local

seasoned Gunfighters.   BUT..... I was a sloppy shooter

when I tried to shoot at targets because my misses were

many.

Over the next couple years, I practiced speed..... pure speed.

But if I wanted to have a decent match with minimal misses,

I had to throttle back on the pistol speeds.

I eventually, while still practicing speed, found a good 

'game speed' that helped me as much as anything.

 

My SG practice was different with the 97.

I practiced for Technique while pushing myself as fast as

I could.   First of all, I found it difficult to run my 97 in the 

same manner as many others..... especially the 'grab 4' 

shooters.   So, I found my 'grab 2' worked FOR ME.

I could go full speed and have  reasonable success

AT SPEED.   I never settled on 'throttling back'  with the

97, BUT..... I had to make some adjustments on my

'thinking' to become more proficient.

And I had to practice A LOT to gain speed...... and maintain

efficiency.

 

My 97 héros, and I have a handful, are folks I still enjoy watching

and trying to learn more from.

Those folks that new shooters could learn well from are

guys like Sante Fe River Stan, Deuce, Hell's Comin, and the

amazingly consistent and fast Red Knee with his left hand

technique using his 97.

 

When I mention practicing fast, I don't just mean moving

a little quicker or 10 minute practice sessions.

I'm talking about wearing calluses on your thumbs with

pistol practices.

And actually tearing your finger nails off while practicing with

the SG and you get your fingers rubbing across the edges

of various parts of the SG.

 

I think each shooter has a gut feeling as to where they need to

focus on their skills, whether its for accuracy or speed..... or the

combination while NEVER forget the importance of TRANSITIONS.

 

But I still believe the most important variable that will help

shooters is that PRACTICE is a must.  

 

Wherever your goals are aimed..... you're gonna have to

practice..... and A LOT.

 

And if you want to be a mediocre shooter, than practice with

mediocrity.    If you aspire to be more, or one of the best, ya gotta

give it ALL your best efforts.

 

Thats my thoughts.

 

Best Regards.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oh... condescending...gotcha.

 

Hows about considering that I was simply putting weight to one's experience?

 

Oh no...you have consider only the most nefarious motive.

 

Nice.

 

<_<

 

Stoopid Wire...

That is correct Stoopid Wire.....

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Today FM - What Have YOU Left On The Long Finger??

If you want to be competitive in this game you have little choice other than to have your fingers stretched. ALL of the good shooters have undergone finger stretching. You can hold more shells, you can work the lever on your rifle faster and go for your handgun while still shooting the rifle.  It's just a fact, you must have this done or settle for a mediocre spot.

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34 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Today FM - What Have YOU Left On The Long Finger??

If you want to be competitive in this game you have little choice other than to have your fingers stretched. ALL of the good shooters have undergone finger stretching. You can hold more shells, you can work the lever on your rifle faster and go for your handgun while still shooting the rifle.  It's just a fact, you must have this done or settle for a mediocre spot.

And don't forget the Thumb extension procedure...vital for competitive one-handers!

 

 

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On 7/28/2021 at 2:54 PM, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Impatience won't get you anything different.  For most, It will be at least a year or two before they've shot enough to routinely shoot stages under 30 sec.  You can speed that up if you have the time (driving, shooting reloading) and significant money to live-fire practice 2 or 3 times a week.  Dry fire and transition practice also help, without the high associated cost.    

There are video and other resources out there that are helpful, but nothing works better and faster that watching and asking good CAS shooters for help and practicing what they share with you.  They are good shooters for good reason.   There is no substitute for practice and experience.   Also it helps to commit the SHB to memory as much as possible.  Nothing ruins match ranking as fast or effectively as a DQ. 

That seems a bit long.

14 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Dang, address one point in one post and there's a lot of noise.  The point was essentially just keep practicing and the speed will come.  Well, it doesn't.  Not real speed.  That takes focused practice.

 

Lots of good stuff in here.  Transitions are, of course, the best low hanging fruit to pluck.  Followed by feeding of the shotgun.

 

When you're not actively engaging targets, keep both hands busy.  Do it smoothly.  Do it with purpose.  Do it with attention.  Do it with intention. 

This was the case for me, transitions and fundamentals came first, then I gradually got faster.

 

I started out by reading Doc's book, a couple of times.  I also read "With Winning in Mind" a couple of times.  I worked transitions and dry firing for several months before my first match.  Then I spent a half a day at the range shooting with Easy Rider.  A bit more dry firing and transitions and I was ready to go. 

 

My first match was at the North Alabama Regulators in February 2011.  By April 2011 I was shooting in the low 20s.  By the summer in the teens.  Most of that was transitions.  My splits were very slow. 

 

I guess I took the fundamentals first, speed next approach, though life happened and I've been stalled out for a while.

 

The Iron Cowboy on the other hand seems to be taking the speed first fundamentals afterwards approach.  He's running about even with me right now, but with pretty poor shotgun fundamentals, maybe 5-6 seconds for 4 shots.  The days of me beating him are almost over.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That seems a bit long.

Agree.  I started out confused and still am (situation normal).  The OP title looked like somebody seeking advice, so I gave a rundown of things I see as helpful.  But as the thread progressed, the OP and certain others seemed to be giving advice, from a base of not very much experience with CAS.  Had I realized how confused I was, I would have held back on my keyboard. 

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2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

Today FM - What Have YOU Left On The Long Finger??

If you want to be competitive in this game you have little choice other than to have your fingers stretched. ALL of the good shooters have undergone finger stretching. You can hold more shells, you can work the lever on your rifle faster and go for your handgun while still shooting the rifle.  It's just a fact, you must have this done or settle for a mediocre spot.

Now I understand why you can make all those hard guitar reaches and Barre chords so easily.  Mystery solved. 

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2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

Today FM - What Have YOU Left On The Long Finger??

If you want to be competitive in this game you have little choice other than to have your fingers stretched. ALL of the good shooters have undergone finger stretching. You can hold more shells, you can work the lever on your rifle faster and go for your handgun while still shooting the rifle.  It's just a fact, you must have this done or settle for a mediocre spot.

Do you have a link for a place to have it done, or is it a DIY thing.  

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Do you have a link for a place to have it done, or is it a DIY thing.  

Bamboo Finger Traps (12 Pack) Assorted Colors.

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On 7/30/2021 at 10:47 AM, Snakebite said:

Today FM - What Have YOU Left On The Long Finger??

If you want to be competitive in this game you have little choice other than to have your fingers stretched. ALL of the good shooters have undergone finger stretching. You can hold more shells, you can work the lever on your rifle faster and go for your handgun while still shooting the rifle.  It's just a fact, you must have this done or settle for a mediocre spot.

If you have a patented process that works you could make allot of money stretching appendages :) 

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There are many variables to this equation. Guns must be reliable, good gun leather, good ammo, self confidence, ability to hyperfocus, etc.

I've known some really fast shooters that couldn't keep their head together for a whole stage. Known some that forgot to load their guns. Speed events are a poor gauge for overall performance.

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4 pages of advice, criticism, misunderstandings and musings... and it still boils down to "PRACTICE".   Desire + funding + time = improvement.  Quantity of result depends on quantity & quality of those 3 ingredients.  

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