Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Recommended Posts

This happened to me yesterday, and quite frankly I don't know the answer. Stage called for 10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun. I shot the rifle and moved to a window for the pistols. I shot 4 shots out of pistol #1 , holstered, and shot 5 out of pistol #2 and holstered. Moved to shotgun window and shot it. Was told I had a shot left in pistol #1 so I drew pistol #1 again and shot a pistol target. The call was a stage DQ for holstering pistol #1 with a round left in it and moving on to the shotgun, which I accepted, but some spotters claimed that since I holstered pistol #1 with the hammer on a fired round, never left the shooting line, and re-drew pistol #1 and shot the last round it should have been just a 'P' for shooting out of sequence. What call is the correct call?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It would have been just a miss for the unfired pistol round. After firing the 10th pistol round after the shotgun was used ( gun shot out of order ) the call should have been just a procedural as long as the last pistol round hit a pistol target.  By the way if you had redrawned the first pistol and fired the 10th round before using the shotgun there would not have  been any penalty. 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a "P" period.

A supported or Duelist shooter has no prohibition on holstering with a live round remaining in a pistol.

 

If you had not shot round 10 - it would have been a miss and a P

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Creeker,

 

I think that if the shooter had not fired the 10th round it is just a miss. Just as if it had been a non-firing round, no procedural.

 

Chelsea

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

It is a "P" period.

A supported or Duelist shooter has no prohibition on holstering with a live round remaining in a pistol.

 

If you had not shot round 10 - it would have been a miss and a P

Without an ENGAGEMENT for pistol shot 10 - the P is earned.

Declaring a "Malfunction" would negate that - but in the absence of that declaration; at that moment the shotgun is fired there is a "P" and an unfired round penalty. 

Shooter corrected the unfired round - struck a correct type target - so that penalty is then negated.

But a "brain fade" mistake (losing round count and not engaging all shots) is the very definition of a Procedural.

  • Confused 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m thinking that the unfired round would have only been a miss unless specific instructions were given as to what shot was placed on which target. Firing the round and hitting the correct target after the shotgun sequence would prevent the “miss” call, but then the procedural would apply.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

First:

An unfired round is a counted as a miss. 

 

Use the flow chart, you will see that the shooter will NOT get a P for an unfired round since it was counted as a miss.

 

Remember, a Miss cannot cause a P.

 

For review:

https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/RO/Miss Flow Chart.pdf

 

So if the R.O.  told you to shoot the last round, you got bad advice. 

 

If you did it on your own, you would get a P and no miss.

Generally you cannot get a P and miss for the same shot as far as I know.

 

 

 

Edited by Marauder SASS #13056
Clarification
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

I’m thinking that the unfired round would have only been a miss unless specific instructions were given as to what shot was placed on which target. Firing the round and hitting the correct target after the shotgun sequence would prevent the “miss” call, but then the procedural would apply.

Ill let Pale Wolf call this - but barring a declared malfunction...

10 pistol "engagement attempts" are required.

Shooter attempted NINE then stopped.

At that moment - shooter has earned a miss (unfired round) and a P.

 

Shooter could have corrected both by redrawing and engaging p10 BEFORE shotgun.

 

Shooter did not.

Shooting p10 after the shotgun negates the unfired round penalty.

AND that "engagement" negates the INITIAL Procedural.

But then the shooter earns a DIFFERENT Procedural for firing guns out of order.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

First:

An unfired round is a counted as a miss. 

 

Use the flow chart, you will see that the shooter will NOT get a P for an unfired round since it was counted as a miss.

 

Remember, a Miss cannot cause a P.

 

For review:

https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/RO/Miss Flow Chart.pdf

A miss and an unfired round while scored the same are not the same and an unfired round certainly may cause a P.

(Shoot, under the right circumstances; a single unfired round can get us a miss, a P, a safety or stage dq.)

Additionally the flow chart asks if targets were struck in the correct order - correct order includes FIREARM order.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, LASSITER#2080 said:

It would have been just a miss for the unfired pistol round. After firing the 10th pistol round after the shotgun was used ( gun shot out of order ) the call should have been just a procedural as long as the last pistol round hit a pistol target.  By the way if you had redrawned the first pistol and fired the 10th round before using the shotgun there would not have  been any penalty. 

 

 

+1

I would have been a MISS for the unfired round...

But, when the pistol was fired from the wrong position and hit the pistol target, it turned into a P

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

 

+1

I would have been a MISS for the unfired round...

But, when the pistol was fired from the wrong position and hit the pistol target, it turned into a P

 

+2   

- Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under

the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.   SHB Version 25.1 pp. 21-23

 

JM

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Or to take it a bit further.

If I draw my first pistol - shoot 5 and then decide to skip the 2nd pistol and move to the next gun...

You just scoring me with 5 misses? 

Or giving me the P as well for missed engagements?

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Or to take it a bit further.

If I draw my first pistol - shoot 5 and then decide to skip the 2nd pistol and move to the next gun...

You just scoring me with 5 misses? 

Or giving me the P as well for missed engagements?

 

Quote the rule for a P for "missed engagements".

 

In this case, the 25 second penalty should be it, if the RO and spotters hollering at you wasn't enough to clue you in...  It's not also not a Spirit of the Game as there is no "competitive advantage" to doing it.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LASSITER#2080 said:

It would have been just a miss for the unfired pistol round. After firing the 10th pistol round after the shotgun was used ( gun shot out of order ) the call should have been just a procedural as long as the last pistol round hit a pistol target.  By the way if you had redrawned the first pistol and fired the 10th round before using the shotgun there would not have  been any penalty. 

 

This is my understanding of the situation also.

But, I'll wait till PWB gives the final word IN BLUE.   Blue Words Matter!

 

..........Widder

 

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

Quote the rule for a P for "missed engagements".

 

In this case, the 25 second penalty should be it, if the RO and spotters hollering at you wasn't enough to clue you in...  It's not also not a Spirit of the Game as there is no "competitive advantage" to doing it.

 

 

Shooters Handbook pg 21

Procedural infractions include:

Failure to attempt to fire a firearm...

 

OP failed to attempt round 10

(until after shotgun; which per my above post would then negate the failing to attempt P - sadly in his example gained him the P back for guns out of order)

My example failed to attempt rounds 6-10.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My opinion is that when smart, informed, experienced shooters disagree on the correct call, something is seriously awry with the rules.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

What if it was a rifle?  The shooter only fires 9 rounds from the rifle and puts it on the table with the action open but with a live round in the carrier block.   Shoots the shotgun and then he picks up the rifle and engages a rifle target.  Is it a P or SDQ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I may be wrong, but I'm in the "only a miss" for an unfired round left in the revolver as long as it's not under the hammer. 

 

As shot, only a "P".

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

ya'll missed the part where he "moved" to the shotgun position and fired the pistol from there. So a "P" for that if the stage instructions said 'shoot pistol from position x'. I'm with Creeker a P only.

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Shooters Handbook pg 21

Procedural infractions include:

Failure to attempt to fire a firearm...

 

 

 

I always like it when folks quote a rule.  Makes things so much easier!

Of course, as you said, it doesn't apply to just one round.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

ya'll missed the part where he "moved" to the shotgun position and fired the pistol from there. So a "P" for that if the stage instructions said 'shoot pistol from position x'. I'm with Creeker a P only.

 

Ike,

I looked for that but still don't see where he stated the 10th round was fired "from there" (SG position).

 

The OP didn't actually state 'WHERE' the 10th round was fired.   I took for granite that

Mikey may have moved back to the pistol position to hit that pistol target.  Just my assumption.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

Moved to shotgun window and shot it. Was told I had a shot left in pistol #1 so I drew pistol #1 again and shot a pistol target

I took this to mean he didn't move back to the pistol position.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, McCandless said:

 

I always like it when folks quote a rule.  Makes things so much easier!

Of course, as you said, it doesn't apply to just one round.

Me too.

So now I ask of you...

Quote the rule that differs a single round from multiple rounds.

Attempting to fire the gun 1 time, 2 times, 3 times, etc. (unless a malfunction is declared) is not enough attempts - the stage calls for 10 pistol attempts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I took this to mean he didn't move back to the pistol position.

Regardless of the position, he fired the 10th pistol round after firing the shotgun. You can only earn one "P" per stage. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Me too.

So now I ask of you...

Quote the rule that differs a single round from multiple rounds.

Attempting to fire the gun 1 time, 2 times, 3 times, etc. (unless a malfunction is declared) is not enough attempts - the stage calls for 10 pistol attempts.

 

1 hour ago, J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 said:

 

- Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under

the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.   SHB Version 25.1 pp. 21-23

 

What JM Brown posted, whether it's 1, 2, or 3 rounds....

You stated what happens if "Failure to attempt to fire a firearm" at all occurs... 

 

I hate hypothetical situations.    :P   Not arguing by the way, I enjoy WTC discussions.  Always room to learn.

Edited by McCandless
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I took this to mean he didn't move back to the pistol position.

Since he fired the shotgun and then went back to the pistol sequence - it wouldn't make any difference to assigning the P or not.  

UNLESS there were zero gun order requirements from the stage description.

At the beep:

With firearms in any order: 

engage pistol targets with 10 rounds

engage rifle targets with 10 rounds

engage shotgun with 4 rounds

 

Then an argument could be leveled that pistols could be delivered in the manner stated without P penalty.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Im going to shut up now - so when I'm completely wrong on this one - my hole isn't any deeper than I have dug it already.

:blink:

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nickel City Dude said:

What if it was a rifle?  The shooter only fires 9 rounds from the rifle and puts it on the table with the action open but with a live round in the carrier block.   Shoots the shotgun and then he picks up the rifle and engages a rifle target.  Is it a P or SDQ?

Neither, it's a MSV. It's only a SDQ if it's in the chamber. SHB Page 16. It's also a P for not engaging the last target, and, if not fired, it's a M for the unfired round. 

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the Trifecta of oopses. 

 

SHB Page 43 "Engaged - attempting to fire a round at a target"

 

This call would be a P for not engaging the last target. If he had not shot the last round, it would have been a P and a Miss.

 

Edited by Flying W Ramrod
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The spotters were correct.
OP call is a "
P" for firing the last revolver shot "out of order".

Up to that point, there was only a MISS for the unfired round.
 

NO SDQ!

 

There would have been NO procedural penalty for "failure to attempt to fire a firearm" if the OP hadn't fired the 5th round from the first revolver.

That only applies to completely skipping the use of a firearm...NOT to any single "unfired rounds" (MISSES) remaining in a firearm that has been shot (or attempted to be fired in case of a malfunction, squib, or ejected rounds).

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit text
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 9
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Since he fired the shotgun and then went back to the pistol sequence - it wouldn't make any difference to assigning the P or not.  

UNLESS there were zero gun order requirements from the stage description.

Creeker. I was making the point for those that thought it was amiss and no P. He earned a p both ways.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes:
- Each missed target. 
- Each unfired round. 
- Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ
 - Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake. 
- Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition. 
 
Double Jeopardy applies- a miss cannot cause a procedural
To help understand this concept, please reference the Miss Flow Chart in Section 7 of this handbook.

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

TO should have kept quiet. Once you fired the shotgun, there was no point to mentioning the unfired round. That caused you to earn a 10 second penalty instead of a 5 second one. The unfired round should have been called only at the end of the stage for scoring and to alert unloading officer. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

The call was a stage DQ for holstering pistol #1 with a round left in it and moving on to the shotgun

Damn...that means every time we move from the loading table to the stage we earn a SDQ.

 

Well there goes all the fun...

 

:blink:

 

PS: Fire that T.O and everyone that agreed with the call.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.