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Captain Bill Burt

WTC (two of them)

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I've often felt there was some uncertainty about the correct call with respect to the rules I'm about to reference, so the intent of this thread is to clarify my understanding of the rule, and perhaps other's understanding as well. My apologies to PWB for stirring this particular pot. 

 

Shooter A is moving from one stage to the other with his long guns secured muzzle up in his gun cart.  Long guns are empty with open actions.  While moving the shooter's double barrel shotgun closes and he doesn't notice it.  He continues to the next stage with his shotgun closed muzzle up in his cart.  WTC?

 

Shooter B is moving from one stage to the other with his long guns secured muzzle up in his gun cart.  Due to the configuration of his cart the muzzles of his long guns are pointed directly at him while he is moving the cart.  WTC?

 

Here are what I believe are the pertinent rules from the SHB.

 

SHB page 18 "Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."

 

SHB page 23 "Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked (exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered)." SDQ

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I'd say no call on both.

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15 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

I'd say no call on both.

Agreed

 

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24 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

I'd say no call on both.

On the first infraction, just let the shooter know to correct the closing of the shotgun. Second example shooters are not penalized for sweeping themselves with an unloaded firearm. If we did only about 20% of crossdraw shooters would ever make it through a stage. Heck, even 50% of the shooters using 2 strongside holsters probably sweep themselves somewhere in the drawing and  reholstering of their revolvers a few times in a match. 

Edited by doc roy l. pain

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I want to be clear that I'm not advocating a particular call, I'm simply playing devil's advocate.

I hear the no calls.  But don't we have a rule that says the actions must be open and the muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match? 

 

Don't we have a rule that says changing location with a long gun, action closed, is a SDQ?

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Annnd, pretty much every gun cart would be illegal. I also see many with a SxS closed in the cart while moving to keep it from swinging all over the place.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Don't we have a rule that says changing location with a long gun, action closed, is a SDQ?

 

We do, but I understand that to apply only during the stage; from loading table to unloading table.

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CAPT.,

My interpretation of the .... "Changing location with a long gun with the action closed, etc......"

is totally in reference to being ON THE STAGE and not during any movement or carting of firearms

elsewhere on the range.

 

Ya can't earn a SDQ without being committed to the stage, as in LT to ULT.

 

That's my understand from SHB pg 23.

 

..........Widder

 

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Regarding transport and carry away from firing line -

 

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB Rule: Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

 

We have a rule that says "SHALL" and no penalty ascribed for violating the recommendation.    Unless it is so flagrant that "Unsafe Gun Handling" is invoked for which the penalty is a SDQ.  "Unsafe gun handling (fanning, etc.)" from Pocket RO card.

 

IMHO when away from the firing line, Unsafe Gun Handling includes a person intentionally or carelessly sweeping others, not just accidentally covering someone, especially if the guns are in a cart where they have been checked for empty and safe at an unloading table (or a vehicle if at the start of a match).

 

Now, politely offering to assist a shooter to correct his handling or to help carry firearms (if it appears he is struggling) should always be accepted in the Spirit of the Game. and the Cowboy Way

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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4 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

We do, but I understand that to apply only during the stage; from loading table to unloading table.

 

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:
1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB page 18 "Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."

I would assume that  refers to transported in hand once the firearms have been cleared at the unloading table. Ex. from unloading table to cart or next gun rack.

 

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Changing location vs transporting is a key. I believe it also states shooter can not sweep one’s held 

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Just to be clear, I'm not talking about sweeping yourself, I'm referring to the statement: 

 

"chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."

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No call on both accounts as far as sass rules are concerned. Local range rules maybe different. I asked a WtC a while back about someone dropping an unloaded pistol when not on the line. It was determined No Call because he wasnt on the line and was back at the cart area. 

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CBB

I understand about the rules in place, but as we all know rules are put in place as guidelines and some prudence and common sense should be used on all our parts to enforce these rules. The main thing is to create a safe environment for us all to have fun in, not to simply deal out penalties. 

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB page 23 "Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked (exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered)." SDQ

 

Howdy Cap'n,

Reading the section on pg 23 on SDQ's the heading says, "A Stage Disqualification (SDQ or “Stage DQ”) is generally a safety violation of a more serious nature, and means the competitor’s time and performance on the course of fire is disqualified as a result of the violating action by the shooter.

 

A.  The only penalty for sweeping yourself that I can find is for a gunfighter, who "pumping" has one gun behind the other hand.

 

B.  If you were to apply this to a closed gun on a cart, would you apply that to the stage already shot or the stage not yet shot?  Since it is supposed to apply to a safety violation of a more serious nature, I would only apply SDQ of this type to misadventures "on the line".

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The term "transported" is not defined in the SHB but I have understood it as referring to carrying and moving outside of the "firing line", including long guns in a cart.  Note that there are exceptions not written in the SHB for long guns in cases, scabbards and enclosed carts.

 

To my understanding there is no penalty for violating this particular rule.

 

There is a long established interpretation that there is no penalty for sweeping yourself so "no call" if you are looking into the bores of your long guns in your cart.  I also agree with Hollifer A. Dollar's interpretation that "sweeping" applies to a firearm in a Shooter's hands, or at least within the Shooter's control.

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Truth is that if there was a SDQ for EITHER one of the original poster's scenario's, by the end of stage two.....there wouldn't be enough shooters left to continue the match.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

actions must be open and the muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match? 

Actually, in reading this section several times, I think you have a valid point.  But no specific penalty is prescribed.  So I would think it calls for no penalty other than cautioning the shooter about the SG closure.  

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I said this in the other thread about long guns pointed down on the cart. All of us with gun carts that secure the long guns vertically sweep ourselves and potentially others when we bring the cart back to role it to the next stage. Never has been as an issue and never should be a penalty. No call.

 

SXS closes, or with some rifle action jobs and springs lever closes, not fully, but not fully open either transporting. Or as happens to me when I grab the SXS barrel to set the shotgun in my gun cart. No call. Open it when you see it or when someone points it out. 

 

In theory you brought your guns empty to the range, you left the ULT with unloaded guns. Dropping any gun behind the line has never been a penalty as far as I know.

Ike

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1 hour ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

No call on both accounts as far as sass rules are concerned. Local range rules maybe different. I asked a WtC a while back about someone dropping an unloaded pistol when not on the line. It was determined No Call because he wasnt on the line and was back at the cart area. 

This happened to me once. Finished the stage and was running to the bathroom. One of my guns popped out of the holster and hit the ground. Nobody saw it. I went back to the TO and told him to SDQ me. We got into a bit of an argument over it, as he refused to since it was after the stage and I still felt it was deserved in some manner. We settled on the small scratch on the barrel as punishment enough haha.

2 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said:

On the first infraction, just let the shooter know to correct the closing of the shotgun. Second example shooters are not penalized for sweeping themselves with an unloaded firearm. If we did only about 20% of crossdraw shooters would ever make it through a stage. Heck, even 50% of the shooters using 2 strongside holsters probably sweep themselves somewhere in the drawing and  reholstering of their revolvers a few times in a match. 

I would think it would be closer to 100%. Can't remember the last time I saw someone draw a pistol and not at least sweep their foot/side of leg.

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Regarding cart carry, I personally  think the safest, all things considered, would be muzzle down.  Muzzle lowers safely in leaving the ULT and stays that way until the next LT.  With reasonable care taken (it is always the shooter's responsibility not to sweep people), all sweeping can be avoided.  If SG chambers require cleaning, it is easier to do safely and inspect with muzzle down. 

 

Contrast that to people pushing carts with no option except having two to four guns pointed directly at their head, and at times, directly at others.   No extra care can avoid that sweeping hazard, due to cart design. 

 

Both scenarios have equal protection from actions being open, so it doesn't affect the differences above. 

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Regarding cart carry, I personally  think the safest, all things considered, would be muzzle down.  Muzzle lowers safely in leaving the ULT and stays that way until the next LT.  With reasonable care taken (it is always the shooter's responsibility not to sweep people), all sweeping can be avoided.  If SG chambers require cleaning, it is easier to do safely and inspect with muzzle down. 

 

Contrast that to people pushing carts with no option except having two to four guns pointed directly at their head, and at times, directly at others.   No extra care can avoid that sweeping hazard, due to cart design. 

 

Both scenarios have equal protection from actions being open, so it doesn't affect the differences above. 

 

That's only true in the two wheel carts. Lots of folks, myself included, are using the rugged gear cart or some other form of modified jogging stroller.  No chance of sweeping anyone in the configuration.

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Quote

Location – a physical point on a stage (e.g., “behind the door….”) 

SHB p.45

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15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.45

Thank you!  So the applicable rule would be

 

SHB page 18 "Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."

 

That rule has no associated penalty I believe.

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24 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Thank you!  So the applicable rule would be

 

SHB page 18 "Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."

 

That rule has no associated penalty I believe.

 

It really has no attached penalty unless any "discussion" regarding noncompliance on a specific range escalates to MDQ levels.

Muzzle up "tip back" carts have been in use for YEARS with no penalty assessed for "self-sweeping" (a no call both on & off the stage).

Generally, no one other than the shooter is ever covered by a muzzle with that style of transport...including from cart to LT and from ULT back to cart.

The primary safety consideration is diligence at all times to ensure that the long guns are CLEARED of all ammunition.

(which is absolutely mandatory if/when the uncodified "MD Exception" re "actions open...unless enclosed in a case or scabbard" is in place)

That includes from the parking lot to the range and at the ULT on each stage.

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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4 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Oh Good Grief

 

I just had some Good Pizza.

 

;)

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

I want to lay my guns open and sideways on my cart one point right and one point left. Would this be ok?

As long as your cart is still at home.:)

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