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Hells Comin

Sass default

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Would someone please explain the sass default position. 

For Some reason I thought there had been a change to the meaning that's currently in the shooters handbook. 

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If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers
holstered, hands at the sides, and not touching any firearm. (SASS default).

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 If  no  starting  position  is  given,  the  shooter  shall  stand  upright  with  revolvers holstered,  hands  at  the  sides,  and  not  touching  any  firearm.   (SASS  default). 

 

SHB pg 14

 

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See also http://www.oowss.com/TG Mtg Notes WR 2017 - UPDATED 2018.pdf

 

Quote

12) Reminder: SASS default still applies even if not explicitly stated in the stage scenario.   E. g.: If the stage scenario calls for hands on hat, hands holding rope, hands touching both sides of window frame, etc., then the rest of your body must be at SASS default. You do not have to be looking straight down range. You can look down at your firearm.

 

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Hey Branchwater,

 

was the wording of 'upright' confusing some folks?

 

I had heard that some were interpreting 'upright' to mean standing 'straight up and looking downrange',

and some were saying it meant that the shooters head could not be looking down, as in looking at their

first firearm to grab.

 

Just a question.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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I was typing my post at the same time you were adding your 2nd post.   Thanks for the info.

 

I remember a few years back when there were a few folks who were adamant about 'looking downrange'

and were telling a shooter they could not be looking down at their gun(s).

 

..........Widder

 

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I know what you mean, Widder.

 

We also still have folks who are adamant that cowboy Port arms means that the gun but must be touching leather. Does it make that right either.

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SASS DeFault.  Yep.  DeFault.  It means if you really screw up the stage you can alibi "SASS was DeFault".  I really wasn't MyFault so I shouldn't get no Penalty.  Yes sir.  It's their DeFault, not mine.  Simple ain't it.  :o

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2 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

Would someone please explain the sass default position. 

For Some reason I thought there had been a change to the meaning that's currently in the shooters handbook. 

Yeah, I'm a bit lost myself, and I try to keep on top of things. Last match I wrote I got my Back Side jumped on after using the term Default. Was told that it is no longer to be used. Duh, can't help but wonder if this was another wave of the hand mandate. Anyhow, to stop the whining I just changed it to hands at side. Geeze!

 

Snakebite 

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7 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Yeah, I'm a bit lost myself, and I try to keep on top of things. Last match I wrote I got my Back Side jumped on after using the term Default. Was told that it is no longer to be used. Duh, can't help but wonder if this was another wave of the hand mandate. Anyhow, to stop the whining I just changed it to hands at side. Geeze!

 

Snakebite 

 

In a sad way, that does have humor to it.

I remember a fews years back, I shot a stage GF style and did a Lead Change which made me shoot my

last 2 shots out of the same pistol.

A Black Pin on the posse wanted to give me a 'P' because I didn't ALTERNATE my pistols for each shot

"like Gunfighters are suppose to do".

 

It happens.   They walk among us!

 

..........Widder

 

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According to two TG's from our area of Arizona, if NO starting position is stated in the course of fire, the shooter may assume any position, as long as they are not touching a firearm or ammunition.  IF the course of fire says starting position is "SASS Default" then the standing upright, hands loose at side is the proper starting position.  Pale Wolf, please respond, and straighten this mess out.

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ATTENTION!

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Your two TGs are mistaken.

 

SASS default is a stage convention.

 

SHB pg 14

 

Quote

SECTION 4 – RANGE OPERATIONS & SAFETY RULES “Conventions”  refer  to  standard  range  behaviors  and  rules  that  every  shooter  is  expected  to know  and  follow  at  all  times.    ALL  SASS  Safety  conventions  are  not  negotiable  and  shall never  be  overruled  by  match  design  or  shooting  course  descriptions.    Stage  Conventions  are standard  default  rules  unless  otherwise  directed  by  stage  design/description  (e.g.,  knockdown targets  must go  down  to  count).

 

STAGE  CONVENTIONS

The  following  stage  conventions  (stage  defaults)  should  be  followed  in  all  SASS  matches, unless  otherwise  directed  in  the  stage  descriptions. 

 

If  no  starting  position  is  given,  the  shooter  shall  stand  upright  with  revolvers holstered,  hands  at  the  sides,  and  not  touching  any  firearm.   (SASS  default). 

 

There is one caveat to that assumption, however. The match or range may have a range / local rule which overrides the SASS convention to say what your TG's are espousing. That should be brought up in the safety meeting, however.

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4 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

Would someone please explain the sass default position. 

For Some reason I thought there had been a change to the meaning that's currently in the shooters handbook. 

Others have given reference to what is printed in the shooters Handbook. It has not been amended or changed.

Upright does not mean standing at attention like you were going through an inspection or kneeling on the ground. It does mean that you can't be bent over your long guns with hands hovering in anticipation of the timer going off.

You will find detailed references and photographs in the RO-III handbook which has been misplaced...... If you find it let me know.

 

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3 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

According to two TG's from our area of Arizona, if NO starting position is stated in the course of fire, the shooter may assume any position, as long as they are not touching a firearm or ammunition.  IF the course of fire says starting position is "SASS Default" then the standing upright, hands loose at side is the proper starting position.  Pale Wolf, please respond, and straighten this mess out.

If no starting position is given, then it is SASS default...UNLESS the Match Director overrides that. The MD can override stage conventions, such as the starting position, but cannot override safety conventions.

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4 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

According to two TG's from our area of Arizona, if NO starting position is stated in the course of fire, the shooter may assume any position, as long as they are not touching a firearm or ammunition.  IF the course of fire says starting position is "SASS Default" then the standing upright, hands loose at side is the proper starting position.  Pale Wolf, please respond, and straighten this mess out.

Well many points view and interpretation of said rules have been going around,the match director can also say that there is not a recognized default and basically due to the various opinions on this.Sass default has as many variations as they do match directors,so as one really adept TG from California suggested why not write better stages as to starting positions.This would be one way to alleviate differences of opinion on what sass default should be.

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Why not just change sass default to not touching your guns. Problem solved and This way no one has a advantage or disadvantage.

Why was this silly rule ever adopted -keep it simple stupid. 

Late night rant:ph34r:

 

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It was adopted due to some of the silly, extremely contorted positions some cowboys were starting from.  Removing it would encourage them to begin again.   Think runner's blocks!  

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22 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

Why not just change sass default to not touching your guns. Problem solved and This way no one has a advantage or disadvantage.

Why was this silly rule ever adopted -keep it simple stupid. 

Late night rant:ph34r:

 

Exactly why when I was in charge at Eldorado - the "Eldorado default" was any hand or body position not touching guns or ammo. 

After all - if everyone has access to the same options; then everyone can choose the option that best suits them.

 

But rarely did that "default" come into play; as well written stage instructions do exactly that... 

Instruct your shooters as to the expectation of the stage.

 

Default positions and conventions come into existence because of poor and inconsistent stage writing.

Or someone's hurt feelings because of someone else's perceived advantage.

 

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17 minutes ago, Griff said:

It was adopted due to some of the silly, extremely contorted positions some cowboys were starting from.  Removing it would encourage them to begin again.   Think runner's blocks!  

Silly contorted positions.

Opinion.

 

I tend to think preparing for a (pretend) gunfight or any competitive endeavor in the SULAI position (standing upright like an idiot) is silly.

 

The default...

It got adopted because SOMEONE got beat by someone trying harder.

It was adopted because SOMEONE didn't like the "way" it looked.

Like bashing Wrangler jeans or a myriad of other "rules" and decisions - it got adopted because SOMEONE with a loud enough voice or bully enough pulpit decided they didn't like the way someone else was playing the game.

 

Creating or implementing arbitrary rules that are poorly constructed and randomly enforced are of no benefit to anyone...

Excepting the SOMEONE who was somehow offended by seeing a competitor actually preparing to compete.

 

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Creeker, maybe so.  But, would a cowboy defendin' the homestead start off by imitatin' a hurdler in "blocks"?

 

Yep, opinion it may be... both ways.  Both are valid however.  I think!  ;)

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11 minutes ago, Griff said:

Creeker, maybe so.  But, would a cowboy defendin' the homestead start off by imitatin' a hurdler in "blocks"?

 

Yep, opinion it may be... both ways.  Both are valid however.  I think!  ;)

Your right his guns would be in hand.:D

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22 minutes ago, Griff said:

Creeker, maybe so.  But, would a cowboy defendin' the homestead start off by imitatin' a hurdler in "blocks"?

 

Yep, opinion it may be... both ways.  Both are valid however.  I think!  ;)

If his first move defending the homestead is to take off running...

Then yes, I believe he would.

 

But I doubt anyone defending the homestead saw trouble on the horizon and thought, "Hey, my best course of action is to stand bolt upright, hands at my sides."

 

I have no issue with a stage incorporating an "unprepared" starting position; I understand that not every (pretend) gunfight announced itself.  And that can/ should be accomplished by the use of props, facades, or preshooting activities.

 

Where I have issue is...

Inconsistent application of SASS default - in the absence of any starting position?

In the presence of any starting position that doesn't define body posture?

Inconsistent/ applications of "standing upright" "hands at sides" (I use drop holsters, so my pistols are exactly at my hand drop height); I have been instructed to move my hands, because hands at sides placed my hands too close to my pistols.

 

 I have issue with SASS default being used to prop up weak/ incomplete stage writing (uhm, I can't think of a starting position/ prop or activity, so use sass default)

And even worse, SASS default being imposed upon stage writing intended to offer shooters options - because without knowing the stage writers intent; some one decides to interject SASS default.

 

Simple is always better.

SASS default adds inconsistent definitions without benefits.

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we use,  SAGAP a lot,,  stand as gamey as possible...  and then add if anything can be held or touched... pretty simple

 

 

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7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

It got adopted because SOMEONE got beat by someone trying harder.

Ding...Ding..Ding...Winner!

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9 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

Why not just change sass default to not touching your guns. Problem solved and This way no one has a advantage or disadvantage.

Why was this silly rule ever adopted -keep it simple stupid. 

Late night rant:ph34r:

 

 

I’ve been saying this since the conversation started years ago. You want equity? This is the perfect solution. Everyone stand how best suits their game. Couldn’t possibly be more equitable. It’s an ultra simple solution to a problem that should never have been created.

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When I write stages for our matches I include all type of starting positions like rifle in both hands, Texas surrender, both hands fully on ledge and such.  I hate the SASS default position and have taken to using the line "Start standing any way you would like, hands not touching guns or ammunition."  That way everyone has the same starting options and no one cheats their chosen position.  Start stand on your head if you like.  So far no one has complained when I use that particular position. 

Grey Beard

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Local Stage Convention #1, copied from the shoot book for Fall Round-Up, the Illowa Irregulars' annual match:

"1.  All stages start with shooter’s choice of body posture, unless specified."

I haven't received even one complaint in the years since SASS Default came into being.

 

CS

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I've shot at a lot of places, with a lot of different folks, seen a LOT of really competitive cowboys givin' it their all!  And the only complaints I've ever heard about the default start position is when some Yahoo lacks any good sense whatsoever, and makes demands that go beyond the SASS rule.  The proper response when faced with that situation is to simply ignore the ignorant and tell 'em "...when you can show me where it sez "__insert stupid interpretation here___" in the rule book, then you can DQ me.  Now start the timer!"  "Upright" ain't "at attention", and all it takes is for a person to say, "this IS UPRIGHT FOR ME!"  Yeah, yell at 'em, embarrass the bejesus outta 'em.  They deserve it.

 

This is really a molehill, not a mountain.  Me, I like "parade rest", but settle for "fall-out" 'cause I can't get my hands behind my back anymore!  :blush:  Even match directors need their horns trimmed ever now & then.

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Some great responses to this topic.  I have seen SASS default "abused" just as many times as "port arms" is abused.  Wish stage writers would not use either of these starting positions because they are a pain in the butt for Timer Operators.  A lot of time is wasted waiting for the TO and shooter to "agree" if the shooter is in the proper starting position when either of these starting positions is used. 

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When I've been asked to describe the default position,  I've used this:  If you & I were standing talking and having a friendly conversation, how would you stand?  THAT is the default position.   See that little dot behind the word "position"?  It means that's all there is to it.  

 

Off my soapbox, carry on ladies & gentlemen.

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I always like to have the starting position match the stage definition.

If you are expecting a fight, stand accordingly.

If you are jawing with yer pards, stand accordingly.

If you are reading a paper, getting a shave, cooking your grub, sweet-talking your gal, position accordingly.

 

So you write the start position to match.

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I think of the opening scene in Gunsmoke where Matt is standing upright with his feet spread as an example of SASS default.  

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