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Hoss

WTC double cocking GF

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I just can’t wait to call someone a “Double Cocking Gunfighter”. 

 

Shot on a posse last year and shooter was shooting Outlaw Gunfighter.  Dang near impossible to count for, especially on stages where shooter can choose target order or round count stages.  

 

Totes

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21 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oh please, no other type of shooting allows for two revolvers being shot at the same time. 

 

<_<

And that means we shouldn't get benefit of the doubt?  If you want to shoot two guns do it don't piss and moan about those that do and don't try to hold those back that do 

 

  Because we have two guns out we don't deserve the same rules?  And b.o.d?

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For the record, after the first stage, the shooter was much more careful and did not have anymore simultanious discharges. (That sounds worse than double-cocking :o )

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3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

For the record, after the first stage, the shooter was much more careful and did not have anymore simultanious discharges. (That sounds worse than double-cocking :o )

Mr. Hoss has it correct. It's not double cocking that is against the rules it's simultaneous discharging that is against the rules. If I can't discern two different discharges, then I don't care if you are Duce Stevens or Tex ( no disrespect intended) at Winter Range or End of Trail, I will call the penalty every time because they broke the rules. What's so hard to understand about that. I maybe overruled but that is life.

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35 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

And that means we shouldn't get benefit of the doubt?  If you want to shoot two guns do it don't piss and moan about those that do and don't try to hold those back that do 

 

  Because we have two guns out we don't deserve the same rules?  And b.o.d?

I have no idea what you are trying to argue here...

 

Laughing a little about the pissing and moaning comment...whatever...

 

You want to change the rules, go for it!  Quit pissing and moaning about them and do something about it. Or you can waste your time here on the Wire complaining about all us pissers and moaners.

 

Oy...

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8 minutes ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

Mr. Hoss has it correct. It's not double cocking that is against the rules it's simultaneous discharging that is against the rules. If I can't discern two different discharges, then I don't care if you are Duce Stevens or Tex ( no disrespect intended) at Winter Range or End of Trail, I will call the penalty every time because they broke the rules. What's so hard to understand about that. I maybe overruled but that is life.

 

If you called a penalty on Deuce because you can't discern two different discharges, you probably don't need to be a 

spotter........Deuce shot Traditional style at WR.   ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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I was just using his name as an example. It's hard to distinguish separate shots on him shooting Traditional.

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2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

The T.O. can certainly give his/her input to the spotters about how many shots he/she thought were fired. The Spotters do NOT have to accept that input.  If a 2 Spotters said "5 misses", then the shooter gets 5 misses. He can certainly appeal it, but won't get anywhere.

 

     Are the spotters calling what they actually seen as misses? Or are they thinking "I didn't hear a shot so it must have been a miss"? 

    If it is the latter, they aren't doing their job correctly. Think about it this way. How can the correct call be made? If they say "5 misses" instead of "I only heard 5 shots from the pistols", the CORRECT call of a P can't possibly be made because they were able to count misses/hits.

1st in the event they seen the target move every time but couldn't hear the splits between shots, they're severely over penalizing the shooter by awarding them a 25 second penalty instead of the correct 10 second P and vice versa if they only heard 9 shots. It's just the wrong penalty flat out.

2nd If they didn't see/hear evidence of a miss, they don't need to be calling a miss. Not hearing the bullet smack steel does not mean there was a miss. Not hearing the guns go off seperately does not mean there was a miss either. It means tell the TO the shots weren't discernible. The TO is the one that calls a P.

Spotters have the ultimate authority on misses and that job is one of, if not the most important jobs and should be taken as serious as that of match director. We shouldn't belittle the job of spotter by calling misses we don't know was a miss. If someone is not confident in their ability to spot there are other jobs.

That being said, If I have 3 spotters tell me they could not discern 10 pistol shots I have to REALLY be sure that I was able to hear 10 different shots. If I'm not sure I could, then I award the correct P call. If I AM sure I heard 10 shots, I explain to the spotters that it may have been close but I could hear the 10 and no P. 

    

Quote

 

  The rules are pretty clear. A GF can either follow them or not.

 

Snakebite 

I agree and would like to see the correct P called if they didn't follow the rules. By the way, it aint only double cockers that get going too fast to tell 10 shots. I've seen from the peanut gallery alternating cockers that made me glad I wasn't spotting or TO'ing. Some of those gunfighters are speed demons either way.

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7 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

     Are the spotters calling what they actually seen as misses? Or are they thinking "I didn't hear a shot so it must have been a miss"? 

    If it is the latter, they aren't doing their job correctly. Think about it this way. How can the correct call be made? If they say "5 misses" instead of "I only heard 5 shots from the pistols", the CORRECT call of a P can't possibly be made because they were able to count misses/hits.

1st in the event they seen the target move every time but couldn't hear the splits between shots, they're severely over penalizing the shooter by awarding them a 25 second penalty instead of the correct 10 second P and vice versa if they only heard 9 shots. It's just the wrong penalty flat out.

2nd If they didn't see/hear evidence of a miss, they don't need to be calling a miss. Not hearing the bullet smack steel does not mean there was a miss. Not hearing the guns go off seperately does not mean there was a miss either. It means tell the TO the shots weren't discernible. The TO is the one that calls a P.

Spotters have the ultimate authority on misses and that job is one of, if not the most important jobs and should be taken as serious as that of match director. We shouldn't belittle the job of spotter by calling misses we don't know was a miss. If someone is not confident in their ability to spot there are other jobs.

That being said, If I have 3 spotters tell me they could not discern 10 pistol shots I have to REALLY be sure that I was able to hear 10 different shots. If I'm not sure I could, then I award the correct P call. If I AM sure I heard 10 shots, I explain to the spotters that it may have been close but I could hear the 10 and no P. 

    

I agree and would like to see the correct P called if they didn't follow the rules. By the way, it aint only double cockers that get going too fast to tell 10 shots. I've seen from the peanut gallery alternating cockers that made me glad I wasn't spotting or TO'ing. Some of those gunfighters are speed demons either way.

TW, I absolutely agree with you on ALL counts. I particularly point out you totally correct statement: "Spotters have the ultimate authority on misses...".  I have never, am not and will not suggest that ANYONE use their power of authority in any un-sportsman like manner to control a shooter that continues to abuse the rules. The rules have ample authority within them to issue a deserved penalty. In virtually every case like this it is the lack of the shooter to follow the rules, or the lack of the Timer Operator to hold the shooter to the standard the rules dictate that causes the problem. The rules state that the two shots must be discernable for the sake of scoring. The scoring that is referred to is the job of counting misses and it belongs ONLY to the Spotters. Their judgement has more control over the outcome of the event than any other person except maybe the shooter. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a Spotter must "See the Miss". A spotter should use everything at his/her disposal to determine the call. If the shooter shoulders the rifle and begins what is to be a 10 shot string, but only 5 shots are heard by the spotters, then they are not only within their rights to issue at least 5 misses, but are obligated to do so. THAT applies to the handguns as well. This entire issue is the fault of the shooter that refuses to adhere to the standard. IMO... that shooter needs to either learn to do it right, change categories or move on down the road. 

 

Snakebite. 

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On 3/3/2019 at 8:20 PM, Hoss said:

Gunfighter shoots 10 targets. Myself, (counting) others only heard 5. A member of the peanut gallery even hollered you only shot 5. TO (who was rightly watching the gun said no, he shot 10) shooter went on and finished stage.  

I know I only heard 5 shots. Others obviously also only heard 5. I also know that there were no pistol misses. Rule says counters have to be able to discern shots. 

WTC? For the record, official call was “clean” 

 

The above quote is from the OP.   He noted that he (and others, PNut gallery included) only heard 5 shots.

BUT, please note that he also stated..... "there were no pistol misses".

 

I think the Spotters did their job correctly..... they reported no misses AND also informed the TO they only heard 5 shots.

TO replied with his/her confirmation of 10 shots.   Now, we don't know if the TO 'heard' those shots or not, but the TO

also performed his/her TO duties the best way he/she felt was appropriate for that particular instance.

 

Spotters get a pat on the back.

TO gets a pat on the back.

 

Shooter obviously learned a little something and corrected his/her shooting style for the remainder of the game.

 

P.S. - Y'all have a good day.   Today is my 68th.   I get to start out with a blood test down at the VA clinic.

WHOOPEEEEEEE.

 

..........Widder

 

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P.S. - Y'all have a good day.   Today is my 68th.   I get to start out with a blood test down at the VA clinic.

WHOOPEEEEEEE.

 

..........Widder

Happy Birthday Pard !!! See ya at 11am for lunch.

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Oh great! Another three pages of............

 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY WIDDER!

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33 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

TW, I absolutely agree with you on ALL counts. 

 

Snakebite. 

Cut for brevity.

     Snakebite, when I read your post it seemed as if you were saying the same thing as Marauder. If you cant give them a P consider giving them misses. I apologize if that is not the case.

     You and I have different methods of spotting and thats ok. I cant rely solely on sound because I don't hear very well and I have earplugs in and there are noises all around me. I hate it when spotters listen for the ding only. There are dead parts of the target that are quiet when struck.

 

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As a unrepentant double cocking gunfighter, I have read this thread with great interest.  I make an effort not to  simultaneously discharge my pistols, but it happens occasionally.  To me the worst penalty I receive are evil looks and head-shaking from my alternating cocking gunfighter friends in the posse.  Not to mention the tongue lashing I receive later at the after match "rehydration" session (they already consider me to be a deviant because of my double cocking).

 

A number of our posse members our outlaw gunfighters.  At least one or two stages during a match, they will look at the person with the score book and clearly announce, "give me my P" and then shoot the stage will double discharges and very entertaining cross-overs.  I love those guys! 

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Yes, you are correct. I too have poor hearing. I always do my best to look for the miss. That is indeed the best method for me to determine if the bullet actually missed the target. I don't want this to turn into a debate on right/wrong etc. I can say for a fact however, that many of the rules were put into place due to shooters (one in particular) that delighted in taking everything to the line, and pushing the envelope on virtually every rule. The rule makers would then put yet another rule into place to counter that. Repeat, repeat. This game is suppose to be a Fun game. When there is a shooter that continually causes controversy and disrupts the enjoyment of the rest of the group, then that shooter needs to make some changes... either voluntarily or by other means. The powers on the posse are indeed distributed... only the T.O. can make the "P" call, and I agree with that. Only the Spotters can make the "Miss" call. If the T.O. does not agree, it is within his/her rights to dismiss the Spotters and replace them, but the call does not change. It might be appealed, but in most cases the MD was not present and would need to rely upon the input of those that were on scene. I have watched the truly good GFs, like Cheyenne Culpepper. His shots are about as close together as can be, yet each of them are independently discernible. Peace.

 

Snakebite

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Always an interesting topic. This is an example where benefit goes to the shooter has swung too far. I say this because I've personally witnessed, experienced and had to make calls and clarifications in cases where the shooter is living or dying on whether he/she gets the benefit of the doubt. If my game were to hang on that I would be looking to make some major changes. For me personally the constant pushing of the envelope and even being indignant to the rules does not make one heroic, it makes them annoying. We ask a whole lot of our TO/Ro's and spotters. Some are calling for immediate dismissal if a spotter can't keep up with a gunfighter doing so. Well sooner or later you are gonna turn around and there will be no one there to relieve you from spotting duties or with the timer. I'm already seeing it at WR and EOT, folks don't want to risk a possible combative shooter or be viewed as responsible for making a call. No matter how high the level of competition gets or how serious one takes it in the end we are a non professional game for a reason. Just like in any race don't be surprised if you scrape some paint while pushing the limits. 

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13 hours ago, Griff said:

I hate to put it this way... but it's not a valid "P" until the TO calls it as such.

Wrong... As the TO, you can only NOT over-rule the spotters as far as misses are concerned.  Spotters should be listened to when considering other penalties, (as TO I can't see everything and be everywhere), but the TO is the one to make every other call.  Input from spotters is invaluable, but it is not sacrosanct as it is in regards to misses. 

 

" Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters."   Page 24 of Shooters Handbook

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Another factor is where you shoot - what are the conditions?

 

I now shoot where we have good berms all around.  And a lot of dirt that will show where the round hit.  That is great to show where misses are, but you still need to be sure it was not an edge hit or merely splatter at the bottom of the target. 

This is essentially an ideal situation.  Many folks naturally think that this is not only the norm but the only situation.

 

But I've also shot out in the plains and mountain areas.  There is grass all around and there maybe no close backstop.  So you have to listen and watch the target for hits.  If it is a miss, there is no dirt flying to help you out.  That very slight breeze is moving the grass and weeds all the time.

 

So to be fair,  the benefit of doubt is different in such a range. 

If you think you need to see where the bullet missed to call a miss, you would never call a miss.  Would that be fair to the shooters?

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in the situation, the TO was rightly watching the guns, so he saw the ten rounds fired. I think the call likely should have been a P.  but the TO made it a no call. the shooter did take the warning however, and did not do it again.

 

on an aside, the shooter was grumbling about it at his cart after the stage. Thought he was done wrong. He said the timer would show 10 shots, and thats what counted and should have been checked. I told him that whatever the shot counter showed would really have no bearing.  But I would have liked to seen it, I'm willing to bet my hat that it did not record 24 shots. 

 

 

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I would agree Deuce...

 

Quote

 

I guess a better question is:

Do gunfighters have to follow the rules?

 

 

On most occasions this issue is not a shooter disregarding the rules any more than it is a non-gunfighter listening for the "P" rather than looking for a miss. Most GF's will take the call, or give it to themselves.

 

How many here complaining shoot GF? Those that do shoot GF, know all too well of what is coming if they dbl discharge or come close. There is no benefit in trying to bend the rules, when the result is a higher probability that spotters will call a miss because they can't keep up. A 5 sec. miss is worse than shooting .1 sec slower. We don't select GF so we can confuse spotters and get away with a faster, advantaged shooting style. Because it is not faster (unless you train to dbl discharge, which you should not be doing. Thus the "P".) and there is no advantage to have a spotter not see your hits. Regardless of your shooting style, fast shooters are hard to spot for (and I am far from being one). Dbl cocking GF's shoot fast no matter how they shoot in most cases and are subject to incorrect calls. I double cock when I draw my pistols and to prevent crossing over in some target sequences, not to gain an advantage over other shooters.

 

I do not think that a "P" for shooting too fast is proper. Why should a GF have a speed limit? But it needs to be there for those that think they can take advantage of the situation by confusing spotters I guess. But it is just as corrupt to call a "P" because you were not prepared to spot for that shooting style (I call a "P" because I couldn't keep up...). I have seen GF's actually tell the spotters how they planed to shoot the stage so they can keep up. You can not effectively hear and see each shot when your not prepared for what is coming, but that is no reason for a "P". 

 

I spot all the time when I can. I have no problem saying "I couldn't keep up", or say "I couldn't see all shots fired" when I call fewer misses than the other spotters. We all have a different perspective. That is why there are three.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Hoss said:

in the situation, the TO was rightly watching the guns, so he saw the ten rounds fired. I think the call likely should have been a P.  but the TO made it a no call. the shooter did take the warning however, and did not do it again.

 

on an aside, the shooter was grumbling about it at his cart after the stage. Thought he was done wrong. He said the timer would show 10 shots, and thats what counted and should have been checked. I told him that whatever the shot counter showed would really have no bearing.  But I would have liked to seen it, I'm willing to bet my hat that it did not record 24 shots. 

 

 

That is where all this argument is coming from. If the timer could separate the shots, it does matter. It is better at it than a spotters ears. 

Yes, there is probability that the timer did not pick up everything if he shot as you describe, but that is by no means a proper 'assumption' to call.

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5 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

I would agree Deuce...

 

 

On most occasions this issue is not a shooter disregarding the rules any more than it is a non-gunfighter listening for the "P" rather than looking for a miss. Most GF's will take the call, or give it to themselves.

 

How many here complaining shoot GF? Those that do shoot GF, know all too well of what is coming if they dbl discharge or come close. There is no benefit in trying to bend the rules, when the result is a higher probability that spotters will call a miss because they can't keep up. A 5 sec. miss is worse than shooting .1 sec slower. We don't select GF so we can confuse spotters and get away with a faster, advantaged shooting style. Because it is not faster (unless you train to dbl discharge, which you should not be doing. Thus the "P".) and there is no advantage to have a spotter not see your hits. Regardless of your shooting style, fast shooters are hard to spot for (and I am far from being one). Dbl cocking GF's shoot fast no matter how they shoot in most cases and are subject to incorrect calls. I double cock when I draw my pistols and to prevent crossing over in some target sequences, not to gain an advantage over other shooters.

 

I do not think that a "P" for shooting too fast is proper. Why should a GF have a speed limit? But it needs to be there for those that think they can take advantage of the situation by confusing spotters I guess. But it is just as corrupt to call a "P" because you were not prepared to spot for that shooting style (I call a "P" because I couldn't keep up...). I have seen GF's actually tell the spotters how they planed to shoot the stage so they can keep up. You can not effectively hear and see each shot when your not prepared for what is coming, but that is no reason for a "P". 

 

I spot all the time when I can. I have no problem saying "I couldn't keep up", or say "I couldn't see all shots fired" when I call fewer misses than the other spotters. We all have a different perspective. That is why there are three.

 

 

I can't disagree more...I don't know where you get the idea that it's corrupt...or that spotters are not prepared???

 

The rules are the rules. Us non GF shooters have no problem counting...we don't have this rule as a "Speed Limit"...that's silly. It's there to be consistent. Consistent in scoring for both the general population of the match as well within the GF category itself.

 

Frankly, I'm getting tired of some GF's complaining about the penalty for "Double shooting" and "non-GF friendly" stages.

 

Oy!

 

Phantom

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4 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

That is where all this argument is coming from. If the timer could separate the shots, it does matter. It is better at it than a spotters ears. 

Yes, there is probability that the timer did not pick up everything if he shot as you describe, but that is by no means a proper 'assumption' to call.

Please tell me you're kidding.

 

You want to go to the timer to verify rounds shot? Good luck with that!

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Wyatt said:

Oh great! Another three pages of............

 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY WIDDER!

Just for Wyatt, ;) I'm sidelining this thread to wish my BFF, Widder a happy birthday! :wub:

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Can somebody enlighten me how we got from "to facilitate scoring" to discernable shots? Is the word discern even used in the SHB in this context? 

 

It sounds like this penalty can be called with a broad brush or a fine one. There is no clearly printed readily available definition by split time as to what constitutes "fired individually". One could clearly presume that no two fingers are going to pull the trigger on the exact millisecond and no two actions are going to strike on the exact same millisecond. This leaves the governance of the discharge to the rate of chemical combustion in primer compounds and powder charges which are elements beyond the shooter's control. 

 

Please refrain from any further regulation of the funnest category which already has suffered enough mother-may-I and protection from incompetence that should be MDQd until it adjusts itself or doesn't come back. 

 

Annual greetings, salutations, celebrations and gesticulations to the pleasant gentleman what resides in Tennessee.

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Hey Blast,

 

The first time I shot with a double cocking GF who made simultaneous discharges, I was told by another counter that he always did it and thought it was funny to confuse the counters.

 

This was before the progressive penalty came into being. I rightly/wrongly called five misses. I was told by the same counter that there was no penalty for a simultaneous discharge. I let it go as the GF was also our PM and this was a match that was a long way from home..

 

My opinion is, while this rule exists, it should be adhered to. I also believe that today most GF today are aware of the rule, which is a good thing and should lead to less infractions.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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14 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hey Blast,

 

The first time I shot with a double cocking GF who made simultaneous discharges, I was told by another counter that he always did it and thought it was funny to confuse the counters.

 

This was before the progressive penalty came into being. I rightly/wrongly called five misses. I was told by the same counter that there was no penalty for a simultaneous discharge. I let it go as the GF was also our PM and this was a match that was a long way from home..

 

My opinion is, while this rule exists, it should be adhered to. I also believe that today most GF today are aware of the rule, which is a good thing and should lead to less infractions.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

That is why it's there.

 

But that does not justify a "P" because it 'sounded' too close together and he was a GF.

 

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37 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Please tell me you're kidding.

 

You want to go to the timer to verify rounds shot? Good luck with that!

 

Phantom

Try reading 'slowly'. Your double cocking again...

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3 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

Try reading 'slowly'. Your double cocking again...

Is this supposed to be funny...or...what?

 

Timers suck at keeping track of shots fired.  Do you think that they don't???

 

Phantom

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42 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I can't disagree more...I don't know where you get the idea that it's corrupt...or that spotters are not prepared???

Because I watch it happen...

 

The rules are the rules. Us non GF shooters have no problem counting...we don't have this rule as a "Speed Limit"...that's silly. It's there to be consistent. Consistent in scoring for both the general population of the match as well within the GF category itself.

I never said anything about the rule, it's about how it is applied sometime.

 

Frankly, I'm getting tired of some GF's complaining about the penalty for "Double shooting" and "non-GF friendly" stages.

And Frankly I'm tired of non-GF's complaining when they can't keep up and call a "P" when it was not. Who cares what we're tired of?

 

42 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oy!

 

Phantom

 

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Is this supposed to be funny...or...what?

 

Timers suck at keeping track of shots fired.  Do you think that they don't???

 

Phantom

I agree,my point is you can not assume that a timer didn't catch it if you didn't look.

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1 minute ago, Blast Masterson said:

 

 

Well you do have a wealth of knowledge in this game...but the issue at hand is Double Cocking and then pulling the triggers so that two shots go off at essentially the same time where it's impossible for the average human ear/brain to discern two separate shots.

 

When this happens, errors occur. This can leave to inconsistency in the match. This is bad. Therefore, the rule.

 

Oy!

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Blast Masterson said:

That is why it's there.

 

But that does not justify a "P" because it 'sounded' too close together and he was a GF.

 

Actually it does justify the P. 

 

If you choose to shoot gunfighter you have to accept the fact that if you discharge your pistols so closely together that spotters are unable to distinguish individual shots you are not entitled to the benefit of the doubt.  That's the rule, the reasoning behind it has been explained pretty well.  You can argue that it shouldn't be the rule, but until it's changed you either live with it, or expect to get penalties.   Pretty simple. 

 

There is no such rule governing traditional shooters, so if their shots are super close together they could potentially get the benefit of the doubt. 

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Thanks for posting, Blast as your statements actually prove the points I've been making.

 

And you admit that you can not accurately spot for some GF when they shoot this way.

 

The first time I shot gunfighter was 1995.  Back then we had to wait for a stage with only one pistol, then we requested to shoot one gun loaded with 3 and the other with 2.  IT was fun and many of us tried it. We worked hard to get the category approved. fI didn't always shoot gunfighter in part since it was not an approved category.  We had a lot of resistance.  At first, folks had to be certified to shoot GF.  If we would have been both double-cocking and certainly double shooting, I doubt the category would never have been allowed.

 

Then I would shoot it some but mostly shot with a multiple World champion gunfighter and an almost as good pard as well.  (He was and is the State Champ regularly.)  Even when i was not shooting GF, we would strategize how best to shoot it GF.  So I have a couple of decades of experience with it with mediocre to world class shooters.

 

A key issue has been left out of this discussion.

 

Would you want to spot for a T.O. that refused to support your spotting duties?

Being a range officer - spotting, timing, working tables is a team effort.  No one can do it all so we need to work together.

 

- So the T.O. believes he or she can determine that the shots were not at exactly the same instance.  So what. 

 

 - Is the TO spotting?  Can the TO accurately determine if hits were made?

 

So the T.O. needs to support the spotters and be willing to replace spotters that are not doing it properly.  And support those who are.

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Piss... moan...

 

We have three spotters for a reason. Each make the call they see (hear) or not. Deal with it.

Do gunfighters really need to fire two rounds within a millisecond of each other?

Maybe if we make the rule: within a nanosecond is a violation, within a millisecond is ok.

Yikes!

piss... moan...

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