WTC

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Stage Instructions

shooter standing at Position A with shotgun in hand, pointed safely down. Pistols are holstered. Rifle staged on vertical rack at position B.

 

ATB: Engage the four shotgun targets from starting position then move to Position B. Stage shotgun on vertical rack at position B.

          Rifle, from position B, engage the three rifle targets at least two times each with no multi taps. Restage rifle in vertical rack.

          Pistols, from position C, engage the pistol targets the same as the rifle.

 

Shooter successfully engages the four shotgun targets from position A, shucks out the spent hulls, and closes the shotgun. Shooter then proceeds to position B and stages the shotgun in the vertical rack. Shooter shoots the rifle in the following sequence: R1, R2, R1, R2, R1, R2, R3, R2, R3, R2. Shooter returns the rifle to the rack and proceeds to position C where the shoot the pistols in the following sequence: P1, P2, P3, P2, P1, P3, P2, P1, P2, P3.

 

What say you?

 

 

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

What am I suppose to say about "what"?

 

[Patagonia Pete]

This is always trouble because the shooting problem for the rifle had multiple solutions … and … the shooter was instructed to engage the pistol targets the same as the rifle.

 

Some will say the shooter should have shot the exact same sequence chosen for the rifle … others will say the instructions for the rifle were followed (even though a different sequence was chosen).

 

If the shooter would have been instructed to shoot the same "instructions" as the rifle … or the same "sequence" as the rifle the intent would have been clear.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

20 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

at least two times each with no multi taps

 

Depends on whether that means IN EXACTLY THE SAME ORDER or FOLLOWING THE SAME INSTRUCTION as for the rifle engagement.

That SHOULD BE clarified in the stage instructions themselves; by match convention; or by the PM during the reading of the stage.

 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Clean........next shooter

[Three Foot Johnson]

Insufficient information in the stage instructions to award a "P". No call.

 

 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Shooter is clean..

Next shooter..

instructions to the posse did not say

"Engage pistol target in the same (or exactly the same) order as the rifle.."

 

Rance 

That' my Thinkin'..

[Chief Rick]

Can't judge the writer's intent, only the instructions. 

 

"Engage the pistol targets the same as the rifle" does not mean the same thing as "engage the pistol targets as per rifle instructions". 

[Ruidoso, SASS #66801]

Minor Safety for re staging

shotgun closed

[Assassin]

Moving with a closed cocked shotgun is a penalty. SDQ

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

5 minutes ago, Ruidoso, SASS #66801 said:

Minor Safety for re staging

shotgun closed

 

Oops!! Never even caught that..

Yer correct..

but is that what the OP is questioning? 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Without ANY further information it has to be a stoopid P.

 

Does not say to use the rifle instructions but to shoot it the same as you shot the rifle.

 

Without clarification, intent is meaningless.

[Eyesa Horg]

First, I think we have a MSV for moving with the shotgun closed and my interpretation of the pistol is that it should be shot the same as the rifle as in the same sequence. I however would have clarified that B4 the first shooter went to the line. Therefore an MSV and a P.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

IF the shooter had a HAMMERLESS shotgun the target engagement order  is mute.

SHB page 22   Stage Disqualifications:

 Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked.

[Patagonia Pete]

He emptied his shotgun ... There is no rule requirement that the shotgun must be restaged open ...

 

- Shotguns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointing in a safe direction. If the action closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear.

 

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Shotguns A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only: - Empty.

A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only: - Action open, round in chamber or on carrier. - Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed.

[Barry Sloe]

There is no MSV for staging the SG closed.  The shooter is required to show empty to the TO at the end of the stage.  The MSV would be for having hulls still in the chambers, not staging. Patagonia Pete beat me to this one.

 

SHB pg 22:  "Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked."  SDQ 

If the shooter had a hammerless SG then he earned a SDQ.  If they had a hammered SG it would depend on the status of the hammers.

 

And, just my personal opinion, it would seem to me that this SDQ needs to be addressed by the TGs.  Where is the hazard with moving with an EMPTY, closed SG, even if the hammers are cocked???  As per the OP, the spent hulls were ejected.

 

Yep, just two cents worth,

BS

 

[Assassin]

You can't move with a closed cocked long gun.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Patagonia Pete:  Read the rule you just posted:    .........Hammers fully down ...........   If you open a hammrless shotgun, empty the shells and then close it the hammers are cocked. 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

1 hour ago, Ruidoso, SASS #66801 said:

Minor Safety for re staging

shotgun closed

Please show me where this is in the rules.

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Moving with a closed cocked shotgun is a penalty. SDQ

Only if it is a hammerless shotgun.

 

[Assassin]

1 minute ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Only if it is a hammerless shotgun.

 

Then it isn't cocked is it?

[Three Foot Johnson]

External hammers or internal hammers/strikers, cocked is cocked.

[Patagonia Pete]

3 minutes ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

Patagonia Pete:  Read the rule you just posted:    .........Hammers fully down ...........   If you open a hammrless shotgun, empty the shells and then close it the hammers are cocked. 

Well I really posted that in response to the comment about re-staging closed ... but since you mention it ... I always shoot my hammerless double with a finger on each trigger ... have always done that.

Although I wouldn't normally attempt to move closed ... I can assure you when I dump shells and pull both triggers (has happened sometimes as I pull my hand out and sometimes intentionally) the barrels snap close and the hammers are indeed down ... but of course no one can see that.

I suppose that would be up to the TO to determine when the gun was inspected at the end of the stage (does it fall open with the lever is moved??).

Is someone going to guess the condition of the gun if I were moving?? 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

We don't know if the hammers were cocked. It is up to the TO to check at the end of the stage.

 

[Patagonia Pete]

2 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

We don't know if the hammers were cocked. It is up to the TO to check at the end of the stage.

 

Thank You!  (were gonna catch it now ... ) ...  

[Ace_of_Hearts]

"the same as the rifle" is a very ambiguous way to write the instructions.

 

The same SEQUENCE as the rifle?

or

The same INSTRUCTIONS as the rifle?

 

These words make a big difference to many on how they would shoot the stage.

 

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I am not here to start an argument,  just to point out the pertinent rule.  Normally the CRO/TO would stop the shooter when they moved with the closed SG (unless it was a hammered SG) and then check to see if the hammers were cocked. Easy, just pull the trigger/s and listen for the hammer/s to fall. If they fall, SDQ, if not reshoot for "impeding the shooter" .  Simple easy call if the CRO/TO is paying attention. 

[Patagonia Pete]

16 minutes ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

I am not here to start an argument,  just to point out the pertinent rule.  Normally the CRO/TO would stop the shooter when they moved with the closed SG (unless it was a hammered SG) and then check to see if the hammers were cocked. Easy, just pull the trigger/s and listen for the hammer/s to fall. If they fall, SDQ, if not reshoot for "impeding the shooter" .  Simple easy call if the CRO/TO is paying attention. 

HJ ... no argument ... I appreciate you pointing out the hammer down / movement thing ... I had not really paid any attention to that before ... but now ... if it "snaps closed" in the future I will be better prepared to defend myself.

I have actually seen some vertical staging starting to return some places (along with "stage safely anywhere" wording) and ... letting a sxs snap shut can free a hand. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

A key question is, Did the shooter move with the shotgun (more than one step) once the shotgun was closed?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Back to the original point asked by OP.  Since the stage instructions were written to say NEITHER "with the same instructions" nor "with the same target order/sequence"  you do not have any grounds to assume the more critical of the two types of "same as".  Benefit of doubt to shooter.  No Call for that part.  Clean up the stage descriptions before you start penalizing the shooter!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

8 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Stage Instructions

shooter standing at Position A with shotgun in hand, pointed safely down. Pistols are holstered. Rifle staged on vertical rack at position B.

 

ATB: Engage the four shotgun targets from starting position then move to Position B. Stage shotgun on vertical rack at position B.

          Rifle, from position B, engage the three rifle targets at least two times each with no multi taps. Restage rifle in vertical rack.

          Pistols, from position C, engage the pistol targets the same as the rifle.

 

Shooter successfully engages the four shotgun targets from position A, shucks out the spent hulls, and closes the shotgun. Shooter then proceeds to position B and stages the shotgun in the vertical rack. Shooter shoots the rifle in the following sequence: R1, R2, R1, R2, R1, R2, R3, R2, R3, R2. Shooter returns the rifle to the rack and proceeds to position C where the shoot the pistols in the following sequence: P1, P2, P3, P2, P1, P3, P2, P1, P2, P3.

 

What say you?

 

 

 

Next shooter please, did I miss something?

 

Randy

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

5 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

External hammers or internal hammers/strikers, cocked is cocked.

Guess I should have ready all replies, went right over my head about closing and then moving.

 

Randy

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

yep, you gotta read a post carefully,,, 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

16 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

"the same as the rifle" is a very ambiguous way to write the instructions.

 

The same SEQUENCE as the rifle?

or

The same INSTRUCTIONS as the rifle?

 

These words make a big difference to many on how they would shoot the stage.

 

 

I agree, ACE.

 

And if I may, I will add another way of interpreting "the same as the rifle"........

 

If the shooter fired the rifle from the shoulder, then would the shooter also be require to

fire the pistols ... "the same as the rifle"... and have to fire them from the shoulder also?

 

"the same as the rifle" allows the shooters some wide variances of interpretations and 'creativity'.

 

Remember that word,  "Creativity"?   It was often used in a previous post concerning multi-tap 

interpretations.

 

..........Widder

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

.