1860 Winchester/Henry Questions

[Cholla]

As a media member, I have the opportunity to buy a Henry Original, made by Henry, at a nice discount. But, when I bring it up to other SASS members, I keep hearing how they are a safety issue and not allowed at some SASS events. I can't find anything in the rules stating this.

 

I would like to hear first hand from those members that shoot a Henry Original/1860 Winchester on what they like or dislike and if the safety issue is real or imagined. The most common second-hand story I hear is a chain fire in the tube, yet it seems to my uneducated way of thinking, a flat-nose bullet used with hardened primers should be safe in a tube magazine.

 

I don't want to start WWIII on the board... but I really love the looks of the gun... but don't need to have another firearm-induced near-death experience. This is NOT about the Henry Big Boy. This is about the Henry made in the USA replica of the 1860 Henry/Winchester.

 

Thanks.

[Major Crimes]

I have seen a number of the Uberti 1860 copies/clones used here in Australia and apart from being harder to load on the clock no one bats an eye at them.

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

There’s a part of me that would love to own one but there is no part of me that wants to compete with one. Having to adjust your forward hand for that returning follower is to fiddly for a crusty old buzzard like me.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Load them with the rifle held slightly off horizontal to the rounds don't slam against each other as you put them in.

Be careful picking up your Henry off the prop that you don't catch the follower and cause it to pull up and then slam back down on the rounds in the magazine.

Make yourself a wooden stick that goes between the follower and the rounds ala DRIFTWOOD JOHNSON.

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=3287.msg24417#msg24417

Prevents the shooter from having to do the "Henry Hop" too

 

The safety issue is real for people who are sloppy & careless but maybe they shouldn't be shooting if they are like that.

You know 1866s don't have a lever safety & nobody bad-mouths them, but folks with 1866s have out of battery discharges from time-to-time

I have 4 Uberti Henry's & shoot 'em every week. 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

You can make a follower out of a wooden dowel that eliminates the henry hop, don't let the follower slam down on live rounds  lower it slowly., and load the magazine at an angle so that rounds don't drop on to each other.

Rafe

[Jax T]

Is there any differences in the Henry 1860 and the Uberti 1860 as far as how well they are built??  I have a new Henry 1860 and thought about using it for classic as well as my 1866. 

Jax T

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

56 minutes ago, Jax T said:

Is there any differences in the Henry 1860 and the Uberti 1860 as far as how well they are built??  I have a new Henry 1860 and thought about using it for classic as well as my 1866. 

Jax T

Functionally no different. The only difference between it and your ‘66 is lack of a loading gate.  

 

Oh yeah, you’ll have to hold it different. Good advice above.

 

Have fun with it in classic. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Load them with the rifle held slightly off horizontal to the rounds don't slam against each other as you put them in.

Be careful picking up your Henry off the prop that you don't catch the follower and cause it to pull up and then slam back down on the rounds in the magazine.

Make yourself a wooden stick that goes between the follower and the rounds ala DRIFTWOOD JOHNSON.

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=3287.msg24417#msg24417

Prevents the shooter from having to do the "Henry Hop" too

 

The safety issue is real for people who are sloppy & careless but maybe they shouldn't be shooting if they are like that.

You know 1866s don't have a lever safety & nobody bad-mouths them, but folks with 1866s have out of battery discharges from time-to-time

I have 4 Uberti Henry's & shoot 'em every week. 

 

Big +1

[Sixgun Sheridan]

The original 1860 rifles were chambered in .44 Henry Rimfire, thus dropping rounds into the tube and letting the follower slam home wasn't a problem as the rims weren't hitting each other. With the new replicas you're using centerfire cartridges so the bullet noses contact the primers. Using flat-nosed ammo reduces the chances of a chain fire inside the tube but it still doesn't eliminate it.

 

Other vices with the 1860 in general are the follower tab getting in the way of your hand as you shoot, and the barrel getting uncomfortably hot to hold especially when shooting black powder loads. The 1860 Henry was a quantum leap in firearms technology at the time, but it obviously wasn't perfect and today's replicas display the same obnoxious traits. The 1866 was much improved and just as pretty since it also used a brass receiver.

.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

There is about a 1" difference in the stock drop.

To shoot the 1860 you will need to stand more upright.

Leaning forward on to the stock, you will have a very hard time lining up the sights.

 

Stand up straight.

-----------------

After you have loaded all the rounds in the tube with the rifle laying flat on the table, slowly raise the muzzle allowing the rounds to slide down the tube.

Now look to see where the last round is and wrap your left hand around the barrel above the rounds.

If the follower should slip while lowering it, the follower will hit your hand and not impact on the loaded rounds.

Slowly slide your hand down until the follower contacts the last round.

 

[July Smith]

I started with and still occasionally shoot my Uberti 1860 in 44-40.  Very classy rifle!  Not aware of any safety issues other than the obvious ones.  The barrels can get hot and you are not supposed to just drop cartridges into the tube with the rifle pointed vertically. 

 

The Henry brand 1860s are high quality and if presented a good deal I would not hesitate to purchase one.  However, I would not pay more for a Henry than a Uberti.  I have had a chance to compare a few Henrys side by side with the Ubertis, I did not like how all the Henrys seemed over polished.  Every surface was rounded.  Even the octagonal barrels had rounded edges to them, just looked odd to me.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I have been shooting an Uberti 1860 Henry in CAS for about ten years now.

 

There is no SASS rule against them, anybody who says so does not know what they are talking about.

 

Regarding cartridges firing in the magazine, odd as it seems, with a flat point bullet with a metplat (the flat part) large enough in diameter to cover over the primer hole completely, one would not expect a bullet slamming into the case in front of it to be able to fire a primer, as long as the primers are seated subflush. Yet it has happened. Particularly if the follower is allowed to slam down onto a column of cartridges under full spring power. I have long suspected something else is happening in this case, perhaps the primers were not seated subflush. Or perhaps something else is happening, for instance momentum dislodging the primer cup enough so that it slams into the primer anvil.

 

Anyway, the two cautions about loading a Henry are

 

1. Never drop the ammo straight down the tube vertically, and

2. Keep control of the follower at all times, do not allow it to slam down onto a column of cartridges in the magazine.

 

My technique for loading is simple. After opening the magazine I wrap my left hand around the barrel and magazine to prevent the follower from moving if it accidentally gets dislodged. If the follower gets away, it will hurt when it hits my hand, but that is better than the alternative. So with my hand wrapped around the barrel and magazine the rifle is tilted slightly, I feed the rounds down the magazine one at a time. They tend to trickle nicely down the magazine. After loading 10 rounds I insert my spacer stick. Then I close the magazine. All done.

 

The spacer stick serves two purposes. It prevents the follower tab from going all the way to the frame. Since I tend to hold the gun with my left hand next to the frame, the follower tab never reaches my hand, hence I do not have to do the Henry Hop. The second purpose of the spacer stick is it takes up almost all the extra room in the magazine, so if I happened to lose my grip on the follower tab as I lowered it, the follower would only travel about 1/2" or so, not enough distance for the spring to accelerate it very much.

 

Here is my spacer stick.

 

 

 

 

 

Here it is inserted after the 10th round. Notice how tiny the amount is that the follower has moved to reach the stick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the position of the follower and spacer after the last round. The follower has not moved far enough to contact my left hand.

 

 

 

 

 

I am always careful when moving the rifle so that nothing snags the follower tab when moving the rifle. I have also refused to use a scabbard on occasion at a big match because I was concerned that the scabbard might snag the follower tab. The match director allowed me to stage the rifle outside of the scabbard.

 

 

 

Yes, the Henry rifle was a tremendous improvement in firepower over a muzzle loader.

 

 

 

 

 

However the open slot at the bottom of the magazine could foul up fairly easily with mud in the field, and in combat most soldiers were probably loading the original 44 Henry Rimfire rounds vertically, exposing themselves to enemy fire. The Henry rifle was only produced from 1862 until 1866, when the Model 1866 Winchester appeared with its patented King's loading gate, eliminating the slot on the bottom of the Henry and allowing a wooden forearm to be added to the rifle.

 

Yes, a Henry gets hot, particularly when fired with Black Powder. I always wear a glove on my left hand during the hot summer months so I don't get burned.

 

And because the barrel and magazine are milled from one solid bar of steel, the 1860 Henry weighs a full pound more than a Model 1873 Winchester of the same caliber and barrel length.

 

My Henry is the Iron Frame model. It is actually steel, but it is called the Iron Frame model. Nobody really knows how many Iron Frames were made, the best guess is something around 400 of the first rifles produced had iron frames. This is probably because all the machinery to fabricate the parts had not arrived at the factory yet, so Oliver Winchester contracted with other companies to produce iron frames. After the first 400 or so Iron Frames were made, the rest had Gunmetal frames, a form of bronze, not brass. But they are always called brass frames because they were yellow. Current brass framed Henry rifles made by Uberti and the Henry Repeating Arms company indeed do have brass frames. For this reason, ammunition should be kept to SAAMI maximum specs not any hotter.

 

 

 

 

 

Just as with the 1866 Winchester, there is no lever safety on the Henry, so care must be taken to not trip the trigger while closing the lever.

 

However I would certainly not call any of these 'obnoxious traits'. I prefer to think of the Henry as the Thinking Man's Rifle, which demands a bit more attention than a rifle with a side loading gate.

 

P.S. I too have examined the Original Henry Rifles manufactured by HRAC and I too am of the opinion that they are over polished.

 

 

[Jax T]

Great post Driftwood. Like you I was not real happy with the over polished wood when I received my Henry, but it is still a nice looking gun. Looks like all I need is a follower and it will be ready for a match. Thanks to all for the info.

 

Jax T

[Lawman Mays]

I have the U.S. made 1860 Henry and love it. Haven't used it in a CA shooting match yet, but will trout it out one of these days. All of the info you need to know is stated by Prairie Dawg and Driftwood Johnson above.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

1 hour ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

So the .44 Henry had an effective range of 1000 yards? That reminds me of the old Colt ad showing a man taking on a Grizzly bear with one of the new .38 Super 1911s. I could only imagine the "after" photo of a badly-mauled man having a gun surgically removed from his rear end.

[Hashknife Cowboy]

I have a Uberti brass frame .45 and if the money Genie ever makes an appearance I will upgrade to the Henry (44-40) made in the USA.  This is not your typical rifle so always keep that in mind when carrying one or shooting one.  I also use a space stick to limit the capacity to 10 rounds  and the flat point of the bullet is slightly larger in diameter that the diameter of a large pistol primer.  I load Triple 7 in front of Winchester primers and shoot a 205 gr RNFP lead bullet.  I have never had a problem of any type.  I have also heard the rumor of chain fires but asked several and could never confirm.  I shoot mine often and will continue to do so without worry, flat point bullets are the key I believe.

 

Downside:  That dang barrel will get hot, a leather glove comes in handy.

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE to PRAIRIE DAWG

           and

PLUS ONE to DRIFTWOOD JOHNSON

           and

I've only been shooting Brass Frame Henry (Uberti) rifles as my Main Match rifles for about 15+ years.  FUN!!  Nothing Obnoxious about a Henry.  FUN!!  A little care must be taken when loading.  FUN!!  With an inexpensive cartridge stop/bolt modification, you can run C45S cases and load 18 in the magazine.  Did I mention ..... FUN!!!!

 

PS:  Forgot, I'm only running 4 Henry Rifles.  Barrel lengths from 16 1/4 inches to 24 1/4 Inches.  Gobs of FUN!!

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

NO Issues on the HRA  Henry 1860 that I have ever heard of.

I shot the Uberti Henry 1860 44/40 with my Pietta's 1860's Cap Guns and a Hammered 12ga .

Much fun !

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

5 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

So the .44 Henry had an effective range of 1000 yards? That reminds me of the old Colt ad showing a man taking on a Grizzly bear with one of the new .38 Super 1911s. I could only imagine the "after" photo of a badly-mauled man having a gun surgically removed from his rear end.

 

That advertisement was from the 1860s, long before Truth in Advertising laws were passed. It was common for 19th Century manufacturers to make extravagant claims for products, that could not be backed up by scientific evidence. The first Truth in Advertising Law was the Food and Drug act, passed in 1906 to halt the sales of phony patent medicines that were mainly nothing more than alcohol.

 

The claim of discharging the Henry rifle 16 times without reloading stems from the original magazine capacity of 15 rounds of 44 Henry Rimfire ammunition. Today, Henry rifles are only chambered for 45 Colt and 44-40. These rounds are significantly longer than the old 44 Henry round. If I recall correctly, I can maybe stuff 13 rounds of 44-40 ammunition into my Henry. In addition, the frame had to be lengthened slightly in the carrier area on the modern reproductions to be able to house a longer carrier capable of holding the longer rounds. If you ever get a chance to examine an original, check out how much shorter the carrier is than the modern replicas.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

One other thing I noticed... I don't know about the bronze gunmetal of the originals, but the brass used in the reproductions is SOFT. My 1866 came with several nicks from careless factory assembly, and I thought I'd need a file to clean them up. A few strokes with 400-grit sandpaper and they were gone. Also, just using too coarse a rag to wipe it down will put a bunch of hairline scratches in it.

[Dead River Den, SASS#915]

All good info, ive used a henry for years, i also wont shoot out of a scabbard, another thing to watch out for when loading is the edges on the loading tube they can slice you pretty good. Take care, stay safe DRD

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I've also got a Henry, .44-40 Uberti made, and I have a spacer like Driftwoods.   Eliminates the need to do the so called, "Henry Hop."   Other than the loading, there is really no difference between it, and a 66 or 73.

 

They are fun to shoot, and there is a "feel" to them that is quite unique. 

 

 

This is my Henry and my 66.  As you can see, (other than the fact that the Henry is a rifle and the 66 a carbine) the only real difference between them is the way you load them, and wooden forestock.   You can alo see how they evolved into the '73

 

Now, as to something Driftwood said about the lack of a lever safety...

 

 

As you can see, my 66 has a 73 style lever safety.  This was a feature on the very early ones imported by Navy Arms.   The originals, nor the newly made ones, did not have it.   Why they added it, and then why they discontinued it, I do not know.   My Henry does not have this feature, and I don't believe any of the reproductions ever did.  

 

About the frame...

 

 

Again, the very early 66's were much closer proportionally to the originals.  As such, the frame is not quite long enough for the .44-40 to be ejected.  So, they cut that little notch in it so you can do so.

 

Any excuse to share pics.

[watab kid]

i have had no issues - there is no handguard - the barrel can get warm , there is that follower , you see how some address the 'hop' - i just hop , you dont want to let the follower slam down on the cartridges when loading - can compress or could ignite - i use RNFP bullets , they work fine for me , nothing wrong with these rifles , they look great and function fine just always be aware and safe as with all firearms , 

 

seen a fast shooter punch the trigger through his fingertip on more than one occasion but those were 1873s - could happen tho .... 

[Griff]

I have heard rumors of particular ranges not allowing the 1860 Henry.  But, in all my travels around the country, I personally, have not encountered such a prohibition.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Were I to arrive, after a long drive, at a range only to be told my Henry wasn't allowed, the ensuing conversation would be very heated and very very LOUD.  Then I'd leave.

 

The Henry Repeating Arms 1860 Henry may be a mite over buffed, but, that rifle is extremely well made.  I'm saving up for an HRA Iron Frame.

[Cholla]

I think you have made up my mind for me. Now I need to fund it...

[COAL CAR KID, SASS #15921]

I shoot my Henry quite a bit; there's a few ranges around my area that don't allow the Henry because of incidents where a shooter that didn't take the proper precautions and managed to blow theirs up at a shoot. Both incidents involved loss of control of the follower.

Paying attention to the details and taking the proper care with it, an 1860 Henry is as safe as any other rifle we use in the game.

I don't use any kind of stick in my magazine; I shoot mine as is, and the Henry hop is part of shooting one.

I shot my Henry so much; first time I took my 1866 to a shoot, I was still doing the Henry hop.

 

Just like other things in shooting; some folks shouldn't reload, there are some folks shouldn't shoot an 1860 Henry.