BP Sub load for 45-70 Springfield Trapdoor

[Krazy Kajun]

I have a friend at church that has an old Springfield trapdoor in 45-70.  He bought a box of 45-70 smokeless rounds (300 gr ballistic tips) just to get the brass and bullets...he is not a reloader.  We know that those rounds can not be shot in this old trapdoor and he asked me to load some BP rounds for him. So.....I pulled the bullets and the smokeless powder is now fertilizing my grass and I need to put together a load for this cartridge...the intent is just putting holes in paper, not any long range shooting competition. 

 

I have some Hodgdon Triple Seven FFG and also some FFFg powder on hand.  I want to reuse these same bullets so they are just 300 grain bullets and I need to see if anyone has developed a load using Triple Seven. TIA

 

Kajun

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Hey KK:

Not quite what you are asking for, but I load 45-70 roundball loads for local plainsman matches.

About half a case of APP, half a case of filler, and a 457 roundball.

They shoot like laser beams & ring every target I've tried them on, out to about 75 yards.

--Dawg

[Krazy Kajun]

This is a 45-70 cartridge....bullet.  My friend bought a 20 round box of 45-70 Government 300 gr ballistic tip bullets from a local gun store. He wants to be able to shoot his old Springfield 45-70 trap door rifle that he has so he needs some black powder rounds to shoot out of this trap door.  He bought the smokeless rounds so that he would have the brass, primers and bullets for me to use to load for him.  I'll get to shoot it too so I'm going to load the rounds up for him.  It is just shooting for fun putting holes in paper, not any long range shooting competition.  I have a good bit of Hodgdon Triple Seven, 2f and 3f on hand so I'd like to use that powder.  I'm looking for a load using that combination.

 

Kajun

 

[Yusta B.]

I load like Praire Dawg using FFF Pinnacle with 200 gr unsized cowboy bullets with a couple coats of Lee liquid Alox, with the same results.

[J.D. Daily]

Unless the trapdoor is unsafe to shoot with BP loads or the box of store bought smokeless 45-70 loads are marked not for use in a Springfield or trapdoor rifle or only for use in Winchester 1886 or 1895, Ruger No. 1, etc. the pressure won't exceed the SAMI spec. for the trapdoor rifle.  Otherwise the cartridge mfg. has a huge liability problem.  To be safe the rifle should be inspected by a gunsmith & proof tested.  If he doesn't mind risking damaging the rifle he could mount it in a jig on a rigid table out in the back 40 with a long string attached to the trigger.  Then hiding behind a barrier pull the string.

[Capt. L. Thos. Cryan]

It has always been my understanding the "Standard" factory 45-70 smokeless ammunition was designed so as to not damage a 1873 trapdoor Springfield. I have an original 1884 rifle that many years ago I used with factory ammunition. I believe it was Winchester with a 405gr. bullet. I fully agree that the rifle should be checked by a qualified gunsmith familiar with this rifle. Lyman's reloading handbook shows three separate loading tables that reference the rifle to be used. Maybe use the original BP

load that was designed for the carbine as it was less than the rifle load. This data should be readily available online from trusted sites.

Capt. L.T.C.

[Ramblin Gambler]

There are 3 levels of pressures in 45-70 ammunition.  Captain L.Thos.Cryan already mentioned that.  Trapdoors are the lowest of the 3.  Most commercial ammo is loaded to the middle pressure range because literally anything except an antique trapdoor is safe to use the midpressure ammo in.  If it doesn't say it's safe for trapdoor, I wouldn't shoot it in one.  Being that it's a hunting bullet, I'd bet dollars to donuts that it's not a good idea to shoot them in his gun. 

 

I am not a reloader so forgive me if I got some of the words wrong above.  If I did I'm sure someone will set me right.  I only know this stuff because I own a trapdoor and I'm just getting into long range shooting. 

 

That being said, if you have black, why not load it with 70 grains?  Isn't that what the name of the cartridge means?  Is there concern that the bullet being used will generate more pressure?  I would figure it would be less than the original loads since those were 400 and 500 grain bullets.  But then, I don't know if the jacket changes anything. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

777 develops higher pressure and a different pressure spike than Original Gunpowder.  I suggest being very careful with it in the "Old" Springfield.  You may also find 2f or 3f APP to be very friendly to his Springfield.

[Sedalia Dave]

If you wanted to use real BP or any sub but Tripple 7 would be easy to give you a load for your friends trapdoor. HOWEVER Tripple 7 is a lot hotter than BP and I would not feel comfortable using it in an original Trapdoor.

2F or 3F APP or Black MZ would be my choices for BP subs in this application.

 

BTW

If that brass is Hornady brass check the case length against the SAAMI spec.  The Hornady leverevolution brass is shorter than the SAAMI spec. For your application there is no reason not to use it just be aware that you will have to adjust your crimping die for the shorter case.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

KK 

 

  I was told many years back , NOT to feed jacketed bullets to the older guns , they will cuase a bunch of wear on the older steel , not as hard as what we have now 

 

 the older gun smith that told me this used 1900 mfg date as the cut off , same date he used for the black/ smokeless for pistols 

 

  always seemed to make sence to me , and he forgot lots more than I think I know 

 

  CB 

 

[Krazy Kajun]

19 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

KK 

 

  I was told many years back , NOT to feed jacketed bullets to the older guns , they will cuase a bunch of wear on the older steel , not as hard as what we have now 

 

 the older gun smith that told me this used 1900 mfg date as the cut off , same date he used for the black/ smokeless for pistols 

 

  always seemed to make sence to me , and he forgot lots more than I think I know 

 

  CB 

 

Thanks.... I think I'll get some cast bullets for the trap door and go from there.

 

Kajun

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

FIRST-Have a gunsmith check over this TD before any live fire.

Do NOT shoot smokeless in a BP era TD.

Make sure the bullets you use have BP lube.

I would not use 777.......

3F, REAL, BP is fine-Fill the case till the bullet compresses the powder about 1/8-3/16 of an inch.

Windex with vinegar, is a great BP cleaner.

 

[Krazy Kajun]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

FIRST-Have a gunsmith check over this TD before any live fire.

Do NOT shoot smokeless in a BP era TD.

Make sure the bullets you use have BP lube.

I would not use 777.......

3F, REAL, BP is fine-Fill the case till the bullet compresses the powder about 1/8-3/16 of an inch.

Windex with vinegar, is a great BP cleaner.

 

I could do that, have to buy some Goex but it's my friends gun, he'd have to clean it

 

Question about bullet weight....does it matter the weight of the bullet?  Would the amount of the powder still meet the same requirement, fill case till bullet compresses the powder by 1/8 inch?

 

Kajun

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Use a 400-500 gn bullet and you're GTG. YES-use lead........

I would NOT give him any ammo till you can confirm the rifle is safe to fire from a gunsmith.

OLG

 

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

Give Buffalo Arms a call.  They sell components for all of these old guns.

 

Definitely, use lead bullets and real BP.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Remington makes a .45-70 load that the box is stamped, Safe for use in all rifles.   It is the only factory smokeless round I have seen so marked.  Uses a 405 grain bullet.  Other loads the market are marked Not for use in trapdoors.

 

The trapdoor safe load works well in rifles but is a thumper in carbines.

 

Take that with a grain of salt 

[John Boy]

Kajun, your answer for the powder charge ratio using Triple Seven is on the the Hodgdon website:

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.muzzleloader-gunpowder-substitutes.html

And yes, you can use smokeless powder reload charges for the trapdoor using Trapdoor Reload Charges:

* Again got to the Hodgdon website loading data tables and look up 45-70 TRAPDOOR RIFLES

* Scroll to the bottom of this website ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

* Here's another source with is in the SASS FAQ tables ... http://reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

( Do not use any of this data with guns designed for black powder loads or any original TRAPDOOR rifles, EXCEPT WHERE NOTED that it is a "TRAPDOOR" Load. If condition of old gun is doubtful, even these loads could be risky. Consider using original Black Powder loads and lead bullet for old guns. )

[Ramblin Gambler]

On 3/5/2018 at 4:27 PM, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

KK 

 

  I was told many years back , NOT to feed jacketed bullets to the older guns , they will cuase a bunch of wear on the older steel , not as hard as what we have now 

 

 the older gun smith that told me this used 1900 mfg date as the cut off , same date he used for the black/ smokeless for pistols 

 

  always seemed to make sence to me , and he forgot lots more than I think I know 

 

  CB 

 

 

You reminded me of something I came across a while back.  The cutoff date for using jacketed bullets should be when the manufacturer started using nickel steel in their barrels.  I did a search and I don't see when that started, but I bet it was never used in original trapdoors. 

[Krazy Kajun]

Update....took the trap door to my local gunsmith and he said it was good to go.....just need to load lead bullets.  A good pard is going to provide some to me so I'm looking forward to shooting it.

 

Kajun

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

I have shot 535, 405 and 305 in my trapdoor and enjoy the 305 bullet much better now. I shoot FFG real black and can shoot over twenty rounds a day now without hurting my shoulder. I have shot APP as well with good results. They are fun to shoot so enjoy.

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

For my trapdoor carbine, I load 55 grains of 2F, and take up the extra space in the case with Cream of Wheat filler. 

According to my book on the .45-70, back in the day, the trap door rifles were loaded with 70 grains of gunpowder, and the trap door carbines were loaded with 55 grains of powder.  So, I took the book's advice, and use 55 grains in my carbine. 

Don't forget to remember that black powder likes to be compressed a little, so that is why, if you use a smaller charge than 70 grains, you need a filler in the cartridge case, to compress it. 

 

My two bits.

W.K.   

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

The old loads with 70 grains of BP were loaded in what are known as balloon-head cases. Most modern brass will not hold 70 grains of black without doing some fancy packing.  Don't worry about the weight so much as just getting the case loaded up to the base of the bullet , plus a little for compression. For just plinking it doesn't need to get complicated.

Keep 'em smokin' , Rex

[Three Foot Johnson]

18 hours ago, Waxahachie Kid #17017 L said:

For my trapdoor carbine, I load 55 grains of 2F, and take up the extra space in the case with Cream of Wheat filler. 

According to my book on the .45-70, back in the day, the trap door rifles were loaded with 70 grains of gunpowder, and the trap door carbines were loaded with 55 grains of powder.  So, I took the book's advice, and use 55 grains in my carbine. 

Don't forget to remember that black powder likes to be compressed a little, so that is why, if you use a smaller charge than 70 grains, you need a filler in the cartridge case, to compress it. 

 

My two bits.

W.K.   

I've always read that fillers need to be used whenever a reduced charge of black powder is used, and I understand the reasoning behind it, BUT what did they use back in the day? Was a filler or wad of some sort used in the .45-70 carbine load or the 28 grain .45 Colt load?

[John Boy]

Quote

Most modern brass will not hold 70 grains of black without doing some fancy packing.

Interesting statement ...  my standard charge for the 45-70 is 70grs of powder with no - 0.1 or 0.2 compression, powder dependent shooting 500 to 550gr bullets.

What bullets are you shooting that you can't get 70gr in a case?

[Hoss]

I have an original Trapdoor Carbine made in 1874. i tried shooting 330 grn bullets with full case APP. I could not have hit a buffalo if one swallowed me! it was all over the place. Tried some 405grn with full case APP and shoots very good. its a bit of a shoulder thumper, but I sure like shooting it! 

 

No way would I shoot any smokeless in an original TD 

[Three Foot Johnson]

Before I let my mouth overrun my experience, I went to the bench and loaded 70 grains by volume of Kik 1 1/2 into a Winchester case, and it left about 3/16" for the bullet. A 28" drop tube increased that to nearly 3/8". A standard 405 grain bullet has 9/16" sticking into the case, so a 405 grainer still has to compress the powder nearly 1/4". I'm normally around 68, tops, with a 405 and 65 with a 530 Postell. With the Postell's, I pre-compress the powder before seating the bullet.

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

Back in the day, according to the book I am looking at, for a filler for the reduced load for the trapdoor carbines, they used 55 grains of powder, and as a filler they used "cardboard tubes, or wads".  I am looking at the book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West", page 142, by Mike Venturino. 

I have also read that the hand-loaders, back in the day, would use felt, for fillers, if they had an old hat available, or layers of paper, if they had access to any paper, such as hand bills, tally books, and the like.  I have also read, somewhere, that they might use "a piece of old leather", to fill in the gap. 

I will have to look at some other sources, to find out what else they used, back then. 

I am blessed...all I have to do is run down to the local grocery store, and buy a box of Cream of Wheat.  I think that beats cardboard, felt, and a piece of old leather, and it does burn up very well.

When using my 1885 single shot rifle, I don't use a reduced load, since that action is stronger than the trapdoor carbine, I have.  But, then again, the 1885 was a John Browning design.  He was indeed a genius, in firearm design.  Winchester must have thought so too. 

W.K.    

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

16 hours ago, John Boy said:

Interesting statement ...  my standard charge for the 45-70 is 70grs of powder with no - 0.1 or 0.2 compression, powder dependent shooting 500 to 550gr bullets.

What bullets are you shooting that you can't get 70gr in a case?

Upon reflection , I should have stayed out of the discussion. That was loading the 500 gr. round-nose govt. bullet with all the grooves covered. With Goex 2F.  25 years ago.

Red-faced, properly chastised , slinking away.

Rex

[John Boy]

Rex, that's the Ideal 457125 bullet ...

457125. This is the standard .45-70-500 Government bullet. No. 6 or No. 5 tool is made for this cartridge, as well as for 457124. (PB, 500, TP is 374)

In fact, one can put a extra couple of grains of powder in the case and it is a very good bullet for 600yd Mid Range Matches. A friend uses it extensively and last year was the NJ State Mid Range Champion in his Shiloh 74 Sharps using it

This bullet has a long history.  It was the bullet used in a Springfield Trapdoor at the 1800's Rifles Trials at Sandy Hook.  It won the trials hitting a target 2 miles down range.  A famous event!
 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

18 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

Before I let my mouth overrun my experience, I went to the bench and loaded 70 grains by volume of Kik 1 1/2 into a Winchester case, and it left about 3/16" for the bullet. A 28" drop tube increased that to nearly 3/8". A standard 405 grain bullet has 9/16" sticking into the case, so a 405 grainer still has to compress the powder nearly 1/4". I'm normally around 68, tops, with a 405 and 65 with a 530 Postell. With the Postell's, I pre-compress the powder before seating the bullet.

 

Try it again, and go by scale weight this time.

What scale weight does you 70gn volume measure show?

FWIW: I have no problem get'n 70+ gns scale weight BP in a R-P .45-70 case.

OLG

 

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

I've never used weight with black powder, always volume.

 

(edit) OK, 70 grains by volume of Kik 1 1/2 = 66.2 grains by weight, so 70 grains by weight slightly overflows the case without using a drop tube.

[Lead Monger]

Interesting comparisons of weight and volume. When I weigh 70 grains of GOEX 2F and dump it in a 45-70 case it does not leave room for a bullet to be seated without crushing the powder into a solid plug. Also, when I weigh a 120 grain charge of GOEX 2F and dump it into a 45-120 case, drop tube or not, it does not leave room to seat a bullet without crushing the powder into a solid plug. Reducing the charge by just a few grains lessons the powder compression to 1/8" or so and has produced better accuracy in my rifles.

[Bailey Creek,5759]

If the Springfield trapdoor is a rifle the correct ,Bullet weight is 500 grs.  If it is a carbine the correct Bullet weight is 405 .

Make sure that the lead bullets you use are made for Black Powder shooting. If they are not after 2 rounds you cant hit anything.

I personally like Swiss Powder 1 1/2 .

In my Shiloh I use 73 grs of Swiss with a 500 gr Bullet with one band showing. This is a  thumper thou.

Bullets Lubed with SPG.

Get with Buffalo Arms . They can supply you with anything you need . Very good people .

To get Black Powder to shoot. You should get as much air out of the case as possible. That is why you use a drop tube.

[John Boy]

Quote

When I weigh 70 grains of GOEX 2F and dump it in a 45-70 case it does not leave room for a bullet to be seated without crushing the powder into a solid plug.

I'm going to tell the posters that you ALL are  full of meadow muffins up to your ear lobes when you post "it does not leave room for a bullet to be seated without crushing the powder into a solid plug."

Starline 45-70 case - 2.103"

70grs of Schutzen FFg powder weighed on digital scale ... poured into the case

* 0.104" - unsettled powder depth from the mouth of the case

* 0.290" - SETTLED powder depth using a vibrator to mouth of case.  A drop tube settling the powder will equal the same as vibrating the powder.  Unless by powder brand with no compression ... all powders will be settled to align the grains before seating the bullet.  That is BP reloading principle 101 for BPCR reloads

* 0.618 - Postell 457132 bullet - length measured to the the bottom of the driving band

* 0.328 = (0.618 - 0.290) - allowable distance to seat the Postell 535gr bullet into the SETTLED powder case to the driving band

* 0.040 =(0.290- 0.250) - Excess compression depth using recommended 1/4" compression for Schuetzen powder

 

Do you gentlemen know that ALL different bullets DO NOT have to be seated to the driving band to properly chamber?  Seating them out so the the bullet nose is engraved by the the leading lands of the bore gives better accuracy with the engraved nose directly in axis of the bore?  So compress your specific powders to the advice in the BPC News testing of accuracy compared to compression by powder brands!

 

the Black Powder Cartridge News -2009 Fall - "Some Black Powder Compression Data" article by Bob Woodfill:
Caliber - 45-70
Lyman 457124
Constant volume of FFg powder used - 70grs
Compression tested: 0" - 1/8" - 1/4" - 3/8" and 1/2"
Best 3 Shot Groups 100yds ... 5 shot groups were tested also, with the same compression values except for Goex (1/4") and Schuetzen (1/2")
Goex - 0.62" with 1/8" compression
Goex Express - 0.26" with 1/4" compression
Schuetzen - 0.61" with 1/4" (0.25") compression ... see settled powder depth of Schuetzen
Swiss - 0.56" with 1/2" ( 0.50) compression
KIK - 0.65" with 0" compression

OK, Anyone want to challenge the results and proper recommended compression by brand of powder - Bring it on!
Edit: And BTW, the Lyman 457124 bullet seating depth to the driving band is only 0.5275 vrs the Postell length being 0.618
 

[Three Foot Johnson]

Just like smokeless, differing brands of black also have different densities. I just stepped to the bench and collected some data using Swiss 1 1/2. Using 73 grains volume, as Bailey Creek uses, and a slow drop through a 30" tube, I ended up with ~.260" left in the case to seat a bullet. Definitely doable, depending on the bullet and seating depth. I then weighed the charge on a Dillon AND Pact electronic scales, and both returned 80.2 grains by weight.

 

Seventy grains volume Kik 1 1/2 only weighed 66.2 grains, so Swiss is considerably denser.