Rules, knockdowns, targets fall on their own

[Doc Shapiro]

Here’s one for the Wire. And may need an actual ruling. 

 

Stage description states 4+ shotgun shells required. 

 

Stage description states engage the 4 knockdowns until down. 

 

Shot 1 knocks down a target. 

Shot 2 is a miss

Shot 3 knocks down a target (target 2), and another target falls (target 3). 

Shot 4 knocks down the last target. 

 

Question: Are stage conventions satisfied as 4 shots were fired and 4 targets are down, OR does the shooter need to shoot where the target that fell on its own was so that all 4 we’re engaged?

 

Any chance Palewolf could chime in?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

4 shots fired. 

4 targets down

Next gun - no misses.

 

I do not personally agree with this especially if the wind or some other outside influence CLEARLY caused the target to fall.

It just isn't the cowboy way to take a gift when you know that you didn't hit the target.

The cowboy way would be to shoot a shot where the target was.

 

 

Ace

 

[Fireball #7709 Life]

Clean.  Next shooter.

[Captain Bill Burt]

All four were engaged, the second shot didn't hit the target, but could be counted as an engagement.  4 shots fired 4 targets down, next shooter.

[SHOOTIN FOX]

Stage instructions were , shotgun 4+; engage until down, 4 shots, 4 targets down, clean, next shooter.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Did shooter satisfy the required round count?  Check.

Are all targets down?  Check.

 

Once the timer goes off; the shooter owns the stage. 

We require shooters to "shoot it again" when wind from the rear keeps a target upright. 

The opposite occurs as well.

 

Sometimes you're the windshield...

Sometimes you're the bug...

[Frontier Lone Rider]

I've always been instructed to shoot where the target was.

[Doc Shapiro]

38 minutes ago, Lone Rider, SASS# 73063 said:

I've always been instructed to shoot where the target was.

 

Hence the reason I'm asking for clarification.  Several on the posse thought that the target that fell on it's own still had to be "engaged".  I disagree.  4 shots fired, 4 targets down.

 

Clarification on this situation would help a lot with confusion and ensure that we're all making the proper calls.

[Pat Riot]

Clubs wouldn't have this issue often if they set the knockdowns up in such a way that they need some amount of force to be knocked over.

 A mere breeze knocking over a metal target is ridiculous. 

[Doc Shapiro]

23 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Clubs wouldn't have this issue often if they set the knockdowns up in such a way that they need some amount of force to be knocked over.

 A mere breeze knocking over a metal target is ridiculous. 

 

That's true.  But in the even they aren't set like that and one target falling can take down another, what's the call for the situation presented in the original post?  My argument is 4 shots fired, 4 targets down.  The RO said that the target that went on it's own still had to be "engaged".  Obviously there's confusion about this situation.

 

So I'm looking for clarification on the proper call.

[Lead Monger]

The required number of shots were fired and all the targets are down. Good job, move on. 

If all the targets had fallen before the required number of shots were fired then the shooter would have to shoot where the target was to satisfy the stage instructions.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Clubs wouldn't have this issue often if they set the knockdowns up in such a way that they need some amount of force to be knocked over.

 A mere breeze knocking over a metal target is ridiculous. 

Southern Nevada experienced wind gusts today of 60mph. 

Sometimes it may be more than a mere breeze.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Stage writers could clarify their intent better by adding each shotgun target must be engaged at least once.

 

Simply saying "till down" or targets must be down to count does not express your desire for each target to be engaged.

OR

Place it that statement in your stage conventions.

 

[Barry Sloe]

14 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Stage writers could clarify their intent better by adding each shotgun target must be engaged at least once.

 

 

The second target was engaged, but missed. Subsequently the target fell down when the shooter was engaging another target.

So, all targets were engaged; all targets are down; and the minimum number of rounds (4) have been fired.  That satisfies the stage instructions.

Clean, next shooter.

 

BS

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

 

6 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Stage description states 4+ shotgun shells required. 

 

Stage description states engage the 4 knockdowns until down. 

 

I have to agree with the crowd, 4 shots fired, 4 targets down.  Stage instructions engage 4 knockdowns until down, instructions were met, "Clean", next shooter.

 

Randy

[watab kid]

target down is a hit - i too disagree with the idea that you did not shoot it but it fell doctrine , yet there are clubs that make you shoot the round to get the score - im in for that , time spent and all ........

 

i dont have an issue with taking two shotgun targets with one shot - the setters made it so , and in real life it can be so , just sayin .......

[Randingo]

6 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Here’s one for the Wire. And may need an actual ruling. 

 

Stage description states 4+ shotgun shells required. 

 

Stage description states engage the 4 knockdowns until down. 

 

Shot 1 knocks down a target. 

Shot 2 is a miss

Shot 3 knocks down a target, and another target falls. 

Shot 4 knocks down the last target. 

 

Question: Are stage conventions satisfied as 4 shots were fired and 4 targets are down, OR does the shooter need to shoot where the target that fell on its own was so that all 4 we’re engaged?

 

Any chance Palewolf could chime in?

Not to ruffle feathers, I am new at this and trying to understand.  He engaged the target but missed.  Then it fell on is own.  If this happens on rifle knock downs is it still considered clean.  If it was still standing he would have to reengage or take a miss.

 

- In the event a target fails or is downed, the shooter should “shoot where it was.”

[Doc Shapiro]

34 minutes ago, Randingo said:

Not to ruffle feathers, I am new at this and trying to understand.  He engaged the target but missed.  Then it fell on is own.  If this happens on rifle knock downs is it still considered clean.  If it was still standing he would have to reengage or take a miss.

 

- In the event a target fails or is downed, the shooter should “shoot where it was.”

 

Note that the target that fell on its own was not actually engaged by the shooter.

 

Your last statement is the one that I'm unsure on as 4 shots were fired and 4 targets were down - which met the stage requirements.  Was the shooter required to fire a 5th shot to engage the target that went over on it's own or not?  Hence asking for clarification.

[Randingo]

14 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Note that the target that fell on its own was not actually engaged by the shooter.

The shooter never engaged the target but was give credit for it?  How is that then a clean shoot?  Again, just trying to learn.  Thanks!!!!

 

"Stage description states engage the 4 knockdowns until down"

[Griff]

5 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

That's true.  But in the even they aren't set like that and one target falling can take down another, what's the call for the situation presented in the original post?  My argument is 4 shots fired, 4 targets down.  The RO said that the target that went on it's own still had to be "engaged".  Obviously there's confusion about this situation.

 

So I'm looking for clarification on the proper call.

It USED to be shoot where it was, but... sometime in the '90's it changed.  "...shoot til down" without a round count is interpreted as meaning that number of shots are all that's required if they all fall on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th shots.  If a round count is specified, as in "...4+", it requires at least 4 shots, whether the targets are finally down on the 1st or 18th shot.  If there is a specified order to the targets, as is the case with rifle & pistol target arrays, "shoot where it was" still applies... otherwise a "P" will ensue for shooting the targets out of order.  

 

The stage conventions are satisfied with the targets being down, if the correct number of shots have been fired.  However, stage instructions can be written in such a fashion as to require the targets actually be HIT.  But... that usually leads to the "magic BB" argument... 

[Ramblin Gambler]

44 minutes ago, Randingo said:

The shooter never engaged the target but was give credit for it?  How is that then a clean shoot?  Again, just trying to learn.  Thanks!!!!

 

"Stage description states engage the 4 knockdowns until down"

 

Engaging a target does not mean hitting it.  When he missed that second shot, he was engaging his second target. 

 

I'm not sure why doc said the target that fell wasn't 'engaged'  Maybe he actually took 2 shots at the missed target and target 3 or 4 was the one that fell.  Even in that case, it counts because we don't get into the shooter's intent.  If the stage specified an order for the SG targets (something I think I've seen once), or that they be shot from certain positions (much more common) then he might have needed to take a 5th shot depending on the order the targets fell. 

[Doc Shapiro]

8 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Engaging a target does not mean hitting it.  When he missed that second shot, he was engaging his second target. 

 

I'm not sure why doc said the target that fell wasn't 'engaged'  Maybe he actually took 2 shots at the missed target and target 3 or 4 was the one that fell.  Even in that case, it counts because we don't get into the shooter's intent.  If the stage specified an order for the SG targets (something I think I've seen once), or that they be shot from certain positions (much more common) then he might have needed to take a 5th shot depending on the order the targets fell. 

 

Here, let me try again.

 

Shot 1 on target 1, hit.

Shot 2 on target 2, miss

Shot 3 on target 2, hit - Target 3 falls.

Shot 4 on target 4, hit.

In order to not earn a penalty and unsure on the call, shooter shoots an extra shot where target 3 was.

 

Question, did shooter need to fire that last shot where target 3 was?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

Quote

 

TARGET FAILURE

In the event a target fails or falls to the ground, the Chief Range Officer should instruct the shooter to "shoot where it was." 

This call will never result in a penalty of any kind to the shooter.  This process has been found to be far less confusing, and thereby safer, to the shooter than requiring an alternate target to be engaged, although it is perfectly acceptable for the shooter to engage an alternate target and be scored for hits and misses in the normal manner.  Do not allow the shooter to engage a downed target as this may cause further damage to the target, or worse, may result in dangerous ricochets.

 

RO2 pp.8-9

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Given the additional information re the OP (i.e. that target #3 fell "on its own"...most likely due to the instability of the target setup} this would be a case of "target failure".

[Doc Shapiro]

23 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Given the additional information re the OP (i.e. that target #3 fell "on its own"...most likely due to the instability of the target setup} this would be a case of "target failure".

 

Thanks Palewolf!  For this particular situation, the shooter was required to fire that 5th shot where the target was. 

 

Edge cases always provide for interesting learnings.

[Amarillo Rattler]

I pattern SG loads after a real eye opener when the 1 1/8 oz lead over lubed felt wads loads would not knock any KD down.

At 12 yds, the center donut was 8-10” in diameter and no pellets.

That load would down  KDs near the intended KD, but not the intended KD.

 

Current loads put 60% on  a 9” plate at 12 yds. 

KDs in the vicinity catch some lead, and sometimes fall.

 

Local clubs go with 4 shots for 4 KDs, and shoot where the fallen rifle/pistol/sg target was for required round count

 

Amarillo Rattler

 

 

[Pat Riot]

16 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Southern Nevada experienced wind gusts today of 60mph. 

Sometimes it may be more than a mere breeze.

You were shooting in 60mph winds?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

You were shooting in 60mph winds?

In Red Rock Canyon while we shot on Sunday - We only had gusts of 40 mph.

They got faster later in the day.

Other areas were a little harder hit - 70mph

 

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/news/wind-warning-advisory-for-southern-nevada/462348559

[Sedalia Dave]

12 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Here, let me try again.

 

Shot 1 on target 1, hit.

Shot 2 on target 2, miss

Shot 3 on target 2, hit - Target 3 falls.

Shot 4 on target 4, hit.

In order to not earn a penalty and unsure on the call, shooter shoots an extra shot where target 3 was.

 

Question, did shooter need to fire that last shot where target 3 was?

 

How do you know that the second shot was intended for target 2? Not everyone shoots the targets in a sweep.

[Doc Shapiro]

13 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

How do you know that the second shot was intended for target 2? Not everyone shoots the targets in a sweep.

 

Because I was the shooter! 

[watab kid]

if they are down - they are down , ive seen some weird occurances and they get credit for what is down - i have seen where the fall down requires a round expended but ive also seen the gimmie 

[Wyatt]

22 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Here, let me try again.

 

Shot 1 on target 1, hit.

Shot 2 on target 2, miss

Shot 3 on target 2, hit - Target 3 falls.

Shot 4 on target 4, hit.

In order to not earn a penalty and unsure on the call, shooter shoots an extra shot where target 3 was.

 

Question, did shooter need to fire that last shot where target 3 was?

 

21 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Given the additional information re the OP (i.e. that target #3 fell "on its own"...most likely due to the instability of the target setup} this would be a case of "target failure".

 

21 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Thanks Palewolf!  For this particular situation, the shooter was required to fire that 5th shot where the target was. 

 

Edge cases always provide for interesting learnings.

 

If the shooter (Doc) did not fire a 5th shot, in the area of target 3, the proper call would be 1 miss?

 

As a TO or spotter that is gonna be a hard sell...............with someone being called a hard ass, if not worse!

[Wyatt]

In a more common situation a shotgun target falls, for whatever reason, prior to the shooter engaging the targets. The shooter expends 4 shots to take down the 3 standing targets. A 5th shot is required in the area of the downed target to avoid a miss?

[Cowboy Junky]

36 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

In a more common situation a shotgun target falls, for whatever reason, prior to the shooter engaging the targets. The shooter expends 4 shots to take down the 3 standing targets. A 5th shot is required in the area of the downed target to avoid a miss?

What I have seen over and over around here is if the stage call for 4 shotgun then 4 shotgun MUST be fired. If the Santa Anna winds blow 3 of em' down after you start and you miss the only one standing 3 times but get it on the 4th you are still good. You fired 4 the stage called for 4 and all the targets are down.

Are people in that situation making them fire 7 since they missed the one target 3 times? 6 if they missed it 2 times etc? I hope we are right.......I sure think so.........when you start looking at "intent" that's a slippery slope. 

Sometimes it's better to lucky than good. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

34 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

In a more common situation a shotgun target falls, for whatever reason, prior to the shooter engaging the targets. The shooter expends 4 shots to take down the 3 standing targets. A 5th shot is required in the area of the downed target to avoid a miss?

Target failure, shoot where it was. Only 4 shots required providing you hit the other 3.

 

IMHO

Randy