WTC

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

30 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB Page 22

 

Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for disqualification from the stage, and for repeated offenses, from the match.

 

IMHO this is NOT a sweeping penalty.  The shooter didn't actively sweep anyone, however he did fail to maintain a safe muzzle direction.  Again IMHO there is no penalty for sweeping yourself with any weapon so I disagree with those who want to make that call.

 

I think it's a SDQ for failure to manage safe muzzle direction.

Excellent way to reason on this one!  I like this, thanks Capt!.

 

Failure to maintain safe muzzle direction.  SDQ is result on the first time.

 

(Thinking of this as sweeping just gets you confused.  It's really a muzzle direction management concern, which is very much the same as the 170 degree concern)

 

 Good luck, GJ

[Blackey Cole]

I respect joe and bills experience and knowledge and believe both to be correct but I'm waiting to see what the wtc god, pwb, says

[Captain Bill Burt]

Thank you Joe!

[Cowboy Junky]

I'm with Capt B Burt. It's written in the stage that you go down range. The shooter has the responsibility not to impede that. If you point a gun in the direction you are getting ready to move.....that's not safe.

 

Staging it in the wrong position and staging in an unsafe position to the shooter, TO or spotter's that are busy doing other things and hoping they don't go in front of the muzzle (when they could go there if it was correctly staged) is a totally different thing. 

 

I think the rules will probably lean towards an SDQ when it comes to live ammo and action sports you probably error towards safety.

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I'd go with a safety for staging improperly...then another safety for going in front of it,,,,,  and TOs can't always be perfect,,,

 

but then again I'm most likely wrong

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

8 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

I'd go with a safety for staging improperly...then another safety for going in front of it,,,,,  and TOs can't always be perfect,,,

 

but then again I'm most likely wrong

 

What kind of "safety"??

It's a P for not following the staging instructions. It remains a P if no one crosses in front of the muzzle.

It's a SDQ for "unsafe firearm handling" if someone walks in front of a downrange-pointing muzzle as a result that they (the shooter) left in that condition.

The "sweeping" regs are irrelevant in this case.

 

That was the ruling for the two related incidents at EoT a couple years ago...nothing has changed since then.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

PW,

Not to be "nitpicky" but I'm sure we'd all like this put to bed, so if you could please clarify 2 issues.

A) does "in front of" mean forward of the muzzle  or does it mean directly in line with muzzle?

does (A) include the shooter? 

THANK YOU for your patience!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I predict at least 20 "what ifs" to follow.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

22 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

PW,

Not to be "nitpicky" but I'm sure we'd all like this put to bed, so if you could please clarify 2 issues.

A) does "in front of" mean forward of the muzzle  or does it mean directly in line with muzzle?

Directly in line...muzzle pointing AT someone...that is NOT considered "sweeping" in the case of an improperly staged/restaged stationary firearm.

does (A) include the shooter? 

YES.

THANK YOU for your patience!

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Now we finally have a SDQ that can be assessed to the shooter based on the actions of another person. Cool. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 minute ago, Smokestack said:

Now we finally have a SDQ that can be assessed to the shooter based on the actions of another person. Cool. 

I take that back. With the recent addition of a TO catching a gun which may be falling also earning the shooter a DQ, I guess we actually have two now. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

4 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Now we finally have a SDQ that can be assessed to the shooter based on the actions of another person. Cool. 

 

The initial action was the shooter's "unsafe firearm handling" in improperly restaging an uncleared firearm contrary to the stage instructions.

Same applies to a long gun restaged in a careless manner that "slips & falls" or is in continuous motion...assuming that there is a :

Quote

4. A safe and sturdy place should be provided at each stage to position the shooter’s firearms and is mandatory to use.  Whether or not they are available, it is the shooter’s responsibility to take reasonable care in putting down the firearm.  If the firearm falls, the Range Officer shall make the determination of fault: either Prop Failure or Safety Violation as appropriate.

RO1 V.21.6 p.23

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

6 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

I take that back. With the recent addition of a TO catching a gun which may be falling also earning the shooter a DQ, I guess we actually have two now. 

no, that is actually a good one,,, I've caught two, one before the clarification and the other after.

 

first one let the shooter go on to win at eot in class,, and the other kept the rifle from hitting the floor sight first...

 

and the above was earned when he went in front of it...

[Marauder SASS #13056]

While we are blaming others, let's blame the stage designer and set up crew.

 

How they set up the stage will increase or decrease the possibility and probability of someone walking in front of an improperly placed gun.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

While we are blaming others, let's blame the stage designer and set up crew.

 

How they set up the stage will increase or decrease the possibility and probability of someone walking in front of an improperly placed gun.

 

Quote

4. A safe and sturdy place should be provided at each stage to position the shooter’s firearms and is mandatory to use. 

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

The shooter owned this. The stage instructions were clear. Many a stage has been written that requires staging a long gun somewhere safe prior to the shooter, and whomever to go down range.

No ones fault other than the shooter.

 

Ike

[Gawd Awful]

4 hours ago, Smokestack said:

Even if you were right about that, and I don't believe you are, can you show me in the rule book under stage disqualifications where not staging a gun "safely" is listed? 

 

Well if it wasn't "staged safely" that sounds like "unsafe gun handling" 

 

the definition of unsafe would be "not doing something in a safe manner"

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

20 minutes ago, Gawd Awful said:

 

Well if it wasn't "staged safely" that sounds like "unsafe gun handling" 

 

the definition of unsafe would be "not doing something in a safe manner"

Unless it wasn't staged at all. A duelist could have taken it with them and held it while shooting the pistols. Still a DQ or just a P? 

[Yusta B.]

That would be a "P" for failure to follow instructions - if he maintained safe control or safely staged it somewhere else for the rest if the stage..

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

34 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Unless it wasn't staged at all. A duelist could have taken it with them and held it while shooting the pistols. Still a DQ or just a P? 

 

15 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

That would be a "P" for failure to follow instructions - if he maintained safe control or safely staged it somewhere else for the rest if the stage..

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

The key word here is "Staged improperly".

A PROPERLY staged gun that someone walks in front of is and should be a No Call.

 

(Brass pickers can be somewhat oblivious to the muzzles of guns staged properly on tables once a shooter moves downrange)

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

8 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

The key word here is "Staged improperly".

A PROPERLY staged gun that someone walks in front of is and should be a No Call.

 

(Brass pickers can be somewhat oblivious to the muzzles of guns staged properly on tables once a shooter moves downrange)

 

 

and spotters....

 

[Null N. Void]

Only give the shooter one spot to stage the long gun that is safe.  If there are two spots, one safe, one unsafe, there will be shooters who pick the first one they see and put the long gun there and proceed onward.  If it's the unsafe position, we have this thread.  

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

Although PWB already answered this, I agree with Smokestack , the shooter did not follow stage instructions by not placing rifle in rack so I can see the  P, a gun can't sweep anybody tell somebody touches it ,what bothers me is someone will pick up gun while folks are down range , and I think now that would give the person touching or picking up gun the SDQ which it should be 

 

if the TO thought the rifle was staged unsafely then don't go in front of it , call the shooter back

 

Im not sure why in stage design there would be a table near the rack if that was the case, that would be poor stage design

 

AO

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

57 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw SASS#71385 said:

Although PWB already answered this, I agree with Smokestack , the shooter did not follow stage instructions by not placing rifle in rack so I can see the  P, a gun can't sweep anybody tell somebody touches it ,what bothers me is someone will pick up gun while folks are down range , and I think now that would give the person touching or picking up gun the SDQ which it should be.

 

Im not sure why in stage design there would be a table near the rack if that was the case

 

AO

 

That is an entirely different situation. 

If someone picks up a firearm and sweeps someone else with it under ANY circumstances, the call is a Disqualification. 

(unless the person "swept" is within the shooter's 170 during stage engagement).

In the OP the SDQ is for "unsafe firearm handling" ... not for "sweeping".

 

 

 

[Gawd Awful]

10 hours ago, Smokestack said:

Unless it wasn't staged at all. A duelist could have taken it with them and held it while shooting the pistols. Still a DQ or just a P? 

 

 

First its a "p" for failing to follow stage descriptions.

 

if you move down range holding the rifle, and keep it pointed down range while shooting your pistol, then you stop at the "p"

 

however, if when you are done shooting the pistol, you holster, then turn around and sweep some one, it's a SDQ

 

if you point the muzzle straight up instead of slightly down range, it's a sdq for breaking the 170

 

if you do EVERYTHING else right, and the RO walks around in front of you, and ends up having the muzzle pointed at them, it's a SDQ (the rifle wouldn't be there if you'd followed directions of the stage, so it is directly your fault the rifle was there to be pointed at the RO)

 

 

[Shooting Bull]

56 minutes ago, Gawd Awful said:

 

 

First its a "p" for failing to follow stage descriptions.

 

if you move down range holding the rifle, and keep it pointed down range while shooting your pistol, then you stop at the "p"

 

however, if when you are done shooting the pistol, you holster, then turn around and sweep some one, it's a SDQ

 

if you point the muzzle straight up instead of slightly down range, it's a sdq for breaking the 170

 

if you do EVERYTHING else right, and the RO walks around in front of you, and ends up having the muzzle pointed at them, it's a SDQ (the rifle wouldn't be there if you'd followed directions of the stage, so it is directly your fault the rifle was there to be pointed at the RO)

 

 

 

There would be a very good chance I'd knock that RO into next week. Yeah okay, I had a brain fart and earned myself a P.  But through their stupidity I get a SDQ?  He and I would have some problems.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

As far as OP, I think this could be a inconsistent call, just a P or a SDQ depends on posse

 

This could of been easily handled in stage design, a barrier on table & no vertical rack or a rack that held both rifle & shotgun

or 

TO stopped shooter when they staged rifle and picked up SG

 

If the situation was that unsafe, TO should of never went down range with shooter that he or she would of let the muzzle of rifle be pointed at them (no active sweeping since no one is touching rifle) it's kind of situation for TO here because now shooter has another gun in hand and if already down range calling them back could present a 170 violation , sometimes " helping" can lead to more problems

In this situation I would not be bothered going down range with shooter if it were not for 2 things

1) open action went away combined with 2) 

2) people think that they need to move a gun that is pointed down range with people in front of it, when in reality the gun is not going to hurt anybody unless someone touches it , (probably biggest pet peeve of mine) 

 

I don't want to see this thread get to crazy because we could end up with no down range movement that would really suck as its a lot of fun.

 

As a match director At shooters meeting I will some times remind folks (especially with down range movement) do not touch guns when people are down range which everybody should no anyway but it's a good reminder also that it can get them a SDQ

 

AO

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I'm certainly OK with the call being a SDQ, but the basis for that call being dependent on the actions of someone other than the shooter bothers me.  

 

Not to be argumentative, but if the shooter's action is unsafe (in this instance it certainly appears to be) why should the resulting penalty vary depending upon what someone other than the shooter does?  Didn't we just change the rules with respect to dropped guns so that shooters wouldn't get different penalties depending upon how quick their TO is?

 

It seems to me the muzzle direction penalty leads to a more uniform outcome, the only question then is when does the penalty apply.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm certainly OK with the call being a SDQ, but the basis for that call being dependent on the actions of someone other than the shooter bothers me.  

 

Not to be argumentative, but if the shooter's action is unsafe (in this instance it certainly appears to be) why should the resulting penalty vary depending upon what someone other than the shooter does?  Didn't we just change the rules with respect to dropped guns so that shooters wouldn't get different penalties depending upon how quick their TO is?

 

It seems to me the muzzle direction penalty leads to a more uniform outcome, the only question then is when does the penalty apply.

Got the same concerns, CBB.  

 

With the info presented above, we have to make the call either a P or a SDQ, depending upon where someone other than the shooter moved to.  SDQ only if someone (while out of the vision of the spotters or the TO), got directly in front of the muzzle.  Those folks who can call the penalty won't have eyes in the back of their heads, and will be watching targets and the shooter, not the gun back on a shelf or table.

 

We need this situation to be simple, just like the 170 call is simple.  The 170 cone "protects an area" - everything on the stage that is not in the 170 cone.    This penalty would be much easier to enforce if "staging for down range movement" protects all of the down range area that personnel will possibly be moving through while the stage is being shot.

 

Then the call is simple - did shooter safely stage guns for safe movement of ANY person down range?  Yes => no call.  No => SDQ    The TO will be REAL helpful to ensure the shooter gets the gun staged safely, I would guess.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

17 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

I assume you are talking about loading and unloading tables that are on the firing line.   If you are leaving guns on those tables while folks are down range working on stuff, I'd say yes, you are violating the muzzles in safe direction rules!  Unless your club has decided that "stepping away" from the tables is sufficient.  The rule book does not really cover this situation nor provide a penalty.

 

Now, tables where muzzles point into berm rather than down range -  safety is provided by the berm.  Like some tables at WR and all tables at EOT.    For those, guns are safely pointed all the time when properly laid on tables.

 

 

 

Yes I admit to my inexperience.  I've shot at 3 locations total, and only 2 stages (both of which were rarely shot) had either LT or ULT that was not on the firing line.  So yeah, I'm only thinking of when the tables are on the firing line. 

 

It's not my club that has decided stepping away is enough, but SASS did.  Read the rulebook where it talks about the flag system.  RO1 Pg 15.  I don't find anything else about down ranges or fixing targets in the manuals. 

 

==========

"3. “Yellow Flag.” On ranges where multiple stages are run in parallel using a common firing line with no separating berms, it is sometimes necessary to go down range to repair broken or
malfunctioning targets. Once the "Yellow Flag" command has been given, each stage affected will allow any shooter already engaged in that stage to complete the course of fire. As shooting finishes on each stage, all in-use guns are laid down at the loading and/or
unloading tables and the competitors will "stand back." Once the firearms are secure, each
stage will signal compliance by showing its own ―Yellow Flag.‖ Once all affected stages are
displaying their ―Yellow Flag,‖ the initiating Range Officer may advance down range. When the offending targets have been fixed and the Range Officer is behind the firing line, an “All Clear" command will be given, the Yellow Flags withdrawn, and normal range operations can resume.
==========

 

Same goes for any outdoor range I've ever been to. During a cease fire, they want rifles in the rack behind the firing line, but pistols can be unloaded pointed downrange because everyone must step away from the firing line.  

 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

I concur it earns a "P" but I think all of us should be considering our stage designs and instructions to prevent this problem from arising.

In the case described in post #1, would it not have been better to stage the shotgun forward of the rifle position, then bring the empty rifle to the shotgun position and stage the rifle there?

[Ramblin Gambler]

Strictly speaking, literally anything is better than having a gun pointed at people.  Beyond that, there's lots of good ways to handle it and not a single one is always the best way. 

[COLORADO JACKSON]

16 hours ago, Smokestack said:

Now we finally have a SDQ that can be assessed to the shooter based on the actions of another person. Cool. 

I guess I am confused, the DQ that is the proper call was given based on the shooters actions (staging rifle incorrectly), no one else other than the shooter touched the rifle, when the TO walked in front of the muzzle of the improperly staged rifle, while following the shooter downrange, whos to blame? Whoever staged the rifle with the muzzle in an unsafe direction, am I missing something, this seems pretty clear to me. I do believe TO should have been aware of this immediately, and had the shooter correct it before going down range but I was not there to know the circumstances.

P.S. Smokestack....I still love you man....

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

You all might remember a discussion awhile back on a shooter who got SDQ or a MDQ I forget . Anyway he had his pistols out and was moving to another location. He swept the spotters even though his pistols were not breaking the 170. How? The spotters were ahead of his line of movement, but not ahead of the line of fire! Reasoning was the shooter is responsible for safe gun handling even if someone else does something stupid. Since then as a TO I check to make sure no one is in the line of movement on a stage other than the shooter.

Ike