Wyatt Hurts SASS#72737 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Rifle and shot gun are staged at the same position. Shooter is to shoot the rifle string then restage the rifle vertically and move forward with the shotgun. The shooter instead restages the rifle horizontally and walks in front of the muzzle in the act of completing the stage. What is the call? What is the call if the TO walks in front of that improperly staged rifle? Is there a difference if it is the shooter or the TO who walk in front of said muzzle? Wyatt Hurts 72737 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 The call is STOP! And can and should be made by anyone on the posse to stop someone from moving into an unsafe position. As to a penalty I would take a guess and say SDQ (maybe falls under unsafe gun handling?) though I don't have chapter and verse to back that up, and don't have time to look it up at the moment. Could be argued that a P is also earned for failure to follow stage directions, but after the DQ it doesn't really matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 It would be a procedural. No penalty for sweeping yourself and if another person moves down range in front of a gun you are not handling, that is on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Quote Sweeping anyone with an unloaded firearm - SDQ Restaging the gun so that the muzzle of an empty long gun sweeps any person (or that person can reasonably get in front of the muzzle) during the execution of the stage should garner an SDQ. IMHO, It really doesn't matter when a shooter does not restage per special instructions that have been given whether someone actually DOES get in front of the muzzle. The instructions are there so as to prevent anyone from having to WORRY about getting in front of a muzzle of a fired long gun. At the same time, we have a long standing principal (that is not clear in the rule books), that a shooter does not ever cause a penalty to be awarded for "sweeping their own self". SO, my call would be it doesn't matter if it was the shooter or the TO or other range officer (spotter) who got in front of (could have gotten in front of) a badly staged long gun, it's the placement of the firearm that is wrong because it was staged such that it was possible during the rest of the stage to sweep anyone trying to move down range. A SDQ has been the call at all the major matches (EOT, WR) I've been at where down-range movement was to be carried out after a "vertical restaging" requirement, but the shooter failed to do so. Shooter would have until next gun was fired or someone actually got swept to fix the problem. Usually the TO will be yelling his head off or even putting a hand on shooter's shoulder to get his attention to restage the gun vertically! Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 SDQ, sweeping yourself only applies to pistols being taken out or holstered. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 SDQ, unsafe gun handling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 To those saying SDQ, if the stage instructions had been to point it into the berm and a inattentive brass picket wandered in front of it, would you still DQ the shooter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 23 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: sweeping yourself only applies to pistols being taken out or holstered. No, the act of vertically staging long guns where the butt will be at floor level, often results in an empty rifle or shotgun muzzle pointed toward the head of the shooter. That vertical restaging sloppiness never ends up with a SDQ being called. So, shooter does not sweep himself even if sloppy with long gun handling, either. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, Smokestack said: To those saying SDQ, if the stage instructions had been to point it into the berm and a inattentive brass picket wandered in front of it, would you still DQ the shooter? Not a chance. Shooter followed instructions exactly as the stage designer wanted. A VERY stern warning to brass picker or target setter would be in order, however! Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Not a chance. Shooter followed instructions exactly as the stage designer wanted. A VERY stern warning to brass picker or target setter would be in order, however! Good luck, GJ And not following stage instructions is a procedural. There is no penalty for sweeping yourself and the TO, who's job it is to pay attention to things like how a gun is staged, should not have put Themselves in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, Jefro, SASS#69420 said: Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, So, you would say that it applied as soon as it left the shooters hand and could not be corrected before the TO wandered in front of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, Smokestack said: So, you would say that it applied as soon as it left the shooters hand and could not be corrected before the TO wandered in front of it? Nope, I was just quoting the whole sentence. Should be able to fix it prior to stepping in front of it, no one has been swept yet 3. Major safety infractions will result in the shooter’s Disqualification from the Stage or Match. ―Major‖ infractions include: a dropped firearm, a discharge that is unsafe or a discharge that impacts less than ten feet from the shooter, violation of the 170 safety rule, ―sweeping‖ any person with the muzzle of a firearm, and similar acts that have high potential for personal injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said: Nope, I was just quoting the whole sentence. Should be able to fix it prior to stepping in front of it, no one has been swept yet 3. Major safety infractions will result in the shooter’s Disqualification from the Stage or Match. ―Major‖ infractions include: a dropped firearm, a discharge that is unsafe or a discharge that impacts less than ten feet from the shooter, violation of the 170 safety rule, ―sweeping‖ any person with the muzzle of a firearm, and similar acts that have high potential for personal injury. Then the penalty is applied to the shooter, solely based on the actions of the TO. And up until the TO made that mistake, the shooter could have repositioned the gun without penalty. Interesting concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 It's the SHOOTER's responsibility to get that empty long gun staged properly. If he does not or cannot (because he's already charged off down range), he earns the penalty. REGARDLESS of what the TO does - the TO only has the chance to spot the improper staging and get shooter to correct it, or to refuse to go down range with the shooter. For purposes of keeping folks safe, the SDQ call should be made immediately if a spotter going down range gets in front of the muzzle. Stop the stage right there. If TO finds he has gotten in front of the muzzle, SDQ immediately. If no one sees that the gun was staged improperly, and shooter completed the stage (with one or more officers down range of the muzzle), then the SDQ gets called as the TO comes back to the long gun and sees it was staged highly unsafely. It's really neither hard to call it that way nor out of our standard method of calling penalties. As stated, I've seen it handled that way at SEVERAL EOTs and WRs. Vertical staging is closely related to staging that does not break the 170 degree cone. It does not take a person getting in front of a sideways staged long gun for the 170 to be broken and an SDQ awarded. Neither should it take "muzzle exposure" of a person by an improperly restaged (not veritical) gun when the vertical staging is being REQUIRED for protection of safety of everyone going down range. The TO has got way too much going on to have to also try to "keep out of the way" of an incorrectly staged long gun when going down range (but he should be watching it as gun is restaged and helping the shooter to achieve the best possible outcomes!). Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 I find it difficult to understand how what the stage instructions say to do with a rifle somehow affects whether or not a person walking in front of a gun is unsafe. It either is or it isn't. but here we have people arguing that it should be a SDQ or a no call based on the stage instructions. I just can't follow that logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Hurts SASS#72737 Posted July 25, 2017 Author Share Posted July 25, 2017 Not to put the TO in a bad light but the TO went with the shooter down range and did not see the rifle was staged horizontally until the completion of the stage. So then, what is the penalty? SDQ? a P? Does it matter if only the shooter went in front of the muzzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 The rules don't attempt to try to prevent people other than the shooter walking in front of muzzles. The rules focus on what the SHOOTER has to do to achieve the safest possible environment for other persons to be close to the shooter as he is going through a stage. So the rules say what is not permitted by the shooter while the shooter is * actively shooting, * carrying, * staging and restaging, * drawing and holstering, and * loading and unloading guns so that muzzles are in a safe direction. We have made it 100% the shooter's responsibility. Just like NRA gun safety rules make it the shooter's responsibility. Part of the goal by doing that is to prevent folks from ever being in front of a muzzle - regardless of whether those spectators or posse members or range officers are moving or standing still. If they are up range of the firing line, they are safe. If the firing line has "moved down range" because the shooter has moved down range, folks up range of that NEW firing line will still be safe with vertical staging that has been required, or even specific horizontal staging instructions ("into the berm"). Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: The rules don't attempt to try to prevent people other than the shooter walking in front of muzzles. The rules focus on what the SHOOTER has to do to achieve the safest possible environment for other persons to be close to the shooter as he is going through a stage. So the rules say what is not permitted by the shooter while the shooter is * actively shooting, * carrying, * staging and restaging, * drawing and holstering, and * loading and unloading guns so that muzzles are in a safe direction. We have made it 100% the shooter's responsibility. Just like NRA gun safety rules make it the shooter's responsibility. Part of the goal by doing that is to prevent folks from ever being in front of a muzzle - regardless of whether those spectators or posse members or range officers are moving or standing still. If they are up range of the firing line, they are safe. If the firing line has "moved down range" because the shooter has moved down range, folks up range of that NEW firing line will still be safe with vertical staging that has been required, or even specific horizontal staging instructions ("into the berm"). Good luck, GJ So, did it become unsafe the moment it left the shooters hand pointed the wrong direction, or the moment the TO wandered in front of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Smokestack, are you trying to say it is the TO's fault that the shooter did not follow instructions and staged the gun in an unsafe manner? The shooter obviously placed the gun so that when the people moved forward, they would be in an unsafe place. From what I read, the shooter has the opportunity to correct it before anyone moves forward. Once they move forward, even if not directly in front of the gun, the penalty is awarded. Some may want to give the penalty as soon as the gun left their hand, but I would think it would be like the old open action, you can correct before the next gun - or in this case before going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Quote So, did it become unsafe the moment it left the shooters hand pointed the wrong direction, or the moment the TO wandered in front of it? It was unsafe as soon as shooter put it down horizontally. It was uncorrectable by shooter (thus subject to a SQD penalty) when he lost his chance to correct the unsafe condition. What causes him to loose the chance to correct it? * Firing next gun * Muzzle swept someone other than shooter while folks were moving down range (or perhaps when FIRST person starts going down range, as Marauder states) (You can't "un-sweep" that person that walked in front of the gun, or "back up" the spotter or TO from having gone down range). Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 25 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said: Smokestack, are you trying to say it is the TO's fault that the shooter did not follow instructions and staged the gun in an unsafe manner? The shooter obviously placed the gun so that when the people moved forward, they would be in an unsafe place. From what I read, the shooter has the opportunity to correct it before anyone moves forward. Once they move forward, even if not directly in front of the gun, the penalty is awarded. Some may want to give the penalty as soon as the gun left their hand, but I would think it would be like the old open action, you can correct before the next gun - or in this case before going forward. Not a thing all, but in my opinion, unless the SHOOTER, swept the TO with the gun and if the 170° cone was not broken, then the gun was not staged unsafely. It was staged incorrectly and would definitely warrant a procedural penalty. The unsafe situation happened when a person ended up in front of the gun. This in my opinion was a result of the movement made by the TO and should not warrant a penalty for the shooter, beyond the P already earned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 It has already been decided that a holstered loaded pistol can be pointed at whomever you like without penalty. Why then would an empty long gun lying on a table with nobody touching it be treated any differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Kid Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 IMHO, if the stage instructions where written to keep the gun safe, and the shooter/TO/counter has moved beyond the point of correction it is a safety violation, not a procedural. If the rifle was re-staged in a manor that was safe perhaps then a P, but once someone was looking down the business end of the rifle the SDQ was earned. Side note, TO needs a "time out" for not being in the game mentally and preventing the problem, although it is ultimately the shooters responsibility. WK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 If you went to a shooting range and asked 100 people, " If I lay a gun down pointed downrange, and after I walk away, you walk in front of it, have I swept you?", how many folks you think would answer yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 If the gun is stationary, how can it be a sweep of anything? Only seems like a P to me if it's not corrected before the next gun is fired. But I can count on 1 hand the number if times I've done a stage with downrange movement. Can't wait to see the official response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Smokestack said: Not a thing all, but in my opinion, unless the SHOOTER, swept the TO with the gun and if the 170° cone was not broken, then the gun was not staged unsafely. It was staged incorrectly and would definitely warrant a procedural penalty. The unsafe situation happened when a person ended up in front of the gun. This in my opinion was a result of the movement made by the TO and should not warrant a penalty for the shooter, beyond the P already earned. The only way the long gun could be staged safely during that stage would be to follow the stage instructions. Since the shooter did NOT follow the instructions, he didn't stage the gun safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: The only way the long gun could be staged safely during that stage would be to follow the stage instructions. Since the shooter did NOT follow the instructions, he didn't stage the gun safely. Even if you were right about that, and I don't believe you are, can you show me in the rule book under stage disqualifications where not staging a gun "safely" is listed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 When you have to go downrange to fix a target, what do the people at the loading and unloading table do with their guns? The leave them on the table pointed downrange and step away. Now, I always angle mine off to the side, but that's not a requirement. The people who go downrange wind up having guns (some loaded) pointed at them most of the time. So should people be getting DQd for leaving guns flat on a table during a downrange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said: When you have to go downrange to fix a target, what do the people at the loading and unloading table do with their guns? The leave them on the table pointed downrange and step away. Now, I always angle mine off to the side, but that's not a requirement. The people who go downrange wind up having guns (some loaded) pointed at them most of the time. So should people be getting DQd for leaving guns flat on a table during a downrange? I assume you are talking about loading and unloading tables that are on the firing line. If you are leaving guns on those tables while folks are down range working on stuff, I'd say yes, you are violating the muzzles in safe direction rules! Unless your club has decided that "stepping away" from the tables is sufficient. The rule book does not really cover this situation nor provide a penalty. Now, tables where muzzles point into berm rather than down range - safety is provided by the berm. Like some tables at WR and all tables at EOT. For those, guns are safely pointed all the time when properly laid on tables. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null N. Void Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 This may be a stage design issue. When I write stages where downrange movement is required after shooting a long gun, the only place to stage the long gun is a safe place. It could be a rack where there is no way to put it down incorrectly. It could be a table where there is no further downrange movement. I don't like having a table at the point that long gun is shot from. It's a natural invitation to put the long gun down on it. I don't like calling the shooter back to get his long gun. A change in stage design makes it obvious that the gun has to go with you to a spot to be safely put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Now having forgot about a shooter staging a long gun vertically can't be called for sweeping themselves, the minute the shooter released control of the rifle and stepped in front of it is a SDQ. Otherwise hanging a right turn, I'm at the LT or ULT and I drop something, I step around in front of the table and guns, to pick it up, I'm the shooter I can't sweep myself so no call? Noodle that one! The shooter stepped in front of a gun's muzzle, his own, he no longer is in control of the gun, so SDQ? Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 At Winter Range to avoid staging guns vertically they screw a red 2X4 to the table top, long gun must be staged along the 2X4 which points the muzzle towards the berm. Works fro them and the shooter sees the red 2X4, or at least should. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 I'm with smokestack on this one. What if he staged it horizontally. Moved forward but the barrel was a in a way that it didnt sweep anyone. Does the shooter still get a dq? Or is it just a p? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 SHB Page 22 Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for disqualification from the stage, and for repeated offenses, from the match. IMHO this is NOT a sweeping penalty. The shooter didn't actively sweep anyone, however he did fail to maintain a safe muzzle direction. Again IMHO there is no penalty for sweeping yourself with any weapon so I disagree with those who want to make that call. I think it's a SDQ for failure to manage safe muzzle direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.