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Spirit of the Game Experiences


wyliefoxEsquire

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At my last shoot I managed to forget the sequence of 3 - 3 - 3 - 1 (on three targets) and started off 2 - 1 - then opps I realized I just earned a "p". Keeping with my rifle rhythm I finished 2 - 3 - 3 - 2 no misses

 

I have two questions

 

A) Would you call for a Spirit of the Game if I did 2 - 8

 

B) Without names, what are some example of Spirit of the Game that you have seen?

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Spirit oh the game only goes to actions to gain a competitive advantage instead of following the stage instructions. I was once told by a past wild bunch member that sog were not for shooting discrepancies but for non shooting actions or non actions such as it says to rope the post prior to engaging the revolver targets. A shooter grow he rope at the post then starts shooting the rope didn't go around the post and the shooter didn't try for it to go around the post.

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RO-I, page 27 explains a Failure to Engage as an intentional non-shooting infraction, like not trying to rope a steer, and a Spirit of the Game, as an intentional shooting infraction, like willfully shooting out of procedure or using sub-power ammo. Both have a 30-second stage penalty, and two infractions in one match is a MDQ.

Shooting a 2-8 sounds like an intentional shooting procedure infraction to me.

But what do I know?

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Spirit of the Game (intentional shooting infraction) would be called if it really appeared intentional (and that's often hard to discern), and the shooter was trying to gain a competitive advantage (and that too is usually hard to tell).

 

SOG has been called when the shooter himself afterwards says something like: " Well, I screwed that up early in the string, so I just dumped on the second target instead of trying to finish the sequence."

 

SOG has been called when a shooter asks if a sequence that he wants to shoot would be legal, and upon being given a NO answer to that, goes ahead and shoots it anyway, and it seems to be faster to the TO or spotters to have done that. By asking about a particular "wrong way," and then intentionally shooting it in that wrong order, he is usually deemed to have tried to gain an advantage intentionally.

 

But it's not normal to go handing out SOGs for a simple brain-dead messed up target order. We all usually realize that once a shooter blows the sequence, his brain may not remember how to recover and finish the rest of the sequence.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Yes, and I have awarded a SOG for that very reason. You are trying to gain a competitive edge, making up time for the P, and not following stage instructions. I awarded a P and a SOG.

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When I got mine I thought it came with a trophy.

 

I screwed up with the shotgun so bad I just wanted the stage to be over so I did a 10 round dump with the rifle. I came in last on that stage so the extra 30 second penalty didn't hurt my score.

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I must have confused the pentaly but I don't recall the failure to engage pentaly when did it come about please?

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I got one once after a total train wreck due to "cranial flatulence". I had messed up the sequence so badly and then had stopped to try to figure it out that I just dumped my remaining rounds. My time was already double one of my normal stages and I'm a middle of the pack shooter. Most of the posse was just chuckling about my demise, but some "goody two shoes" insisted that I received a spirit of the game.

 

I'm still upset about that one. I don't think I deserved that penalty and I made sure that I never was in a posse with her again.

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In my 5+ years of SASS there's never been a SOG handed out at any match I've participated in. To my knowledge none of the four metro Atlanta area clubs has had one during that period.

Yep CBB, I agree with that. However I know we've call several SIG (spirit in the game) on folks. Ya know, those folks (myself included) who just screw up a stage so bad it's just funny and then they laugh all the way through to the end of shooting the stage even making snide remarks about their own performance and have a smile a mile wide when carrying their guns all the way to the unloading table. :D:D:D

 

Kajun

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I'm curious: if someone legitimately forgets a particular shooting sequence, how can they earn a SOG for shooting any sequence?

 

The shooter has already earned theirowndangself a 'P' so where would the 'competitive advantage' be determined?

 

 

..........Widder

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I'm curious: if someone legitimately forgets a particular shooting sequence, how can they earn a SOG for shooting any sequence?

 

The shooter has already earned theirowndangself a 'P' so where would the 'competitive advantage' be determined?

 

 

..........Widder

+1

Once the shooter forgot the sequence and messed up, its all off the tracks anyway...why would anyone care what target he dumps on as long as its for the correct gun (rifle on a rifle target, etc.), shooter has still earned that lovely P, the sequence is blown to heck already! The only person I ever knew that tried to award SOG's for that, got to where nobody ever showed up to his matches :-)

 

BD

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I'm curious: if someone legitimately forgets a particular shooting sequence, how can they earn a SOG for shooting any sequence?

 

The shooter has already earned theirowndangself a 'P' so where would the 'competitive advantage' be determined?

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

As posted earlier, only when the shooter starts bragging about how they shortcut the last few shots "to make up for the P" would I consider a SOG. Then you can see intent instead of "brain fart."

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Perhaps not the only reason for SOG, but as I have seen, about the only one that does not put TO or Posse Marshal into the unenviable position of trying to divine the shooter's intent! I hate rules that require us to try to figure out:

* Willfully

* Intent

and other things that may or may not be going on in a pard's head. Such rules, I will STILL hold by, should be rewritten to make them objective, not subjective.

 

Good luck, GJ

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The shooter has earned a P (-10 sec) and decides to try and mitigate that time by dumping as fast as they can into one target knowing they can get only one P.

During the dump, they've made up 7 of those penalty seconds.

Sounds like competitive advantage to me.

So now they earn the P plus a Spirit of the Game Penalty

ROI Page 27:

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME
30-Second Penalty Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage. Shooting ammunition that does not meet the power factor, minimum velocity. The penalty is applied for each stage a competitor is checked and their ammunition is found not to meet the power factor or minimum velocity. Willfully refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite or otherwise make an attempt to complete any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions. Note: Two Spirit of the Game or Failure to Engage penalties will result in a Match Disqualification.

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I've never seen a SOG awarded. I do think if a shooter earned the P then just dumps a subsequent gun an SOG is warranted. If got out of order with pistol, I could live with just dumping the last few roounds. but if moved to rifle and just dumped those, with no effort made to follow sequence, or at least do some sort of sweep, SOG.

 

The one time I saw an incident where I though a SOG should have been given but wasn't I was not a spotter or a TO. Had I been TO, likely would have assessed the SOG.

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There's lots of things we can declare "I think it was enough" to divine a shooter's intent and issue a SOG. And the pard standing next to you will disagree. Subjective penalties are really hard for all involved to come away thinking the right outcome was obtained.

 

And that decision often gets overturned when a shooter protests and takes it up the line of command at a shoot. It soon becomes an decision based on the character of the shooter versus the character of the TO or Posse Marshal who assessed the penalty. Because the folks making the final decision at the match were not on the line, seeing what happened and drawing their own conclusions about a subjective penalty.

 

Our game would be cleaner and easier to manage without subjective penalties requiring judging will and intent.

 

I'm just really glad we don't see a SOG handed out very often. Way too messy.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Most of the time, I see the shooter have a brain fade and get out of sink to get the procedural and it isn't till the end that they realize what they did.

 

It is rare that I have witnessed the shooter become aware of their error (Procedural) mid string, and just 'dump' the rest. Usually when they just dump the rest of the rounds, they pick up a couple more 'misses' (or more).

 

I have never seen the shooter continue their continue to dump rounds into the next firearm segment.

 

It is very hard to place well with a Procedural on your score card and you can not shoot your way out of a 10second penalty by shooting faster.

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I've seen two incidents where I think the penalty was warranted.

 

The first was a P then 8 dump. These were small and far (at random distances) targets. Shooter dumped on the closest. Shooter/MD/PM didn't get one.

 

The second was on a horrid rocking horse. Woe to you if someone who didn't like you was rocking it. It took some people a long time to aim (over 5 seconds), only to miss. One shooter just fired quickly without aiming. It just didn't seem sportsman/woman like to me. However, I can see why it was done. There were lots of screwy stages at this match so, we never went back.

 

What are your thoughts on these incidents?

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On the first one it would depend on what the stage instructions called for. If it called for any dumps I probably wouldn't call it, if it were sweeps or alternating or something like that I probably would have suggested to the shooter that they shoot other targets too and perhaps penalize them if they didn't.

 

For the second scenario I doubt I would make a SOG call and am pretty sure I wouldn't shoot such a match again. Way too much variance in how the stage is shot by individual shooters when you have people actually rocking the horse you're shooting from.

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Just yell "Freestyle"

folks will be laughing so hard, they just award you with the train wreck P

 

Scratch

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I've seen two incidents where I think the penalty was warranted.

 

The first was a P then 8 dump. These were small and far (at random distances) targets. Shooter dumped on the closest. Shooter/MD/PM didn't get one.

 

The second was on a horrid rocking horse. Woe to you if someone who didn't like you was rocking it. It took some people a long time to aim (over 5 seconds), only to miss. One shooter just fired quickly without aiming. It just didn't seem sportsman/woman like to me. However, I can see why it was done. There were lots of screwy stages at this match so, we never went back.

 

What are your thoughts on these incidents?

So, how long does it take to aim? I mean how long should a person aim to satisfy your idea of the spirit of the game?

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So, how long does it take to aim? I mean how long should a person aim to satisfy your idea of the spirit of the game?

 

Subjective decision criteria. Proof of the earlier statement.

 

Let's see this collection of variability about SOG calls:

it would depend

probably wouldn't call it

shooter/MD/PM didn't get one (but reading between the characters, other pards did for doing the same)

doubt I would make the call

how long should a person aim to satisfy (so as to not have gone too fast, thus earning a call)

 

Miss calls are bad enough (subjective) when you see counters not watching targets. You start talking most SOG scenarios, and all measurable, quantitative decision making has gone bye-bye.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I've seen two incidents where I think the penalty was warranted.

 

The first was a P then 8 dump. These were small and far (at random distances) targets. Shooter dumped on the closest. Shooter/MD/PM didn't get one.

 

The second was on a horrid rocking horse. Woe to you if someone who didn't like you was rocking it. It took some people a long time to aim (over 5 seconds), only to miss. One shooter just fired quickly without aiming. It just didn't seem sportsman/woman like to me. However, I can see why it was done. There were lots of screwy stages at this match so, we never went back.

 

What are your thoughts on these incidents?

Or... how about a supposedly full-grown adult male, when faced with a Jr. having just shot the fastest time on a stage, then claiming alibies until he finally got his act together and set a faster time on that stage. We now have a rule covering this type of action... "the _______ ___ rule"...

 

Or how about a "minister & his son", who shot double projectile loads... until they got caught?

 

Have more... don't want to waste bandwidth...

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The second was on a horrid rocking horse. Woe to you if someone who didn't like you was rocking it. It took some people a long time to aim (over 5 seconds), only to miss. One shooter just fired quickly without aiming. It just didn't seem sportsman/woman like to me. However, I can see why it was done. There were lots of screwy stages at this match so, we never went back.

 

What are your thoughts on these incidents?

How are you to penalize the "rocker"? The person shooting is placed at a disadvantage by the action of another... certainly not grounds for penalizing them. Unsportsmanlike conduct by the person doing the rocking? Yes... but aside from telling them, they're no longer welcome, you have no mechanism to give them a "penalty".

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Was at a state championship one time where your shotgun shells were placed by the TO in hanging overalls pockets. If TO liked you they were all in top vest pocket. If he did not like you he placed them in rear pockets and side pockets (including watch pocket) one in each. Several shooters complained, match director said tough break. Never went back.

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I've seen two incidents where I think the penalty was warranted.

 

The first was a P then 8 dump. These were small and far (at random distances) targets. Shooter dumped on the closest. Shooter/MD/PM didn't get one.

 

The second was on a horrid rocking horse. Woe to you if someone who didn't like you was rocking it. It took some people a long time to aim (over 5 seconds), only to miss. One shooter just fired quickly without aiming. It just didn't seem sportsman/woman like to me. However, I can see why it was done. There were lots of screwy stages at this match so, we never went back.

 

What are your thoughts on these incidents?

So, how long does it take to aim? I mean how long should a person aim to satisfy your idea of the spirit of the game?

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I shot a match once where the stage instructions said to hit each of the 22 targets once. Any gun, any target. Three of the targets were set at the end of the bay, so 85+ yards away. Rather than take the extra time to aim at all three, one of the shooters shot his last rifle round at them, followed by his two shotgun rounds, then when the cries of "FOUL" arose, said, "Can you prove I didn't hit them?" :lol:

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I shot a match once where the stage instructions said to hit each of the 22 targets once. Any gun, any target. Three of the targets were set at the end of the bay, so 85+ yards away. Rather than take the extra time to aim at all three, one of the shooters shot his last rifle round at them, followed by his two shotgun rounds, then when the cries of "FOUL" arose, said, "Can you prove I didn't hit them?" :lol:

 

One shooter who thought the stage through.

 

Good luck, GJ

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hey all, I have been trying to find a topic close to my issue and this is the closest i found. I believe that thumb slipping is a unfair advantage since duelist can not do it ... thumb slippers are all over and being allowed to use their other hand when duelist can not. i dont see how that isnt a spirit of the game issue. now i know most will say just shoot that style or be quiet.. well what if you dont want to shoot that style? i dont see why u would have to shoot one style if you want to be competitive? to me it isnt how cowboys shot back in the day, from what i read, and if anyone did it was frowned upon. and if it isnt an unfair thing then why cant duelist do it? i shoot gunfighter and i love it and i dont see why i would have to change to the other style( cant think of the style right now, traditional?) to get a shot at the overall best time. i know gunfighter vs gunfighter and duelist vs duelist, but there is an overall score and it is always won by the thumb slippers.... i feel it is a spirit of the game foul since other styles cant use it, and at the very least it should be its own category or sub category. now i know gunfighter is faster then duelist but it is a far greater chance to miss and u have to really practice it, slipping i can do without practice( much) and i am accurate as well... i ( and other fighters) see it as a spirit foul and i dont know how others cant. i know all want to be as fast as they can but slipping is unfair. open it up to all or take it away,OR put in own category so on the final overall score sheet we can tell the true cowboy shooters are and the ones that slip. kind of like when the juicers make the baseball hall of fame we should put the mark by their name to show they juiced..... again i dont hold grudges( although it sounds like it) but as long as they can slip no one that doesnt will have a shot at the overall score. UNFAIR! again sorry if i sound like im angry. and i look forward to any and all responses, thanks

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At my last shoot I managed to forget the sequence of 3 - 3 - 3 - 1 (on three targets) and started off 2 - 1 - then opps I realized I just earned a "p". Keeping with my rifle rhythm I finished 2 - 3 - 3 - 2 no misses

 

I have two questions

 

A) Would you call for a Spirit of the Game if I did 2 - 8

 

B) Without names, what are some example of Spirit of the Game that you have seen?

 

IMO, no you didn't even come close to a SOG. I've only seen (19 yrs) one issued......well deserved in my opinion. Shooter had a P, didn't move to the next position and dumped the remaining rounds.

 

It is rare that this call is made.

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Hey all, I have been trying to find a topic close to my issue and this is the closest i found. I believe that thumb slipping is a unfair advantage since duelist can not do it ... thumb slippers are all over and being allowed to use their other hand when duelist can not. i dont see how that isnt a spirit of the game issue. now i know most will say just shoot that style or be quiet.. well what if you dont want to shoot that style? i dont see why u would have to shoot one style if you want to be competitive? to me it isnt how cowboys shot back in the day, from what i read, and if anyone did it was frowned upon. and if it isnt an unfair thing then why cant duelist do it? i shoot gunfighter and i love it and i dont see why i would have to change to the other style( cant think of the style right now, traditional?) to get a shot at the overall best time. i know gunfighter vs gunfighter and duelist vs duelist, but there is an overall score and it is always won by the thumb slippers.... i feel it is a spirit of the game foul since other styles cant use it, and at the very least it should be its own category or sub category. now i know gunfighter is faster then duelist but it is a far greater chance to miss and u have to really practice it, slipping i can do without practice( much) and i am accurate as well... i ( and other fighters) see it as a spirit foul and i dont know how others cant. i know all want to be as fast as they can but slipping is unfair. open it up to all or take it away,OR put in own category so on the final overall score sheet we can tell the true cowboy shooters are and the ones that slip. kind of like when the juicers make the baseball hall of fame we should put the mark by their name to show they juiced..... again i dont hold grudges( although it sounds like it) but as long as they can slip no one that doesnt will have a shot at the overall score. UNFAIR! again sorry if i sound like im angry. and i look forward to any and all responses, thanks

Well, when I shoot duelist I usually skip hammer so....

And I have seen plenty update matches won by due lists.....

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Stonecoldkane, I have seen many matches where the overall winner was either a duelist or a gunfighter, I do not understand what you perceive as an unfair advantage. We have different shooting styles available to be used by shooters, each shooter uses the style that suits them best. Not every shooter has the skill or ability to be top overall; and lots of us just shoot for the fun and fellowship. There is no spirit of the game infraction in your example!

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At monthly match today. Pistols were 5 falling plates, then a dump target for any remain grounds after plates were down. Only plates left standing or mosses on the dump were counted as misses.

 

After joking with a pard at the loading table, I shot the 1st 4, then dumped 5 into the ground, then shot the 5 the target. It was faster, but I stood the risk if not knocking down the 5th plate. After everybody laughed, decided I should get "spirit of the Gamer" award.

 

 

I would not do this at a major match, was just giving fun at a monthly. But question is would that be a SOG?

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