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WTC - State level side match DQ?


COLORADO JACKSON

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One thing to consider. Since PP was shot in the same station at the same target it would be much easier for there to be multiple or even one hole in the table. But in any case to toss the entire group and scrap the two matches is beyond the scope of what should have happened. Even worse possibly is keeping quiet about it hoping no one would notice? If you are sure of your decision then own it.

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One thing to consider. Since PP was shot in the same station at the same target it would be much easier for there to be multiple or even one hole in the table. But in any case to toss the entire group and scrap the two matches is beyond the scope of what should have happened. Even worse possibly is keeping quiet about it hoping no one would notice? If you are sure of your decision then own it.

...

 

I agree about do not try to cover up a gross error. I guess the Club is owning their decision. The folks that shot the table have not.

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I just wish the person or persons that did it would contact Kow Katcher and own up. If someone else knows who did it, they should not just sit by without saying anything. This is a small club with only a few workers compared to most clubs in Texas and have limited funds also . These few people worked long and hard setting up this match and building stages, props, and dealing with several heavy rains that flooded the range causing the board walk to have to be repaired. I think they did a great job for so few regulars and were probably more than a little hurt that someone or more than one decided to act in such a disrespectful manner and not own up to it. Some people have said they know who did it, but they haven't managed to get that person or persons to own up to it nor have they told the match director who did it. We have all made some decisions in the heat of the moment that we wish we hadn't made or at least had taken more time before announcing the decision. Put yourself in that person's place before you keep criticizing their decision.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to edited post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to edited post

Hmmmm there was a handful of guys on United Fight 93 during the 9/11 terrorists attacked that decided to sacrifice an entire plane full of passengers so the bad guys would be stopped. They rushed the bad guys and the rest is history, but they were successful in stopping the bad actions of a few. There are some faint similarities between flight93 and the actions of the club. I suspect some will disagree.

 

I agree about do not try to cover up a gross error. I guess the Club is owning their decision. The folks that shot the table have not.

 

Of all the possible situations you could have compared this to, you chose the 9/11 terrorst attack??? wow.....just wow.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Insult
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Insult

 

Of all the possible situations you could have compared this to, you chose the 9/11 terrorst attack??? wow.....just wow.

 

A new low even for him.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers hidden part of post.
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers hidden part of post.

Hmmmm there was a handful of guys on United Fight 93 during the 9/11 terrorists attacked that decided to sacrifice an entire plane full of passengers so the bad guys would be stopped. They rushed the bad guys and the rest is history, but they were successful in stopping the bad actions of a few. There are some faint similarities between flight93 and the actions of the club. I suspect some will disagree.

 

I agree about do not try to cover up a gross error. I guess the Club is owning their decision. The folks that shot the table have not.

I don't have an opinion regarding this match, but your statement is absolutely deplorable. Even for you, which is actually saying a lot. To compare either side of this game we play to the sacrifice made by those on flight 93, well I just don't have the words. That's not true. I do have have the words, I just can't use them on here if I want to stick around

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I'm thinking that if they were shooting at steel at close distances those holes could have been cause by splash backs.

With a reported 18 new holes, I'm wonderin' if this doesn't have merit as a possible explanation. I'm w/Goody. Certainly a demonstration that if you fail to make a call you're penalizing all the other shooters. There is some precedence for throwing out a stage when it becomes clear it wasn't shot by all participants in a like fashion. Runnin' a match is NOT an exercise in democracy, sometimes decisions made with the best intentions and actually fair for all, prove unpopular. So be it. Kudos to KowKatcher for makin' a call.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to hidden part of post.
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to hidden part of post.

Hmmmm there was a handful of guys on United Fight 93 during the 9/11 terrorists attacked that decided to sacrifice an entire plane full of passengers so the bad guys would be stopped. They rushed the bad guys and the rest is history, but they were successful in stopping the bad actions of a few. There are some faint similarities between flight93 and the actions of the club. I suspect some will disagree.

 

I agree about do not try to cover up a gross error. I guess the Club is owning their decision. The folks that shot the table have not.

The fact that you even make this comparison is an embarrassment to you! You should call everyone effected by the tragedy that was 9/11 and apologize!

 

Seriously! I'm appalled!!!

 

You should be BANNED from the wire for remarks like this!!!!

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With a reported 18 new holes, I'm wonderin' if this doesn't have merit as a possible explanation. I'm w/Goody. Certainly a demonstration that if you fail to make a call you're penalizing all the other shooters. There is some precedence for throwing out a stage when it becomes clear it wasn't shot by all participants in a like fashion. Runnin' a match is NOT an exercise in democracy, sometimes decisions made with the best intentions and actually fair for all, prove unpopular. So be it. Kudos to KowKatcher for makin' a call.

Griff you are dead wrong!

 

The call was made without the corredt information in hand! They did not even discuss what might or might not have happened with the gentlemen that were running the side match in question. They jumped to a conclusion, without knowing the facts! Not acceptable as a match director, you have to be more responsible than that!

 

As a match director you owe it to every competitor to make the correct call based on correct information and the rules as written in the rule book! PERIOD!

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I'm thinking that if they were shooting at steel at close distances those holes could have been cause by splash backs. ..........................

 

 

With a reported 18 new holes, I'm wonderin' if this doesn't have merit as a possible explanation..................................

 

 

The only way that could have happened is if several folks also get hit with splash back as well. Or one person hit several times :wacko: . Also, if the splash back was strong enough to punch holes there should be some bloody shooters, too :o . Shooting steel up close is do-able if the target is set at a steep downward angle.

 

I wasn't there but from what I have read here there is somethings that just don't add up. I can't see any physical way to shoot the table top 18 times and it not destroy the carpet. About the only possible way would be if they gun was pointed straight down. Shooting the table top at an angle that many times would shred any carpet that I know of.

Sounds to me like the table got shot up then re-carpet-ed

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to edited post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to edited post

Ok folk that did not come out as planned.

I was attempting to say that a few went against what the apparent majority didn't like. One group were called hero's and the other bums.

By no means was I saying the Texas folks were terrorist.

 

Nor was I bad mouthing Flt 93... Those people used the limited knowledge provided to then and acted in the time frame aloted to them and did a very heroic act in stopping the terrorist. In the process, In the process, other passengers were killed. I am sure their thoughts were to just get the terrorist and save the plane, but it didn't work out that way.

 

The Texas State Match Officials did the same. Take limited information, in a short time and made their decision and some didn't get their award (hurt feelings).

 

That was the 'faint similarities' I was attempted to show.

 

Shooting Bull and others, the Flt 93 was the only real time true example that I could think of, that everyone would have familiarity to, that demonstrated people hurting a few to save a lot. The guys on Flt 93 did good and deserve every honor presented to them and their families. They may not have saved the plane but they saved countless folks on the ground.

 

That's all and I hope you understand a bit better.

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Griff you are dead wrong!

 

The call was made without the corredt information in hand! They did not even discuss what might or might not have happened with the gentlemen that were running the side match in question. They jumped to a conclusion, without knowing the facts! Not acceptable as a match director, you have to be more responsible than that!

 

As a match director you owe it to every competitor to make the correct call based on correct information and the rules as written in the rule book! PERIOD!

Not always practicable. Sometimes one has to make a decision based on what information one has. Be it good, bad or... I wasn't there, but having been a MD, not all pressures on a MD are visible to everyone. My advice, don't take it personally... you ever make a bad decision? Me? Yep, I probably shouldn't have told that city councilwoman she was a stupid ... cow... yep, that fits too.

 

Monday morning quarterbacking never changed the outcome of a game. Reasoned, dispassionate analysis certainly has helped the following week's performance.

 

Nate, I agree, seems unlikely... but strange things can happen.

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I doubt the perpetrators were even trying to cover anything up. They shot the table, they took their DQ for the event and went on their happy business. It was already said that only the top 3 times were recorded, so should the shooters of the table have had their names written down just to record the DQ? But still, 18 shots. Something big was wrong there beyond shooter error.

 

 

 

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Griff you are dead wrong!

 

The call was made without the corredt information in hand! They did not even discuss what might or might not have happened with the gentlemen that were running the side match in question. They jumped to a conclusion, without knowing the facts! Not acceptable as a match director, you have to be more responsible than that!

 

As a match director you owe it to every competitor to make the correct call based on correct information and the rules as written in the rule book! PERIOD!

+1 what he said

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I don't believe my pocket pistol or derringer ammo would even punch through a table......I did get struck on my throat with a 32 round that bounced back off a metal target, it left a pretty good bruise. There has to be more to this debate than what is being posted about it.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to edited post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to edited post

Of all the possible situations you could have compared this to, you chose the 9/11 terrorst attack??? wow.....just wow.

 

I was a bit surprised at the comparison, but not upset by it at all. I understand his point.

 

This brings forward a point I've had right along regarding the silly secretiveness that pervades SASS and CAS functions.

 

When a wrong is done, it's everyone's business, in my view. We have a right to know...all of us and not the privileged elite, who bask I their secret knowledge over a few glasses of bourbon. I believe that whoever knows should spit it out. This wasn't a local monthly match, it was a State, SAS-sanctioned match. We should know what happened via an honest report to members. I said that for this to happen was a result of poor management, but worse, bad member ethics. However, if it's true that no one was forthcoming to reveal the truth of what happened, the match officials probably felt that to keep order and penalize the ill-doers, those side matches had to be invalidated. Apparently, the ill-doers refused to own up and the others refused to say as well. Without much doubt, a trust was betrayed. If all that's true then, the match personnel (as I said), who (maybe) trusted too much and managed too little, did exactly the right thing, EXCEPT.... They had to fall into the trap of silence and secrecy, which is doing an injustice to all members and is plain foolish, in my view.

 

Cat Brules

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to hidden post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to hidden post

I was a bit surprised at the comparison, but not upset by it at all. I understand his point.

 

This brings forward a point I've had right along regarding the silly secretiveness that pervades SASS and CAS functions.

 

When a wrong is done, it's everyone's business, in my view. We have a right to know...all of us and not the privileged elite, who bask I their secret knowledge over a few glasses of bourbon. I believe that whoever knows should spit it out. This wasn't a local monthly match, it was a State, SAS-sanctioned match. We should know what happened via an honest report to members. I said that for this to happen was a result of poor management, but worse, bad member ethics. However, if it's true that no one was forthcoming to reveal the truth of what happened, the match officials probably felt that to keep order and penalize the ill-doers, those side matches had to be invalidated. Apparently, the ill-doers refused to own up and the others refused to say as well. Without much doubt, a trust was betrayed. If all that's true then, the match personnel (as I said), who (maybe) trusted too much and managed too little, did exactly the right thing, EXCEPT.... They had to fall into the trap of silence and secrecy, which is doing an injustice to all members and is plain foolish, in my view.

 

Cat Brules

I suspect that the match officials and memberships ass'es and spirits are exhausted and dragging after all what has been done to get this show on the road and clean up afterwards. I know mine was when I was a match official at a bigger match & after the fact. And now the wolves are howling at the gates.

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I doubt the perpetrators were even trying to cover anything up. They shot the table, they took their DQ for the event and went on their happy business. It was already said that only the top 3 times were recorded, so should the shooters of the table have had their names written down just to record the DQ? But still, 18 shots. Something big was wrong there beyond shooter error.

you about have to record each shooters time to determine at the end, who was the fastest three.

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I was one of the TO's at the PP and Der side match in question. During my time as TO, I did not see anyone shoot the table. Now...I have been known, in the past, to shoot the table and owned up to it my signing my name to the hit and getting DQed. To my knowledge, I did not shoot the table at this event nor did the other TO's say I did. The table was covered with green carpet and everyone was starting with the barrels touching the carpet covered table. There were a lot of power burns all over the carpet, some from black power. However, I did not inspect the table as Manassas did. If I had shot the table, I would have owned up to it.

Ghost

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I was one of the TO's at the PP and Der side match in question. During my time as TO, I did not see anyone shoot the table. Now...I have been known, in the past, to shoot the table and owned up to it my signing my name to the hit and getting DQed. To my knowledge, I did not shoot the table at this event nor did the other TO's say I did. The table was covered with green carpet and everyone was starting with the barrels touching the carpet covered table. There were a lot of power burns all over the carpet, some from black power. However, I did not inspect the table as Manassas did. If I had shot the table, I would have owned up to it.

Ghost

Curious,

 

What was the physical placement of the steel PP/ Deringger target in relationship to the carpeted table.?

 

Did shooters start with hammer cocked? Barrel touching table I've heard?

 

How did you verify the number of hits/miss/ or any other oddities on the steel target?

 

was a score given for every shooter that shot each side match?

 

 

Thank you,

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Not always practicable. Sometimes one has to make a decision based on what information one has. Be it good, bad or... I wasn't there, but having been a MD, not all pressures on a MD are visible to everyone. My advice, don't take it personally... you ever make a bad decision? Me? Yep, I probably shouldn't have told that city councilwoman she was a stupid ... cow... yep, that fits too.

 

Monday morning quarterbacking never changed the outcome of a game. Reasoned, dispassionate analysis certainly has helped the following week's performance.

 

Nate, I agree, seems unlikely... but strange things can happen.

Griff,

 

I was at the match! I personally know all involved! No match officials ever talk to the individuals running the side match before casting judgmet! THAT is the problem!

 

And by the way, I don't have a dog in the hunt, as I don't shoot pocket pistol or derringer. However, match integrity is extremely important to me as one who helps put them on and wants to see all rules followed and enforced fairly and equally!

 

 

WK

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to edited post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to edited post

Hmmmm there was a handful of guys on United Fight 93 during the 9/11 terrorists attacked that decided to sacrifice an entire plane full of passengers so the bad guys would be stopped. They rushed the bad guys and the rest is history, but they were successful in stopping the bad actions of a few. There are some faint similarities between flight93 and the actions of the club. I suspect some will disagree.

 

I agree about do not try to cover up a gross error. I guess the Club is owning their decision. The folks that shot the table have not.

The brother of a friend and co-worker was a pilot on that flight. The people who took on the terrorists, did not sacrifice the plane and passengers, they chose to try to defend and protect the passengers. You owe an apology to all the families and people on that flight. I di not know you from Adam, but I can tell you having read your comment meeting you is not something I will miss doing.

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I've been thinking about the 18 bullet holes...It was on a Thursday afternoon after raining most of the day. Maybe 30-40 shooters at the most. Now...I'm not making light of the situation, but about 50% of the shooters, using light .32s and 38s, hit the table. Or, let's say 6 very fast shooters hit the table 3 times. Or, one very fast shooter hit the table 18 times. Just going on my personal experience while running the timer, I did not have a spotter (not enough help running the side matches). So...watching the target, counting shots, and trying to detect false starts by sound, all in less than a second and a half and in some cases less than a second, with the carpet already stained with muzzle blasts (no visible holes) is pretty difficult. I didn't time very many, but the ones I did...did not shoot the table to my knowledge and I can assume the other TOs ran into the same scenario. 18 bullet holes. We have to come up with a better way to run this part of a match and set a standard.

 

Ghost

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to hidden post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 25, 2016 - Refers to hidden post

The brother of a friend and co-worker was a pilot on that flight. The people who took on the terrorists, did not sacrifice the plane and passengers, they chose to try to defend and protect the passengers. You owe an apology to all the families and people on that flight. I di not know you from Adam, but I can tell you having read your comment meeting you is not something I will miss doing.

Perhaps you missed Post # 84.

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Unless one of the Match Officials, who made the decision to toss the event have something to add, there is no use in continuing this discussion, especially as far OT as it has veered.

 

I hid the most controversial part (an unfortunate analogy) of Blastmaster's post and all replies to it, which were mostly insults.

 

If a match official contacts me that they want to post something here, I can unlock this thread, or they can start a new thread for that purpose

 

 

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you about have to record each shooters time to determine at the end, who was the fastest three.

Blastmaster,

 

I want to try to clarify a couple things with regard to this sidematch and scoring and how this can be a bigger picture thing. So please bear with me.

 

You could have 500 competitors and only write down 1 if it was the fastest. Pretty simple shooter #1 shoots .5 seconds, then you write it in the book. Shooter #2 shoots .75 seconds TO looks at the book, nope sorry you weren't faster, no need to write that down. Next shooters, more of the same. If the score stands for the whole match, only one score is in the books.

 

For the record, I have coordinated scoring at multiple State level SASS sanctioned side matches and large annuals, so I have a experience with what is involved.

 

All that being said, Most are missing the big picture! The "Match Officials" disqualified shooters without even discussing it with the Individuals that were running the side match! That would be like a Lassiter walking up to stage 8 at EOT after the range was cold and finding a hole in the table or roof or something and proceeding to DQing the last posse to shoot the stage without talking to the posse or posse marshal. Its all amazingly ridiculous!

 

This was totally out of line! Its a STATE MATCH! What else was or is awry?!

 

The purpose of this thread needs to be to force some individuals to answers some hard questions about how and why they made the ruling! I don't think anyone that wants this sport/game to continue to operate with integrity should settle for not having an answer to this!

 

The table being shot is an issue, but its no where near the big issue!

 

Every shooter that paid money to compete in this SASS sanctioned Texas State Championship, deserves an explanation from the officials as to how they could DQ a group of shooters, they had no direct contact with, without even consulting the TO's that they put in charge of the side match and were there to see what may or may not have happened!

 

Please everyone stay focused, It is important that these questions are answered!

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. Shooting the table top at an angle that many times would shred any carpet that I know of.

Sounds to me like the table got shot up then re-carpet-ed

That's what I was thinking............sounds like the table was maybe used to punch paper prior to the match. I'd look for leftover staples and if the holes are centered in a pattern :wacko: Stranger things have happened ;) . Good Luck :)

 

J :ph34r: R-E

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Griff,

I was at the match! I personally know all involved! No match officials ever talk to the individuals running the side match before casting judgmet! THAT is the problem!

And by the way, I don't have a dog in the hunt, as I don't shoot pocket pistol or derringer. However, match integrity is extremely important to me as one who helps put them on and wants to see all rules followed and enforced fairly and equally!

WK

This is it in a nutshell!

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Perhaps in light of the bounce-back that caught one shooter in the neck... redesigning that particular stage might be in order. How about starting with the pistol lying flat on the table uncocked, shooting at a target with a replaceable paper center. Totally eliminating the bounce-back. Put the new carpet only under the gun's starting position, so that the rest of the table is exposed.

 

Check the exposed table for holes before and after every shooter.

 

This match is in the past now, probably won't be changed, but can use it as a learning process going forward and improve from there.

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I don't believe my pocket pistol or derringer ammo would even punch through a table......

Ya know, it was reported that there was one slug still in the table. Hmmm. What caliber do you shoot?

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Ya know, it was reported that there was one slug still in the table. Hmmm. What caliber do you shoot?

At the Battle of Plum Creek match a couple of weeks ago there were several bullets that did not penetrate the plywood target board.

 

I've shot 32S&W with just a magnum primer. most cleared the barrel. I was just curious. I generally shoot them with APP

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Ya know, it was reported that there was one slug still in the table. Hmmm. What caliber do you shoot?

I would wager some big money that it was NOT Concho Billy....at least this time. And my .32 shorts barely make it out of the barrel and I am impressed that they punch a hole in the paper..thin paper hopefully.
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Now that we have the detail:

 

 

 

It was a Thursday

 

 

 

18 holes.

 

 

 

Some Doctor's dropped by to play golf!!! :D :D :D

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