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WTC - State level side match DQ?


COLORADO JACKSON

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The OP missed a few facts.

I went and looked at the table in question after the match. There were a large number of fresh ( you could tell by the color of the wood splinters ) holes in the table. I did not count them but I was told there were 18 of them. From what I saw that number is close. I questioned the match officials and was told they questioned the TOs, the side match director, and a number of shooters and they all came up with the same answer "I know nothing". IMHO, if eighteen people shot the table or one person shot the table eighteen times and nobody saw nothing. I question all the results of that side match as nobody was paying attention to the target hits or the shooters muzzle direction.

I support the MDs. All they ask was for one person to admit they shot the table or for the TOs to say who shot the table.

No there was absolutely no facts missing in my post, it happened exactly as it was written, whoever told you the TOs were questioned is incorrect, I sat with the TO who ran the majority of the side match and he was never questioned, nor was I. And as far as "a number of shooters questioned", also incorrect. Don't you think if shooters were going to be questioned, they would question the ones who won first? Well guess what, none of them were questioned, or at least 3 of the 4 weren't because I asked them. Because had they asked we could have told them what happened, but they never asked. Support them if you wish, but get your facts straight before you tell me I missed anything.

 

Signed: The 2016 Texas State Derringer Champion

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Tables are stage props. All props will sustain bullet holes. Just the way it is in all shooting games

 

While that may be true, some are designated at NOT being expendable and will earn a rather stiff penalty. Not sure if the table in the OP was one such prop.

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Skinner,

 

It wasn't miscommunication, it was no communication. I was siting next to the two shooters who thought they had won their side match that they both love shooting and helped to run during the banquet as we were all wondering, why they hadn't announced the PP and Derringer awards. You would think that "IF" there was an inquiry to a side match, the people who had been running the timer for the majority of the side match had been questioned and might have an idea what was going on. But as it was they were not once questions about anything to do with the event.

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How can you penalize everybody when nobody seen anything??? Sounds like a bunch of kindergartener kids, one kids bad no recess for all . I hate to see the safety at this match if nobody knows where the bullets are flying if anyone responsible it should be the 3 timer holders isn't it there job to see muzzle is pointed in the right direction???

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No visible damage to the carpet, eighteen fresh holes in the table. There are several things in this I would question, Muzzle contact with the carpet and eighteen muzzle blasts would make it noticeable had the carpet been there when the holes were made. Damage to wood products that are not exposed to UV (sunlight) can look fresh for days, weeks even months. Furthermore, I find it hard or impossible to believe anyone would allow this to happen but I absolutely don't believe that one or more individuals would or could fire eighteen rounds into a prop during a match without anyone seeing it.

The Texans that I have known are hardcore good guys tough competitors sure but honest to a fault but look the other way while eighteen shots are fired no I don't think so this didn't happen during the match. During the years I have shot cowboy I have seen a lot of mistakes made and never seen anyone not willing to take credit for their errors. If you want to punish all the participants in your match because you think something happened is your business but I think its a serious mistake.

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Please also keep in mind we are talking about two shots with a .2 of a second split. Also, this wasn't a bare wooden table where impacts would be evident, it was covered in heavy outdoor carpet and didn't easily show signs of any hits.

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The safety officer in charge of the side match could not tell where the rounds were going? How in the heck did they score hits on the derringer targets, then?

 

They never saw a barrel pointed into the table at the time a shot went off? When it happened (perhaps) 18 times?

 

Where's the requirement that the TO (even in a side match) keep the competitor's barrel direction in sight while the line is hot?

 

Firing down into a table top comes close to breaking 170 - was no one even watching for that?

 

It really matters not how fast the shooters were going. If the TO can't keep track of the muzzle, the TO doesn't have control of the side match! If the shooter can't keep control of the muzzle, he earns a SDQ or a side-Match DQ. There are no other ways to even consider this side match safe.

 

That's just a few of the unanswered but obvious questions.

 

Come on pards, the whole story, please, or move this to the saloon for entertainment value only. Then you can all keep dancing with half-truths all night long. :(

 

Good luck, GJ

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The safety officer in charge of the side match could not tell where the rounds were going? How in the heck did they score hits on the derringer targets, then?

 

They never saw a barrel pointed into the table at the time a shot went off? When it happened (perhaps) 18 times?

 

Where's the requirement that the TO (even in a side match) keep the competitor's barrel direction in sight while the line is hot?

 

Firing down into a table top comes close to breaking 170 - was no one even watching for that?

 

It really matters not how fast the shooters were going....but if you can't keep track of the muzzle, you don't have control of the side match!

 

That's just a few of the unanswered but obvious questions.

 

Come on pards, the whole story, please, or move this to the saloon for entertainment value only. Then you can all keep dancing with half-truths all night long. :(

 

Good luck, GJ

Where you there to see the setup Joe? The proximity of the target to the table? Easy on the flaming! We are all searching for answers! The fact is the Match Director and supporting cast didn't even ask the TO's what happened before making the decision to DQ everyone! That is the problem!

 

I know of a shooter that shot the table. I found out well after the awards were over. He wasn't one of the cowboys or cowgirls that were striped of their hat pin. I'm also not willing to throw him under the bus, nor would I think the two Champs want that to happen. BTW, they didn't shoot the table.

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Well, I saw what I saw and I trust the people that told me what they did.

In my opinion there was something very wrong with that stage for there to be that many mistakes.

I'm done.

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I guess no powder burns in carpet? Even a spit wad load has some fire & hot gasses coming out barrel at point blank range.

 

Was carpet always on table and same carpet?

 

No official or other contestant watching muzzle at beep and seeing wood splinters flying, 18times?I guess not

 

I asked before, anyone knew the condition of the table before the match ,or at least when they went through?

 

There are several someone's that know, but are not telling, and that is the sad& disturbing part.

 

 

Haven't found the bottom yet.

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I can't believe that not one person admitted to shooting the table or even seeing anyone shoot the table. That kind of behavior in itself is not what SASS is all about. Maybe if even one person had come forward, they might have given the awards. Unless you question the match directors and side match marshals, we will never know why the decision was made, but I'm sure they were upset that people weren't being honest about shooting the table that many times.

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Well, I saw what I saw and I trust the people that told me what they did.

In my opinion there was something very wrong with that stage for there to be that many mistakes.

I'm done.

MJ I'm not mad at you at all, but I find it very strange how many people knew about this and were questioned about it, yet no one ever asked the people that were actually standing there when it happened, even though according to you, " a number of shooters were questioned", "all the match officials", and "the side match director", and still not one of them ever said a word to the ones that were there....help me out with this, does it seem right to you??

My point is, why not ask all parties involved before making a snap decision as to what you think happened, only took me five minutes to figure out who shot the table, would have been the same for everyone else, if they would have asked...see where I'm going

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From the Old Fort Parker Patriots Facebook page Posted for Kow Katcher by Kathleen Rowland Rollins

 

"Kow Katcher sent me this statement to post on her behalf:

First of all, I have not been avoiding the issue. I have been too busy picking up and putting up after the match to be anywhere near Facebook. And I wonder why the people with questions did not ask me directly since I know they have my contact information. That being said:

 

The side matches began at noon and the two individuals in charge of the pocket pistol and derringer did not go to the range until 2 or 3 hours late...r. Another shooter took up the slack and at the time the "regulars" arrived, it was observed by match officials that there was no damage to the table---with the newly carpeted tables new damage is easily seen. After side matches were completed, during the posse marshal walk thru, the damage was discovered. Upon inspection it was discovered that there were a minimum 12 new holes with one round still in the table. Since shooting a prop is an automatic DQ and no one "fessed up.", it was discussed among all match officials and unanimously decided that the results from those two side matches would be disregarded."

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From the Old Fort Parker Patriots Facebook page Posted for Kow Katcher by Kathleen Rowland Rollins

 

"The side matches began at noon and the two individuals in charge of the pocket pistol and derringer did not go to the range until 2 or 3 hours late...r. Another shooter took up the slack and at the time the "regulars" arrived, it was observed by match officials that there was no damage to the table---with the newly carpeted tables new damage is easily seen. After side matches were completed, during the posse marshal walk thru, the damage was discovered. Upon inspection it was discovered that there were a minimum 12 new holes with one round still in the table. Since shooting a prop is an automatic DQ and no one "fessed up.", it was discussed among all match officials and unanimously decided that the results from those two side matches would be disregarded."

 

This is not a true statement. This is a version posted by someone who was not there for someone who was not there. The "regulars" were late due to rain and the possibility of cancelling the sidematches like they did the WB side match. One of the "regulars", ME, show up and noticed there was no target, timer, or score sheets at the stage. Asked for a down range, set up a target, got the timer and score sheets. Then was there for all but about 5 minutes. I was assisted by two long time shooters that would not hesitate to call a MDQ. I ran the timer most of the time and warned the shooters to use caution due to the starting position. Told them if they shot the table, their day would be over. I watched the muzzle specifically to ensure they didn't jump the timer so I was incredulous when they said the table had been shot that many times when I was staring right at the point where the muzzle touched the table. Not saying it didn't happen but with the carpet, it WAS NOT clear. I was not consulted or questioned about it until after I asked why the awards were not given. That id when I found out what they had decided. The call is ridiculous and without merit. If I was MD I would also be upset but the only thing I could do is learn from it and make sure that never happened again.

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This is not a true statement. This is a version posted by someone who was not there for someone who was not there. The "regulars" were late due to rain and the possibility of cancelling the sidematches like they did the WB side match. One of the "regulars", ME, show up and noticed there was no target, timer, or score sheets at the stage. Asked for a down range, set up a target, got the timer and score sheets. Then was there for all but about 5 minutes. I was assisted by two long time shooters that would not hesitate to call a MDQ. I ran the timer most of the time and warned the shooters to use caution due to the starting position. Told them if they shot the table, their day would be over. I watched the muzzle specifically to ensure they didn't jump the timer so I was incredulous when they said the table had been shot that many times when I was staring right at the point where the muzzle touched the table. Not saying it didn't happen but with the carpet, it WAS NOT clear. I was not consulted or questioned about it until after I asked why the awards were not given. That id when I found out what they had decided. The call is ridiculous and without merit. If I was MD I would also be upset but the only thing I could do is learn from it and make sure that never happened again.

+1 What he said!!!

 

Very governmental! Lets take away everyone's pencils and pens because one knucklehead poked their eye out with a sharp stick!

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Jack, if you say it's so, then I know it must be true, but it's hard to imagine TO's, spotters or even the shooters not calling this. 18 times?!?

Maybe someone put the target on the ground under the table.

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Maybe someone put the target on the ground under the table.

He would still hit the undeclared table prop before hitting the target, penalty,,,,unless his bullet went through someone elses bullet hole(s). LOL. It would have to be a team effort for the first shooters to default to make sufficient bullet holes for later shooter to take advantage of hole. LOL

 

No, this is a serious situation and not SASS

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This is not a true statement. This is a version posted by someone who was not there for someone who was not there. The "regulars" were late due to rain and the possibility of cancelling the sidematches like they did the WB side match. One of the "regulars", ME, show up and noticed there was no target, timer, or score sheets at the stage. Asked for a down range, set up a target, got the timer and score sheets. Then was there for all but about 5 minutes. I was assisted by two long time shooters that would not hesitate to call a MDQ. I ran the timer most of the time and warned the shooters to use caution due to the starting position. Told them if they shot the table, their day would be over. I watched the muzzle specifically to ensure they didn't jump the timer so I was incredulous when they said the table had been shot that many times when I was staring right at the point where the muzzle touched the table. Not saying it didn't happen but with the carpet, it WAS NOT clear. I was not consulted or questioned about it until after I asked why the awards were not given. That id when I found out what they had decided. The call is ridiculous and without merit. If I was MD I would also be upset but the only thing I could do is learn from it and make sure that never happened again.

I've known "Big Iron Patnode for several years, his word is good as gold.

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Regardless of how this occurred............

 

The scratching of all scores has no basis, you do not DQ everyone. Please find that rule for me. It is obvious the RM and MD were not communicating.

 

Which brings another question: Where were the Range Master and Match Director during the side matches?

 

I have served both functions at annuals and one or both should have been on the range checking in with each stage and side match. I have even set up a shoot at this same range as RM and so I know the set up.

 

So before we throw the stage hands into the fire, maybe we should acknowledge a lack of observation by the RM and MD as well.

Someone dropped the ball for sure, I don't understand the DQ for everyone, if you didn't see it/call it, it didn't happen. The winner could have shot clean and probably did, but he gets a penalty because someone shot the prop......poor planning, poor ruling, poor decision.

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I'm thinking that if they were shooting at steel at close distances those holes could have been cause by splash backs. I doubt I would shoot a derringer side match at steel for safety reasons. Maybe the reason no one saw anybody shoot the table because everyone hit the target and the splash back caused the holes that sounds more feasible especially with 18 holes because I bet they are barely 18 derringer shooters at EOT.

 

So one said this wasn't the first time for a bad call like this at this match. Which is sad as I was thinking of attending but my Motorhome is in the shop getting the inverter repaired/replaced like it was supposed to have been done before I bought it back in January. I'll wait to see two things before attending the match in the future. The most important is if any more bad calls are called and that will be my deciding factor. I'll also be curious to see if they keep the state championship after this.

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Is the match director a prison warden in real life??

That is uncalled for.

 

Post #50 states the decision was unanimously made by the match officials. I would believe that since I've never seen just one person (MD) make such a huge decision without consultation. Matches are Club sponsored events and the clubs reputation is on the line.

 

So if you want to throw someone under the bus, think about throw the whole match under the wheels.

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It's awfully hard to make a judgement without all the information, but I find it difficult to believe that a prop was shot 18 times and no one noticed. Seems the holes were there before the cover was placed, or someone used the table for a target while it was unattended. How many times was the stage shot? What percentage of the shooters would have had to shoot the table to get that many holes? Scrapping the side match seems iffy at best.

 

I hope someone can post a happy ending.

 

CR

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Were the guns cocked for the start position? That's the only way I could figure someone could shoot a hole in a table. I've run PP and Derringer events for years and have never seen a hole shot through a table. Sounds like a gamey bunch. :)

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Blackeye Cole,

 

It will move, the Texas State match is already slated to go to Plum Creek Shooting Society in 2017.

 

It was there in 2014 and was one of the best state shoots we have attended in years and has a really good crew. So many of us are looking forward to that shoot and hope many shooters will attend.

 

Blastmaster you are correct, the decision was made by the group running the shoot and the responsibility is not just on the MD. This is not the first decision made at this club that came under heavy fire. I believe that is a big reason for the backlash and the reason we did not attend this year.

All a person can do is vote with your feet and wallet. When a club(s) have a pattern of violations (moral or otherwise), then the first time is shame on them, second and later is shame on you for going.

 

I am not for sure the club did wrong with the way they approached it. If they allowed it, then potential a lot of immorral and possible cheaters went unpunished. iIF they disqualified the sidematch, then potential innocent people got hurt. Really, the only innocent people were only the ones that participated in the side match, shot it as per the rules w/o penalties AND had a chance at a placement award. It was a no win decision for the match officials. They picked their poison and perhaps it wasn't the worst.

 

If shooter(s) sees a violation of this magnitude and says 'nothing', 'informs no one', 'does nothing',etc,,, then they are part of the problem too, and if they miss out on an award, well, they should have been more helpful.

 

ps, the event is in the books, winners names are in the history books, anyone not there doesn't care, and 90% of the people there will not care come monday. All over a sidematch. If side matches have this much drama, I can not imagine what happened in the main match.

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I saw a movie years back where a group of people decided to murder another person. In turn, each person in the group fired the pistol, sending a bullet into the victim.

 

Maybe that's what happened to the table(?).

 

Sounds like poor oversight and poor ethics involved here. Too bad.

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Were the guns cocked for the start position? That's the only way I could figure someone could shoot a hole in a table. I've run PP and Derringer events for years and have never seen a hole shot through a table. Sounds like a gamey bunch. :)

 

This is along the lines of what I was wondering. I've shot more than my share of derringer side matches and never once saw a scenario where the table was in danger. Yes, start with the muzzle touching the table but, the gun gets cocked on the way up to the target. Not only is it odd the table got shot but dang, 18 times? Sure would like to hear the rest of the story.

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Of course, everyone here that has ever set up a match, has set targets and had everything ready, then you go to somewhere else on the range only to return and find that your targets/tables have been shot up by persons unknown.

 

This invisible shooter appears at all ranges sooner or later and leaves destruction in their wake.

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...Not only is it odd the table got shot but dang, 18 times?...

 

Dang, that probably took that one shooter quite some time to do all the reloading needed for those 18 shots. Was definitely out of the running after that...

 

cr

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