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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

Please vote for the dropped round rule to go away!

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In my experience and observations , the rule change will NOT benefit the better shooters. The push to change it doesn't come from a competitive perspective but rather from observing mid pack or lower shooters getting penalized for picking up a shell. The FACT that the current rule isn't applied evenly is also a problem. One simple solution to that is to get rid of the rule.

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Bart - I saw a shooter at PoP lose a category state championship over picking up a dropped shotgun shell on a table. Yes, he should have known better, but picking up that dropped shell posed no safety hazard what so ever.

 

Should the rule be taken away, the biggest change I see is that some folks will be picking up rounds off tables, very very few, if any will be going to the ground to retrieve dropped rounds.

 

I am a regular shooter and know a bunch who think as I do that it's time for the rule to go away.

While most of the time grabbing for a shell rolling around on the table won't create a hazard, every once in a while it will. If somebody is stupid to go to the ground to pick up a shell, the 170 rule isn't going to stop him from being stupid enough to break it too. The current rule is simply safer than the alternative.

 

A bunch of us spent a fair amount of time on this one this evening, and we voted to instruct our TG to vote against, because the potential harm far out weighs the perceived good.

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In my experience and observations , the rule change will NOT benefit the better shooters. The push to change it doesn't come from a competitive perspective but rather from observing mid pack or lower shooters getting penalized for picking up a shell. The FACT that the current rule isn't applied evenly is also a problem. One simple solution to that is to get rid of the rule.

 

 

I am not worried about the good shooters. I am worried about the inexperienced shooters who are easily flustered. They need bright line rules. The current rule is black and white, the repeal leads directly to confusion and a real potential for a genuine safety problem.

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This much like the action open/closed rule if passed will eliminate confusion of how to apply the penalty in question. I have seen it called a variety of ways and for a variety of reasons. A year later the action open/closed rule is WORKING as intended and folks are on board and actually has made the line safer due to shooters not performing body contortion to open a long gun or moving with a cocked loaded revolver when TO yells lever. Having TO'ed thousands of shooters I have seen shooters retrieve dropped rounds dozens of times even while being properly coached not to do so. The current rule did not stop them from doing that.

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You know, now that I think about it, every time I have seen someone break the traveling rule they have been standing. Maybe if we make it a minor safety to shoot while standing we can eliminate some of the traveling infractions.

+1,000,000

Smokestack, you are a GENIUS and I agree with this suggestion 100%. I have also witnessed many people breaking that travelling rule and I refuse to stand for it. If we can get this rule passed, I may actually get into the top 10 shooters for a change.

 

That being said, I am in agreement with those who want to be rid of that rule.

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This much like the action open/closed rule if passed will eliminate confusion of how to apply the penalty in question. I have seen it called a variety of ways and for a variety of reasons. A year later the action open/closed rule is WORKING as intended and folks are on board and actually has made the line safer due to shooters not performing body contortion to open a long gun or moving with a cocked loaded revolver when TO yells lever. Having TO'ed thousands of shooters I have seen shooters retrieve dropped rounds dozens of times even while being properly coached not to do so. The current rule did not stop them from doing that.

 

I haven't timed as many as you Deuce,but I too have seen shooters instinctively pick up shells dropped on a table a few inches away. I don't have a problem with a rule to allow that, but the proposed rule change goes beyond that situation to allow shooters to go to ground to find a jacked round. I understand that the current proposal is intended to overcome hypothetical obections to a commonsense rule about fumbled shotgun shells right in front of the shooter. People seem to be willing to abandon safety because they are unable to craft a solid commonsense rule.

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I haven't timed as many as you Deuce,but I too have seen shooters instinctively pick up shells dropped on a table a few inches away. I don't have a problem with a rule to allow that, but the proposed rule change goes beyond that situation to allow shooters to go to ground to find a jacked round. I understand that the current proposal is intended to overcome hypothetical obections to a commonsense rule about fumbled shotgun shells right in front of the shooter. People seem to be willing to abandon safety because they are unable to craft a solid commonsense rule.

If we take this one step more......

Why don't we get ridiculous and give the shooter a Minor Safety for jacking out or dropping a round. After all, that's what would cause them to go groveling in the dirt for it. Maybe we should give them a penalty for even loading the gun or even having live ammunition. Why don't we give them a penalty for dumping live unused rounds in their hands from their double barrel. (technically that would be catching a live ejected round)

But I guess that penalizing a shooter for what could have happened is a good thing for some. Next thing you know, we will be giving penalizing shooting downrange because that might have been unsafe had they pointed the gun in another direction or issuing a penalty for holding a loaded gun in his hand because he MIGHT move with it while it is cocked.

 

There is nothing unsafe about crawling around on the ground and turning over rocks and boulders looking for that lost round. We allow the shooter that fall down and rolls in the dirt to get up again and continue the stage without a penalty.

 

And just for kicks...... There is no penalty for picking up brass/empty hulls or belly button lint from anywhere while shooting a stage. Only a penalty for retrieving EJECTED/DROPPED LIVE ROUNDS. A shooter can pick up his shooting glasses or ear plugs that fall to the ground without penalty.

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In the very limited times that I have seen a shooter reach for an ejected live round it is because the shooter is currently in the process of attempting to load the firearm.....the last time I checked a round had to be in the chamber for the firearm to go boom.

 

In the mix of yes or no, where are expecting the TO to be located at the time of the "safety" violation.....getting coffee?

 

The TO must watch the firearm and count rounds fired.

 

If the TO is uncomfortable watching the firearm and counting rounds down range, then please pass the timer on to the next willing individual.

 

Please vote to remove the dropped round is a dead round.

 

Thank you.

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I am not worried about the good shooters. I am worried about the inexperienced shooters who are easily flustered. They need bright line rules. The current rule is black and white, the repeal leads directly to confusion and a real potential for a genuine safety problem.

 

If the current rule is so crystal clear, then why are there so many different ways it is applied (if it is even enforced)?

The examples have been given in previous posts throughout this thread. The CONFUSION already exists in the face of a "black & white" rule.

They vary from reaching toward a round dropped on a table in front of them (which, BTW, is LEGAL if the shooter PLACES one or more rounds in that same position...same as "on the ground" as noted)...

to assessing a MSV only if the shooter actually loads & fires a round that was declared "dead" and subsequently retrieved in spite of the T/O's admonition to NOT do so (if the T/O even saw the shooter pick up the round).

The actual penalty for "retrieving" a dropped or ejected round has been ruled to involve some "movement" of the round in question (including a round caught in air after being ejected from a long gun).

There is NO PENALTY for simply reaching for and touching a round that has been dropped or ejected...the violation is for actually RETRIEVING it, even though the same action (reaching however far to the point where the round landed) MIGHT involve a break of the 170º with a long gun "in hand"...but in 20+ years of playing this game on almost a weekly basis, I've never seen such a violation when a shooter either attempted or succeeded in retrieving a dropped round.

 

Putting aside the facetious arguments that go WAY beyond the point of "OMG, we're using REAL GUNZ with LIVE AMMO! We're all gonna DIE!"

I find it difficult to justify a 10-second penalty for doing something that is NOT NECESSARILY UNSAFE just because someone might visualize a "what if" based on the remote possibility that a shooter could forget that he has a FIREARM "in hand" during a stage engagement.

BTW - The current rule specifically ALLOWS "retrieval" of dropped/ejected rounds once the shooter has fired the last shot of the stage...WITHOUT PENALTY...whether s/he has a firearm "in hand" or not...without any restriction as to WHERE those rounds might have landed...on a prop/table or ON THE GROUND.

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I will add that this item failed to pass last year by 6 votes.

 

It is very important for clubs to be represented at the convention. It can be done by E-mailing your votes to me (WildlifeRangers@aol.com), sending a person to carry your proxy or by having your TG at the convention. There is no excuse for not having your club votes count.

 

Roo

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The comparison between staged ammunition and a round rolling around after it has been dropped after the buzzer is simply false. There is no comparison. The current rule is a bright line. If you drop or jack a round on the clock you can't use it. The rest of the business about MSV and no penalty after the firing of the last gun is pure smoke. The clock changes everything. It applies pressure.

 

The rule exists to insure that some knucklehead doesn't try to save his clean shoot by diving to the ground to pick up a jacked round. As a TO I would much rather just say NO don't dive to the ground than try to follow the action as the shooter crawls around to make sure he doesn't sweep anybody.

 

And yes, the only reason we have safety rules is because we are using real guns. If we were playing with Mattel Fanner 50s we wouldn't need any of the current safety rules.

 

Don't make the game less safe just because your committee can't fashion an exception for the shotgun shell that slips out and lands within inches of the shooter's hand.

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The comparison between staged ammunition and a round rolling around after it has been dropped after the buzzer is simply false. There is no comparison. The current rule is a bright line. If you drop or jack a round on the clock you can't use it. The rest of the business about MSV and no penalty after the firing of the last gun is pure smoke. The clock changes everything. It applies pressure.

 

The rule exists to insure that some knucklehead doesn't try to save his clean shoot by diving to the ground to pick up a jacked round. As a TO I would much rather just say NO don't dive to the ground than try to follow the action as the shooter crawls around to make sure he doesn't sweep anybody.

 

And yes, the only reason we have safety rules is because we are using real guns. If we were playing with Mattel Fanner 50s we wouldn't need any of the current safety rules.

 

Don't make the game less safe just because your committee can't fashion an exception for the shotgun shell that slips out and lands within inches of the shooter's hand.

Bart, I am very disappointed in the fact that you feel the need to ridicule a group of volunteers that is the ROC that works very hard to keep our game consistent and make clarifications that are best for the sport. I see you have edited your post but I saw the original. Take a deep breath, your anger will not change anyones mind.

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Bart,

Do you honestly believe that someone will recklessly dive to the ground to save a clean match with total disregard for their muzzle direction?

 

I would suggest that such a person is already a hazard and should probably not be playing the game. We could make "what if's" about this type of person in regard to any one of a number of shooting situations. We have safety rules in place in regard to muzzle direction. Why not let that be the rule that governs the shooters actions?

 

Have you considered the fact that if the stage instructions state "make the rifle safe" without any further stipulations that a shooter could in fact lay their gun down on the ground as long as the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction?

 

I seriously doubt it will lead to haphazard gun handling.....your mileage may vary......

 

Stan

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I have read the arguments and find all of them unpersuasive. So do all of the shooters I have talked to about the proposed rule. The idea that you can stage ammunition on the ground is not the same as mucking around trying to find a jacked round. The current rule is simple and easy to understand and it is safe. The proposed rule isn't. For the life of all of us regular shooters out here we can't figure out what real problem you big dogs are trying to fix. Any shooter going to the line can and should carry extra ammunition. If some shooter has failed to carry extra to the line, I strike the balance on him not having a clean match when compared the danger posed by him bumble fumbling on the ground with loaded guns in hand. This is a game, but it should be a safe game.

Hello Bart,

 

I believe that the proposed rule is simple. There will be no need for any verbiage as infractions are covered in breaking the 170.

 

Following is the current rule that would be removed. It contains 262 words. Notice the exceptions that are described, which IMO leads to confusion with the current rule.

"Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description, or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot. For example, if a round of shotgun ammo is dropped while loading, the round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or counted as a miss. No attempt may be made by the shooter, or any other person, to pick up the dropped round for use on that stage. Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss of muzzle direction control. Once the dropped round leaves the shooter’s hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round. Stop the shooter if he tries to recover the dead round. It is a 10-second Minor Safety Violation if the shooter retrieves the round during the stage. Staged rounds that are dropped back where they were staged are NOT considered “dead.” For example, if a round is staged in a box on a table and it is dropped back into the box, it may be picked up. If it falls onto the table, it may not be picked up. Rounds safely “placed” onto a prop from their original loading area are not considered “dropped” rounds as long as recovering these rounds does not create loss of muzzle control."

 

I'm not sure who you consider a "regular shooter."

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Use Common Sense !!!!

if you cannot safely operate a firearm, use should learn, or not play the game.

By having this rule does not make you any safer.

The part that has me really concerned is all the name calling, and finger pointing.

We all Love this game and are passionate about it's future. But oppinions are like @$$(*&%# everybody has one.

Let's Respect each other, The game, and let the majority decide where the chips (or bullit's) may fall.

 

my opinion

Scratch

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The comparison between staged ammunition and a round rolling around after it has been dropped after the buzzer is simply false. There is no comparison. The current rule is a bright line. If you drop or jack a round on the clock you can't use it. The rest of the business about MSV and no penalty after the firing of the last gun is pure smoke. The clock changes everything. It applies pressure.

 

The rule exists to insure that some knucklehead doesn't try to save his clean shoot by diving to the ground to pick up a jacked round. As a TO I would much rather just say NO don't dive to the ground than try to follow the action as the shooter crawls around to make sure he doesn't sweep anybody.

 

And yes, the only reason we have safety rules is because we are using real guns. If we were playing with Mattel Fanner 50s we wouldn't need any of the current safety rules.

 

Don't make the game less safe just because your committee can't fashion an exception for the shotgun shell that slips out and lands within inches of the shooter's hand.

Have you EVER seen the 170 broken by someone retrieving a dropped round????

 

If so, we'd all like to hear about it!!! Please tell us!!!

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With that type of thinking, as given by Bart Solo, we should do away with cross draw holsters and crotch holsters because someone may break the 170,,,, which btw would be with a LOADED firearm 1/2 of the time!!!!!

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I understand and appreciate all of the arguments for the repeal, but yes I honestly believe there are shooters who will recklessly dive to the ground to save a clean match. The TO will have to wait until the reckless shooter sweeps the crowd before stepping in. Right now we don't get that far. If you have been shooting any length of time I bet you have encountered reckless shooters too. This is one rule that tilts the scale in favor of safety. Repealing it because some shooters who failed to think ahead want to save their precious clean matches doesn't make us safer.

 

I am pretty sure the repeal is going to go through, but I think this is a change that really isn't needed.

 

I would like to suggest to the folks proposing the change, that, yes, this rule change has been discussed outside the wire in great depth. It is one on which everyone has an opinion. So when I was asked if I had read the thread, the answer is yes. I had also just come from an extensive discussion of all of the aspects of the rule change.

 

Whenever a group wants to change a long standing rule, the burden should be on them to clearly and persuasively present rational arguments for their proposed change.

 

I have tried not to call names, and most of the people on the other side have done the same. This has been a good discussion and I am proud of the folks on both sides. I am just not persuaded.

 

One final thought. We play our game on the clock. To beat the clock most of us plan every move ahead. We plan not to break the 170 with our cross draw. We plan to make sure our muzzle is down range as we move and shoot. Retrieving a dropped round isn't planned. It is something done spontaneously. People are prone to make mistakes when they spontaneously act under pressure. The current rule recognizes that simple reality and balances the scales in favor of safety. Its repeal invites the very situation the current rule was intended to head off.

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For those worried about degrading safety, please read post #27.

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=243748#entry3180065

 

We need to ban live ammo on the shooting line. It is dangerous.

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Bart,

Do you honestly believe that someone will recklessly dive to the ground to save a clean match with total disregard for their muzzle direction?

 

I would suggest that such a person is already a hazard and should probably not be playing the game. We could make "what if's" about this type of person in regard to any one of a number of shooting situations. We have safety rules in place in regard to muzzle direction. Why not let that be the rule that governs the shooters actions?

 

Have you considered the fact that if the stage instructions state "make the rifle safe" without any further stipulations that a shooter could in fact lay their gun down on the ground as long as the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction?

 

I seriously doubt it will lead to haphazard gun handling.....your mileage may vary......

 

Stan

+1

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I haven't timed as many as you Deuce,but I too have seen shooters instinctively pick up shells dropped on a table a few inches away. I don't have a problem with a rule to allow that, but the proposed rule change goes beyond that situation to allow shooters to go to ground to find a jacked round. I understand that the current proposal is intended to overcome hypothetical obections to a commonsense rule about fumbled shotgun shells right in front of the shooter. People seem to be willing to abandon safety because they are unable to craft a solid commonsense rule.

 

Okay, it would allowed, would anybody ever do it? Have you ever seen that? I sure haven't. What shooter, in their right mind, would take the time to go all the way down to the ground to retrieve a dropped shotgun round when there are more right there at their waist. And I specify shotgun round because a jacked live rifle round is going to be a yard or more BEHIND the shooter. No way on Earth someone's going to try to retrieve one of those. What I'm saying is that this rule REALISTICALLY only removes the penalty for plucking up a shotgun round from a table or shelf or bale of hay that's sitting right there in front of the shooter. And there's really no increased chance of breaking the 170 when doing that. If they do, there's already a penalty in place to deal with it.

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A round that leaves the shooters hand or gun is "dead". If desired, replace it from your person or a staged location if required by stage instruction. The use of a "dead" round will be counted as a miss.

 

39 words.

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A round that leaves the shooters hand or gun is "dead". If desired, replace it from your person or a staged location if required by stage instruction. The use of a "dead" round will be counted as a miss.

 

39 words.

 

Once you pick up that dead round it becomes live................NO MISS!

 

 

PS: I hope this rule goes away

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For those worried about degrading safety, please read post #27.

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=243748#entry3180065

 

We need to ban live ammo on the shooting line. It is dangerous.

We are continually headed there... Minimum PF of 60 & 7/8oz low recoil 12G.....about equivalent to a 32ACP.

 

As far as dropped round? I don't see a problem, one way or the other. If passed, I will encourage all my competition to grope for the SG shell they dropped. ;)

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A round that leaves the shooters hand or gun is "dead". If desired, replace it from your person or a staged location if required by stage instruction. The use of a "dead" round will be counted as a miss.

 

39 words.

but that is not the current rule! a dead round used is counted as a hit!

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Okay, it would allowed, would anybody ever do it? Have you ever seen that? I sure haven't. What shooter, in their right mind, would take the time to go all the way down to the ground to retrieve a dropped shotgun round when there are more right there at their waist. And I specify shotgun round because a jacked live rifle round is going to be a yard or more BEHIND the shooter. No way on Earth someone's going to try to retrieve one of those. What I'm saying is that this rule REALISTICALLY only removes the penalty for plucking up a shotgun round from a table or shelf or bale of hay that's sitting right there in front of the shooter. And there's really no increased chance of breaking the 170 when doing that. If they do, there's already a penalty in place to deal with it.

I'll play devil's advocate just for a minute here, though I really do want the rule to go away. But I actually grabbed a shell off the ground once. It was about my 3rd or 4th shoot. The stage had 14+ shotgun knockdowns. I had a 6 shell slide, and 2 shells in each of my vest pockets. That's exactly 14, and I dropped one so I reached down safely, watched the muzzle of my shotgun and did not break the 170 while doing it very carefully, and retrieved the round only to be told that I couldn't do it and to drop it. So I got a MSV and a miss on that stage and took a hell of a lot of time to do it. I went out and bought a bandoleer after that match and have never had that problem again. I've also since added spurs and realized you can't squat down to retrieve anything comfortable with spurs on.

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A round that leaves the shooters hand or gun is "dead". If desired, replace it from your person or a staged location if required by stage instruction. The use of a "dead" round will be counted as a miss.

 

39 words.

 

Pecos Pete,

 

Unfortunately, that doesn't solve it, because of that "staged location" thing you mention. For example, shotgun must be loaded using shells staged in the box on the bar. I reach in, grab one, get it about six inches above the box, it slips out of my hand, and drops right back into the box. Can I still use that round? Not according to your rule, because you say that the specific dropped round cannot be used. How do I tell which one that is? If you want to allow it's use, you need to add an amendment, saying that rounds dropped back to their original location may be used, like we have now. Or is six inches above the box even far enough to be a "drop"? How about if my hand was still below the top of the box when the shell came out? So the definition keeps getting longer and longer, until you reach the almost un-interpretable rule we have now.

 

Kid Hawkins

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I had to call a shooter on it this past weekend. SG was laying on table and shooter missed the port to the high side so the round was sitting on the table right next to the gun. What made it worse was he didn't hear the TO try to stop him and then at the end of the stage didn't remember doing it. Any way not a good rule and needs to be gone.

 

I think this illustrates another reason to get rid of the rule. From the way Most Wanted describes this, I might be inclined to say the shooter "placed" the round on the table, which would make it legal to retrieve. As I'm imagining it, the round was in the shooter's control until it went onto the table, it just didn't go where he intended. Not at all disagreeing with the call, I wasn't there to see it, just saying it's one more ambiguous part of a way-too-complicated rule.

 

Kid Hawkins

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Who cares, it's in the box. This type of nit picking any rule is in large part the difference in todays game and yesterdays. More people should take heart to the badge IJAFG

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Do away with the rule and require anyone who dreams of picking up a timer to take RO refresher courses once every two years so they will know where they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to be doing.

 

Copied and pasted from the other dropped round thread:

Perhaps my biggest pet peeve is CROs who do not understand where they are supposed to be in regard to the shooter. "They are to be within an arm's length" (Page 5, item 4, RO1). They are to "anticipate what the shooter may do next" (Page 4, item 2, RO1) so they can intervene if needed. Any "fast" shooter would know it is waaaaaay slow to go the ground instead of the belt which would indicate that these shooters were not exactly Speedy Gonzales. To me this falls under "Assess the shooter’s condition" (Page 3, RO1). IMO, if someone can't head off a slow, perhaps inexperienced, shooter from unsafe or overly inefficient actions, they need to find a another job.

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Who cares, it's in the box. This type of nit picking any rule is in large part the difference in todays game and yesterdays. More people should take heart to the badge IJAFG

 

I would care, the first time I received a penalty from someone, because your rule as written says I can't use it. Which is what happens when a rule is ambiguous.

 

I'm not exactly sure what your last sentence means. I hope you're not questioning my or anyone else's character or commitment to the game, simply because we might have different opinions on the best way to write a rule. We're having a calm, mature discussion on how to improve the game, so name-calling is silly.

 

KH

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What about rounds that you remove from a firearm clearing a jam? Are they dead or may the shooter retrieve them and use them?

 

This is why I vote to get rid of this unnecessary rule.

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It's a stupid rule that needs to go away. Rules that penalize someone for an action that in itself isn't unsafe, but might cause another action that might be unsafe are no different than the silly gun control laws we deal with. Gun control laws that are of the mindset of penalizing everyone because of what some criminal might do is wrong and in the end isn't going to stop the criminal anyway.

In this case we have unsafe people doing unsafe things.They should be penalized for the unsafe things they do. Not penalize everyone for what the unsafe person might do.

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I would care, the first time I received a penalty from someone, because your rule as written says I can't use it. Which is what happens when a rule is ambiguous.

 

I'm not exactly sure what your last sentence means. I hope you're not questioning my or anyone else's character or commitment to the game, simply because we might have different opinions on the best way to write a rule. We're having a calm, mature discussion on how to improve the game, so name-calling is silly.

 

KH

It's

Just

a

F#$%ing

Game

 

In case you hadn't figured it out.....I find it to be a solid platform to support opinion of merit.

 

Come out and shoot some time!

 

Stan

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