Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

Please vote for the dropped round rule to go away!

Recommended Posts

Please oh please vote for the dropped round rule to go away!!

 

This is perhaps the rule that is miss called than any other rule. ie, at what point is it a penalty, when touched? when used? caught in mid air? touched and moved? is it then an illegal round and called a miss too?

 

Now, before you go giving answers, I KNOW the correct answer, but I've seen it called wrong more than called correctly.

 

Just, Please tell your TG to make it go away!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If someone has a pistol, shotgun or rifle in hand and they drop a round on the ground, it could be dangerous if they bend down to pick it up especially if the gun in hand is loaded. That's probably why the rule exists in the first place. :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If someone has a pistol, shotgun or rifle in hand and they drop a round on the ground, it could be dangerous if they bend down to pick it up especially if the gun in hand is loaded. That's probably why the rule exists in the first place. :o

that is why the 170 rule exists. Myself I've never seen anyone break the 170 when retrieving a dropped round.

 

and Wild Bunch allows it and has not had a single problem.

 

Maybe we need to add a rule that says you can't bend over with a firearm in hand,,,,, no, not really!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If someone has a pistol, shotgun or rifle in hand and they drop a round on the ground, it could be dangerous if they bend down to pick it up especially if the gun in hand is loaded. That's probably why the rule exists in the first place. :o

 

If someone does something UNSAFE with a firearm "in hand" (e.g. breaking the 170º rule), there are already rules/penalties in place that cover those violations.

 

SAFELY retrieving a dropped/ejected rounds should NOT be penalized.

As CC stated in the OP...this is a rule that has so many variables in application and enforcement that it is useless.

 

Some TOs "make the call" if the shooter even TOUCHES a dropped round...

others only assess the MSV if the shooter actually USES the retrieved round.

...neither of which is the proper application of the rule/penalty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RE: Retrieval of dropped rounds that land ON THE GROUND (copied from comments posted on the TG Wire):

 

The most recent arguments regarding retrieval "from the ground" have been addressed by noting that rounds may be PLACED on the ground and subsequently retrieved during a stage (in a situation where there might not be a prop available for staging)...so why restrict retrieval of DROPPED rounds that end up at boot-sole level?

 

It has also been pointed out that the ONLY time a shooter would be likely to bend over to retrieve a dropped/ejected round (if even possible when wearing a double gun belt and a shotgun ammo belt), would be in a situation where the shooter is going for a clean match and the dropped round (e.g. SG ammo or an ejected rifle round) is the ONLY round available to finish the stage clean. Otherwise, the shooter is more likely to make the more sensible choice of simply getting another round from his/her belt.

 

The concern and consternation regarding a shooter bending over and either breaking the 170º with long guns or dumping revolvers out of holsters is unfounded, IMO.

IF it does happen on that rare occasion in which the shooter only has that one round left, it would be up to the shooter to retrieve it SAFELY, without committing another more serious (SDQ or even MDQ) infraction while doing so.

 

This MSV for retrieval is an unnecessary "pre-emptive" rule/penalty that goes against the natural tendency that most people have to pick up something that they drop in the middle of using it (unless trained to do otherwise).
Almost every
MSV penalty imposed for "retrieval of dropped/ejected ammo" did NOT (obviously) involve a DQ for a break of the 170º, sweeping other posse members, or dropped firearms.

And let's just leave the "ground", deck, boardwalk, etc. question completely out of it.

That, IMO, is a "red herring" used by some clubs' TGs to justify voting against the deletion of the penalty for retrieval.

As previously stated, who would even THINK of going down to boot sole level if they have any rounds left in their ammo belt/pouch/bandolier?

If a shooter is unable to retrieve dropped/ejected ammo SAFELY (i.e. without violation any of the other rules it supposedly prevents), then the appropriate penalty for THAT violation would apply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had to call a shooter on it this past weekend. SG was laying on table and shooter missed the port to the high side so the round was sitting on the table right next to the gun. What made it worse was he didn't hear the TO try to stop him and then at the end of the stage didn't remember doing it. Any way not a good rule and needs to be gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This rule is analogous to current attempts at increased gun control. A rule/law to prevent you from doing something that is already against the law/rules. Let's get rid of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It needs to go aeay for all the reasons listed above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a time when I thought there should be limits on where a round could be retrieved from...

 

That time has passed.

 

Make the rule go away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheyenne made the right request and Pale Wolf has given a thorough explanation of both the lack of need for such a rule and the presence of other rules that address all legitimate safety concerns. This is nothing but a rule that imposes a penalty because you MIGHT do something deserving of a safety penalty. No more necessary or sensible than a rule imposing a penalty when you come to the line because you drop a gun leave a round on the carrier. Let's take the opportunity to get this superfluous and regularly misapplied rule out of the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This rule is analogous to current attempts at increased gun control. A rule/law to prevent you from doing something that is already against the law/rules. Let's get rid of it.

That's a good analogy. Maybe enough people will see it that way and vote to remove it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If someone does something UNSAFE with a firearm "in hand" (e.g. breaking the 170º rule), there are already rules/penalties in place that cover those violations.

 

SAFELY retrieving a dropped/ejected rounds should NOT be penalized.

As CC stated in the OP...this is a rule that has so many variables in application and enforcement that it is useless.

 

Some TOs "make the call" if the shooter even TOUCHES a dropped round...

others only assess the MSV if the shooter actually USES the retrieved round.

...neither of which is the proper application of the rule/penalty.

 

VOTE NO!!

 

It IS a safety issue, and (correct!) there are penalties out there to cover safety infractions.

 

The real issue is:

WHY does this "vote Yes to abolish" the dropped round penalty have a following at all!?

 

Answer? I can't answer..... The only conceivable rationale that makes sense to me is that it may occasionally keep someone's time lower than it otherwise would have been. But, in doing so, it introduces another possibility/probability that a safety infraction will be incurred by a shooter reaching for a dropped round.

 

Given that, I believe we are nudging the scales of probability ever further toward a certainty, that a shooting injury or death will occur. WHY take that risk? So some 9-second wizard may keep his numbers low should he drop a round? I just do not buy into the thought process that being able to shoot at warp speed automatically imbues someone with enhanced intelligence, or common sense, or protection against making an adrenalin-fueled error while scrambling for a dropped round, or guaranteeing they will never commit a safety infraction.

 

Leave the rule as it stands and Vote NO!

 

And, PWB, I think it bad form for you, or any of the Territorial Governors, to use these Forums to involve yourselves in these debates, given your unique and esteemed stature in this game. Further, PWB, I believe your arguments favoring the repeal of the dropped round rules are flawed (again, my opinion).

Best to all,

- Cat Brules -

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if it does not become a no call it should be made a procedural. Calling it a minor safety when there is nothing inherently unsafe about doing it is just silly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if it does not become a no call it should be made a procedural. Calling it a minor safety when there is nothing inherently unsafe about doing it is just silly.

Best I've heard it put!

OLG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

...

And, PWB, I think it bad form for you, or any of the Territorial Governors, to use these Forums to involve yourselves in these debates, given your unique and esteemed stature in this game. Further, PWB, I believe your arguments favoring the repeal of the dropped round rules are flawed (again, my opinion).

 

Your BS opinion is noted and rejected out of hand.

Information posted on the various forums by me or any other Territorial Governor or member of the Range Operations Committee is primarily for informational purposes regarding the reasons the issue is on the Agenda ballot in the first place (for the nth time). Last time I looked, that is one of the primary functions listed in the "job description".

As a SASS member, I am also allowed to post my personal opinion on ANY issues up for discussion or vote.

I'll waste no more of my time responding to your personal attacks.

PWB

Best to all,

- Cat Brules -

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fondly recall a time from before this rule. Witness to many a graceful catch of an ejected round... and some not so graceful ones. Not once did I observe a break of other more serious safety infractions. But, those that feared same swayed the day. Redundancy "may" be a good thing in certain areas, not so much in others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

VOTE NO!!

 

It IS a safety issue, and (correct!) there are penalties out there to cover safety infractions.

 

The real issue is:

WHY does this "vote Yes to abolish" the dropped round penalty have a following at all!?

 

Answer? I can't answer..... The only conceivable rationale that makes sense to me is that it may occasionally keep someone's time lower than it otherwise would have been. But, in doing so, it introduces another possibility/probability that a safety infraction will be incurred by a shooter reaching for a dropped round.

 

Given that, I believe we are nudging the scales of probability ever further toward a certainty, that a shooting injury or death will occur. WHY take that risk? So some 9-second wizard may keep his numbers low should he drop a round? I just do not buy into the thought process that being able to shoot at warp speed automatically imbues someone with enhanced intelligence, or common sense, or protection against making an adrenalin-fueled error while scrambling for a dropped round, or guaranteeing they will never commit a safety infraction.

 

Leave the rule as it stands and Vote NO!

 

And, PWB, I think it bad form for you, or any of the Territorial Governors, to use these Forums to involve yourselves in these debates, given your unique and esteemed stature in this game. Further, PWB, I believe your arguments favoring the repeal of the dropped round rules are flawed (again, my opinion).

Best to all,

- Cat Brules -

Not only does the "vote yes to abolish" have a following, that following is in the majority. At least the last time this vote came up. Nothing you said can even remotely be construed as a fact. It's just an opinion coming out of your fourth point of contact. The facts are that wild bunch allows it and people aren't getting blown to smithereens on a regular basis. What you and a vocal minority are for is more duplication of safety rules. So where should that end? There is a very slim possibility that a gun can go off at the loading table, despite all the safety protocols in place, so let's ban loading there. Now we load on the line just to be safe. Might as well unload there too. Should we be wearing holsters? It seems dangerous due to breaking the 170 rule temporarily. Let's just stage those pistols instead. How about we just do away with live ammo while at it. Heck, why not just all stay home in bed sunday mornings? That probably is the safest thing to do. I'll skip the shower too because I could slip in there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fondly recall a time from before this rule. Witness to many a graceful catch of an ejected round... and some not so graceful ones. Not once did I observe a break of other more serious safety infractions. But, those that feared same swayed the day. Redundancy "may" be a good thing in certain areas, not so much in others.

You know, now that I think about it, every time I have seen someone break the traveling rule they have been standing. Maybe if we make it a minor safety to shoot while standing we can eliminate some of the traveling infractions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

It IS a safety issue, and (correct!) there are penalties out there to cover safety infractions.

 

 

 

Yep, it is. As has been pointed out and you even acknowledged, there are already rules covering the possible safety infractions that may occur when retrieving dropped ammo. So I disagree with you, the REAL issue is, why do we have a 100% redundant rule? What possible purpose does it serve? Capt Bill Burt gave the best analogy, somebody won't follow the law so what do we propose? More laws. Seems a bit silly to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not only does the "vote yes to abolish" have a following, that following is in the majority. At least the last time this vote came up. Nothing you said can even remotely be construed as a fact. It's just an opinion coming out of your fourth point of contact. The facts are that wild bunch allows it and people aren't getting blown to smithereens on a regular basis. What you and a vocal minority are for is more duplication of safety rules. So where should that end? There is a very slim possibility that a gun can go off at the loading table, despite all the safety protocols in place, so let's ban loading there. Now we load on the line just to be safe. Might as well unload there too. Should we be wearing holsters? It seems dangerous due to breaking the 170 rule temporarily. Let's just stage those pistols instead. How about we just do away with live ammo while at it. Heck, why not just all stay home in bed sunday mornings? That probably is the safest thing to do. I'll skip the shower too because I could slip in there.

Dang it!!! You beat me to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

actually should this silly rule fail to be thrown out, I would beseech the Wild Bunch to throw it out.

 

Can anyone actually state a case where the 170 was broken by someone catching or retrieving a dropped round, Why Cat, you should have plenty since you are so adamant that it stay a rule.

 

AND, it is actually faster for someone to go to the belt for a round instead of picking it up off the table or else where, so even that argument is nothing but pure nonsense! I wanted to say that in big red letters, but that wudn't be approved of!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

VOTE NO!!

 

It IS a safety issue, and (correct!) there are penalties out there to cover safety infractions.

 

The real issue is:

WHY does this "vote Yes to abolish" the dropped round penalty have a following at all!?

 

Answer? I can't answer..... The only conceivable rationale that makes sense to me is that it may occasionally keep someone's time lower than it otherwise would have been. But, in doing so, it introduces another possibility/probability that a safety infraction will be incurred by a shooter reaching for a dropped round.

 

Given that, I believe we are nudging the scales of probability ever further toward a certainty, that a shooting injury or death will occur. WHY take that risk? So some 9-second wizard may keep his numbers low should he drop a round? I just do not buy into the thought process that being able to shoot at warp speed automatically imbues someone with enhanced intelligence, or common sense, or protection against making an adrenalin-fueled error while scrambling for a dropped round, or guaranteeing they will never commit a safety infraction.

 

Leave the rule as it stands and Vote NO!

 

And, PWB, I think it bad form for you, or any of the Territorial Governors, to use these Forums to involve yourselves in these debates, given your unique and esteemed stature in this game. Further, PWB, I believe your arguments favoring the repeal of the dropped round rules are flawed (again, my opinion).

Best to all,

- Cat Brules -

You have a right to your opinion, that's for sure. I have a right to think you're full of it.

 

So Pale Wolf gets to work for free, acquire a tremendous amount of expertise on the rules, and shooting in general, and you think it's 'bad form' for him to share his knowledge, and insights with the rest of us? Further you think that people who buy life memberships and donate their time and effort to serve as Territorial Governors should be rewarded by having their voices silenced?

 

The most amazing thing to me of all is that you have the audacity to question the arguments of someone who clearly is far more familiar with the game and the rules than you are. You're going on my ignore list, where you will currently be the sole resident.

 

I would further express my opinion of you and your opinion, but I don't want to force Allie to take measures against me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a dumb rule and should be sent away into the night........ If I can pick up a round I laid on the table why can't I pick up the round I dropped beside it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

There was a time when I thought there should be limits on where a round could be retrieved from...

 

That time has passed.

 

Make the rule go away.

And… Make it mandatory to retrieve!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We know that safety can be compromised any time we break the 170 rule.

 

In rather rare cases, when a person retrieves a dropped round they MAY break the actual safety rule. So penalize on the possibility that the person May break the 170 - before they actually break that rule.

 

Following that logic, we should add a few more rules

1. You get a minor safety anytime you loose control of a round - either dropped or ejected. Because that could lead you to try to retrieve said round.

 

2. Since the cause of the drop is that you bring cartridges to the line, we should have a rule against bringing live rounds to the line.

 

Now I will feel so much safer. How about you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just don't see where this is such a big deal. If you drop a round or fling one out of your rifle that sucker is dead. Pull another and move on. Dosen't mater if it lands on a prop, the ground or caught in mid air. It's dead. I like the rule and I don't care what they do in other games. This is a cowboy gunfight and we ain't got time to rake the grass looking for a lost round. Yes I have dropped sg shells and spit live rounds out of my rifle. Evan been caught with no spare to make it up. My fault completely.

Leave the rule in place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. . . . . blah, blah, blah, blah . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

Leave the rule as it stands and Vote NO!

 

And, PWB, I think it bad form for you, or any of the Territorial Governors, to use these Forums to involve yourselves in these debates, given your unique and esteemed stature in this game. Further, PWB, I believe your arguments favoring the repeal of the dropped round rules are flawed (again, my opinion).

Best to all,

- Cat Brules -

 

 

Maybe it's just me, but I would truly like to see PHANTOM reply to this post, as only he can.

 

Oy

 

CZX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please oh please vote for the dropped round rule to go away!!

 

This is perhaps the rule that is miss called than any other rule. ie, at what point is it a penalty, when touched? when used? caught in mid air? touched and moved? is it then an illegal round and called a miss too?

 

Now, before you go giving answers, I KNOW the correct answer, but I've seen it called wrong more than called correctly.

 

Just, Please tell your TG to make it go away!!!

Why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why?

 

Did you read post #6?

 

...or any of the other posts related to WHY??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Yep, it is. As has been pointed out and you even acknowledged, there are already rules covering the possible safety infractions that may occur when retrieving dropped ammo. So I disagree with you, the REAL issue is, why do we have a 100% redundant rule? What possible purpose does it serve? Capt Bill Burt gave the best analogy, somebody won't follow the law so what do we propose? More laws. Seems a bit silly to me.

How about a recognition that we are dealing with safety rules concerning the discharge of firearms. A flustered shooter picking up a dead round he has just jacked out of his rifle might shoot somebody in his confusion. That is a damn good reason for redundant rules. The current rule is simple and easy to understand. You drop a shotgun shell and it is rolling around on the table in front of you or on the ground, it is dead. You don't have to think about figuring out where that shell is going to end up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Did you read post #6?

 

...or any of the other posts related to WHY??

I have read the arguments and find all of them unpersuasive. So do all of the shooters I have talked to about the proposed rule. The idea that you can stage ammunition on the ground is not the same as mucking around trying to find a jacked round. The current rule is simple and easy to understand and it is safe. The proposed rule isn't. For the life of all of us regular shooters out here we can't figure out what real problem you big dogs are trying to fix. Any shooter going to the line can and should carry extra ammunition. If some shooter has failed to carry extra to the line, I strike the balance on him not having a clean match when compared the danger posed by him bumble fumbling on the ground with loaded guns in hand. This is a game, but it should be a safe game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This rule is analogous....

Your use of high-falutin words will impress no one here......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bart - I saw a shooter at PoP lose a category state championship over picking up a dropped shotgun shell on a table. Yes, he should have known better, but picking up that dropped shell posed no safety hazard what so ever.

 

Should the rule be taken away, the biggest change I see is that some folks will be picking up rounds off tables, very very few, if any will be going to the ground to retrieve dropped rounds.

 

I am a regular shooter and know a bunch who think as I do that it's time for the rule to go away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.