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BJT

Shooting on the move

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So, are we gonna have to have a foot watcher in addition to loading table person, unloading table person, TO, three spotters, and brass picker? Gonna get awful crowded up near the shooter!

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Now I feel bad. All those people told me, "Phantom's creepy." And I told them you weren't. Now you say you are creepy?

Yea...I'm a Creepy Squirrel on Crack!

 

:blink:

 

There might be a need for an electronic solution for monitoring foot movement...I'll start working on it.

 

:mellow:

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Two feet, two foot watchers. You can't be expected to watch two feet at the same time.

 

I can hear the discussion: "My foot was moving when I could hear him shooting, was yours?" :blink:

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Yea...I'm a Creepy Squirrel on Crack!

 

:blink:

 

 

 

There might be a need for an electronic solution for monitoring foot movement...I'll start working on it.

 

:mellow:

We're gonna need some laser beams.

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Quite a few years ago I was shooting in a State Championship match. Pulled my pistol at the wrong window and cocked it. RO caught it so I made a giant move with one foot and shot the correct targets through the next window, clean which was the last stage and I thought I was clean for the match. I was headed to the unloading table and a shooter that was not a match official made a big ruckus to the RO and said I lifted my heel on one boot on the fixed foot and that meant that I violated the basketball rule. RO asked if any spotters saw it, they said no, so he went with the posse members view and gave me a penalty. I challenged the call to the Posse Marshall and he just went with the RO call, so I escalated it to the Match director. He called the spotters and RO together and asked if any of them were watching my feet and they all said no, so he reversed the call. After the match director made the call, He then found the posse member that made the ruckus and told him next time to stay quiet unless there was an imminent safety issue. He was not happy that he was being ignored and over ruled. Lesson learned was that even when shooter makes a big leg stretch while shooting, RO and spotters are not likely looking at shooter's feet.

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We're gonna need some laser beams.

That's what I was thinkin'...

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The laughable part is that there are those who feel that making a big stretch and shooting in a likely off balance stance is somehow safer than (gasp) walking to the next window to take the shot.

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The laughable part is that there are those who feel that making a big stretch and shooting in a likely off balance stance is somehow safer than (gasp) walking to the next window to take the shot.

Or doing a mad dash to another shooting position.

 

I really think this is a solution looking for a problem. I respect the folks that are trying to clarify the rule...but I must be reeeeeal dense here cuz I don't get it.

 

Luckily the situation that would benefit by shooting on the move rarely come up...

 

Perhaps just ridding the rules of mention of the basketball rule might help. Cuz if the rule truly is a "Basketball Travel" rule, then you can move an shoot...just like they do in Basketball...it's called Dribbling - bounce ball, change your pivot foot, bounce the ball, change your pivot foot. Of course we never see traveling in Pro Basketball now do we... :huh:

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You guys could screw up a game of hokey pokie!

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I'm thinking..(yeah, i know, i brag)
That the way the "travelling" rule is implemented(per shot) it is a "dribbling" rule. If it were "travelling" it would be interpreted as only allowed to shift one foot from the beginning to the end of a shooting sequence.

Perhaps it is time to rethink the rule?

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Howdy,

 

Anyone have videos showing foot movement that is now legal and illegal?

 

Keystone

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Yep, if it can't be seen fairly easily and with a good degree of accuracy, it should not be the basis of a penalty.

 

 

You mean like gunfighters not pulling both triggers at supposedly the same time? :wacko:

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Y'all remember when Gomer put a 'Citizens Arrest' on Barney for a U-Turn?

 

I can see it now, after a stage is finished, one of the spotters running across the stage hollerin......"Stage DQ.....Stage DQ. He moved a foot when he shot the SG......Stage DQ'.

 

 

..........Widder

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Let's be honest. The intent is to stop really coordinated and talented shooters from being able to out maneuver a rule. But by trying to rewrite the rule it is now making half of everything in movement appear to be illegal.

 

Why? I have no idea. But guessing some folks just do not like for someone to outsmart the rules.

 

I wish I was smart and coordinated enough to do it. But I am not.

 

So by my logic, this means Phantom is smarter than me, and that really hurts.

 

But at least I am not creepy.

JM

I'll have you know that there are many that DO think you are Creepy...like me...

 

:huh:

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I have no issue with shooting while on the move including the instantaneous slam firing of 97s, but I also believe it gives 97 shooters a measurable advantage over double shooters, for at least the top shooters in our sport. I am certainly not one of those top shooters and could care less. I would really like to hear from those top shooters using a double in categories allowing both a double and a 97. I consider a top shooter as one who has a legitimate chance of winning their category at WR, EOT or some of the larger Regional matches. How do you top double shooters feel about the shooting while on the move issue?

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Imo just allow movement. We have the 170 rule in place. If the fear is this is beyond some of the members ability and will lead to unsafe gun control. Then make the penalty for braking the 170 when moving a match DQ. The ones that are not capable probably won't try it until they are. Might help bring in the younger crowd to boot.

 

EMN

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Yep, if it can't be seen fairly easily and with a good degree of accuracy, it should not be the basis of a penalty.

You mean like gunfighters not pulling both triggers at supposedly the same time? :wacko:

 

Yes, exactly.

 

And I mean like speed traps on the road. Before radar, cops used to either have a section of roadway marked so they could slap a stop watch on a car as it went through the trap (hence the name), or they would pull out behind the speeder and with a calibrated speedometer (remember speedometer shops?) they would follow until they got a reliable reading of the speed.

 

Technology changed that, and cops can use a radar or laser gun on traffic in both directions on a road and have a data record and a photo of the car and usually the driver, while balancing a cup of coffee in their other hand. :lol: And, the incidence of folks trying to argue their way out of tickets has gone way down.

 

We need to be pretty sure we have our penalty system in this game calibrated to what the range officials can actually and reliabily sense (measure). If we don't, EVERYBODY will realize we are just giving out a particular type of penalty based on guess work, friend-of-the-shooter, or dislike of a particular rule.

 

We have gotten to that on the following areas now, where the shooters are faster than the Range officials eyeballs and ears:

* gunfighter double-firing

* complicated sweeps with optional orders

* moving while shooting

* and probably a few others.

 

We've resisted putting some technology in place to help (like video recording), because it would slow down matches. We've resisted other hardware (like All Knockdowns) because it is expensive to do and might slow down matches.

 

But we are now at the place where some folks complain that the matches take to long, and others recognize we are not accurate and consistent (between posses) on penalty assessments. And shooters are just getting faster, making the measuring of "clean" more difficult, so we have spotters just shrugging and giving clean because they don't know what really happened. We really do have to realize the situation we are in and pull our collective heads out of the sand.

 

Penalize only what you can measure, and where there is a clear reason to apply a penalty. Be careful what you measure.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

If you check what we do for big match Top Gun Shootoffs, you realize that for the shootoffs, we gave up having spotters other than to watch for "not enough shots fired" or "wrong gun sequence used" or "major safety violations." And, watching for misses on any stationary makeup targets used when a shooter misses a knockdown - which are never called anyway.

 

Misses are counted totally by number of knockdowns that did not go down. Targets for each type of gun are set so that there is no target order for the shooter to adhere to. Why? Because, in public view, we were making way too many spotting mistakes when watching our fastest shooters! And our own folks demanded we go to all-knockdowns for those shootoffs.

 

We might just learn from that, if we cared to!

 

GJ

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PS: It's never "Run and Gun". It's more like "Creep and Gun".

 

;)

 

To All. I am really glad we don't have Spelling Contests as side matches. It seems like in America we spend more time trying to circumvent the laws and rules than we do trying to follow them. If we don't like the rules of moving, why don't we write the stage procedures to avoid such political dissertations as we just read. If we are worrying about travelling or double dribbling why don't we do like the NCAA and NBA and ignore the violation as long as everyone is happily entertained.

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... If we don't like the rules of moving, why don't we write the stage procedures to avoid such political dissertations as we just read...

That was a popular concept at the TG Summit.

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Change the rule to allow shooting on the move like every other action shooting sport that I know of. The argument that I hear all the time is that SASS shooters are either too old to shoot on the move or too inexperienced. Anyone should know whether they can shoot while moving or not (while simultaneously hitting what they are shooting at.)

 

I've seen good shooters shoot the '97, taking one step after each shot. I presume the Powers That Be are trying to eliminate that action. (Why, I don't know.)

 

At the Siege at St Augustine, the Florida State Championship match, there was a stage where you had to move with the shotgun to the first position, shoot two, move to a second position, shoot two and move to a third position and shoot two. Under the new rule definition, I guess this would be illegal? Or maybe because it's possible to stop and shoot the movement would be legal. If so; How long to I have to stay stopped?

 

It's good to see Badlands Bud and BJT back on the Wire!

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The basic issue was someone walking (running) from position A to position B while firing their guns. They believed this was legal based on the premise that, while walking, at least one foot, and sometimes both, were planted all of the time thus adhering the rule as written, but not necessarily the intent of the rule. In the opinion of the majority of the TG'S present, this was not the way SASS intended for the rule to be interpreted. Apparently the Wild Bunch agreed.

 

Personally, I would have no issue with shooting on the move FOR THOSE QUALIFIED TO DO SO! That however brings about the next issue of who qualiies whom. I remember a time when in order to shoot Gunfighter, a person had to demonstrate that proficiency to the match director. Maybe that would be needed again.

 

Of course that brings up the issue of those who are so approved would have a distinct advantage over the rest and thus need a new category! Oh No! I remember this was discussed a few years ago with talk of an "Open Category", basically any gun, any style, any propellant, no age breaks, just all out run and gun. Best of the Best, Head to Head. Might be fun to watch but, like any change, it will take a concerted effort by those interested, for several years, before that kind of change "might" happen, maybe.

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The basic issue was someone walking (running) from position A to position B while firing their guns. They believed this was legal based on the premise that, while walking, at least one foot, and sometimes both, were planted all of the time thus adhering the rule as written, but not necessarily the intent of the rule. In the opinion of the majority of the TG'S present, this was not the way SASS intended for the rule to be interpreted. Apparently the Wild Bunch agreed.

 

Personally, I would have no issue with shooting on the move FOR THOSE QUALIFIED TO DO SO! That however brings about the next issue of who qualiies whom. I remember a time when in order to shoot Gunfighter, a person had to demonstrate that proficiency to the match director. Maybe that would be needed again.

 

Of course that brings up the issue of those who are so approved would have a distinct advantage over the rest and thus need a new category! Oh No! I remember this was discussed a few years ago with talk of an "Open Category", basically any gun, any style, any propellant, no age breaks, just all out run and gun. Best of the Best, Head to Head. Might be fun to watch but, like any change, it will take a concerted effort by those interested, for several years, before that kind of change "might" happen, maybe.

I've never seen anyone "Run" while shooting at a match...have you?????

 

Qualified?????

 

We let ANYONE that wants to shoot Gunfighter without any qualifications...you think moving while shooting has more potential for a boo-boo to happen????

 

Phantom

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It reminds me of something I saw yesterday. A non gunfighter shooting double duelist pulls the first pistol and fires and before the gun is empty he pulls his second revolver completely out of the holster. I see the to saw it but the other spotter didn't notice it. I call a p for shooting out of category the to agrees the others ask why he explains. The point being I saw it out of my periferal vision and it caught my attention enough to draw my focus to it over the targets and I said so.

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You guys could screw up a game of hokey pokie!

Damn I'm glad I just finished my coffee or it would have been all over the screen.

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Yes we do let anyone shoot gunfighter, now, but back in the day, you needed to being qualified to shoot gunfighter. In the July 1999 version of the Shooters Handbook, SASS deleted the requirement for the Qualification Card required to shoot Gunfighter. You know lots more of the oldtimers than I do, ask them about it. I got this information from PaleWolf Brunelle.

 

As to the issue at hand, I haven't SEEN anyone run while shooting SASS, but that is specifically the issue that was raised during the discussions at the TG meeting. The example I used was exactly the issue as presented. Apparantly, someone who is a top shooter, has done this or is doing this. I don't recall if they said he did it in a match or just practice, but is was the basis of the discussion.

 

I do believe that shooting on the move has a big potential for "Boo-Boo's" to happen. I have seen many a top shooter hit the dirt when running between positions, but many more average shooters slip and fall just moving between positions or step on an uneven spot or big rock and go down. The reality of this situation is that the Match Directors can totally prevent movement while shooting with appropraite stage design, so even if the rule were modified to allow movement, it would still be preventable if either the Match Director didn't want it or the Range Rules didn't allow it.

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Ide like to see the whole "basketball" rule go away!!

 

but then we can't even get enuff TGs to vote away the penalty for picking up dropped rounds... sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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As far as the whole safety argument goes, SASS used to allow shooting while moving. I would like to hear about some of the accidents that happened back then. How many people were shot as a result of allowing this.

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As far as the whole safety argument goes, SASS used to allow shooting while moving. I would like to hear about some of the accidents that happened back then. How many people were shot as a result of allowing this.

Hi Smokestack,

 

I remember (vaguely) the shooting box concept. You were allowed to move and shoot within a designated area. IIRC it went away when the Stage Conventions came into being. Or, maybe it was before that. :unsure: I asked what happened to that concept and am still waiting for an answer. PaleWolf are you out there?

 

I don't remember ever hearing about shooting accidents due to that concept.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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I joined in 01 and I've never heard of a shooting box concept.... may have been before then...

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Interesting reading... the "shooting box" concept went away when the first person tripped over it and there were the resultant confusion about whether you were "in" or "out" of the box if you were standing on the line... And I only recall one elderly gentleman tripping while moving... and he wasn't even trying to shoot while doing so... but hence the "Basketball" rule. I enjoyed more than one EOT where shootin' & movin' was kinda required if you were going to be competitive... and be quick about it also.

 

I find the discussion ... sort of falls into the category a Federal judge opined about, when asked about a particular subject... "I can't describe it, but I know when I see it!"

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Ide like to see the whole "basketball" rule go away!!

 

but then we can't even get enuff TGs to vote away the penalty for picking up dropped rounds... sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1.

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