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BJT

Shooting on the move

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I received an email clarifying two rules. One was shooting on the move, which appears to be outlawed after some decades of not being outlawed. But there is movement that is allowed.

 

"One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance."

 

So the gun has to be emptied with moving only one foot? Are stage directions that say fire 3 shots from window A and 2 from window B outlawed? How does this affect the 97? Is the shooter who only loads one in the chamber allowed to move between shots while the shooter loading two in the mag has to shoot two shots without moving? Does this impact the gunfighter shooting 5 shots from one position then shooting another 5 shots from another position? How well was this thought out? What was the point?

 

Thanks,

BJT

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I'll let someone smarter then me answer...

 

I just wanted to say HI BJT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Miss ya!!!!

 

Phantom

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Well, since the clarification needs some clarifying and a penalty for doing or not doing whatever this clarification clarifies.

 

My best guess is I don't know and what was the question.

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hmm, interested to know.

 

Had someone recently tell me that the new rules ---- (ooops, the new clarification of the rules :)) is that a '97 shooter can not move while loading and slam firing --- which we have done for years -- and which, I suspect might be near the center of BJT's question.

 

If so, the clarifers ;) may not have considered some of the related issues as BJT began to list.

 

 

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

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Phantom and Ray, good to hear from you. I need to WD-40 some guns and go shooting soon.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

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The appendix in the ROI Manual #11 explains firearms safe for movement

 

Charlie

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The appendix in the ROI Manual #11 explains firearms safe for movement

 

Charlie

Uhhhh...I'm sure BJT knows this...but there has been some discussion about moving and shooting lately... :o

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Good to hear from you BJT. It figures you'd weigh in on an issue that causes another issue. I like it.

 

Fillmore

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Phantom and Ray, good to hear from you. I need to WD-40 some guns and go shooting soon.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

Ah yea, WD-40....now we are talkin proper lubrication for lightnin fast guns..... ;)

 

My Best Regards to you, BJT.

 

I still been hangin around the Wire, tryin to help Phantomborg and Wed Wiver Way. I could have used your help.

 

 

..........Widder

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How well was this thought out?

 

Thanks,

BJT

I hesitate to even respond and will probably regret doing so. But actually quite a bit of thought was put into it. Nobody that I know of involved with any of the inter workings of this game (ROC, match directors, etc.) make decisions on a whim.

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Sorry for the wall of text, but I just want to get down the relevant information.

 

From the main thread on clarifications:

 

"Shooting on the move:

  • The rules for movement (Basketball Traveling rule) does not relate to shooting on the move . Shooting on the move is expressly disallowed. The "basketball traveling rule" was originally intended to pertain to a competitor who inadvertently cocks a firearm in a position other than the designated firing position or was moving both feet whilst engaging targets at the firing position. One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance. The Basketball Traveling rule was not intended to relate to multiple movements between shots (e.g. Shooting multiple shots during continuous movement.)

I received an email clarifying two rules. One was shooting on the move, which appears to be outlawed after some decades of not being outlawed. But there is movement that is allowed.

 

"One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance."

 

So the gun has to be emptied with moving only one foot? Are stage directions that say fire 3 shots from window A and 2 from window B outlawed? How does this affect the 97? Is the shooter who only loads one in the chamber allowed to move between shots while the shooter loading two in the mag has to shoot two shots without moving? Does this impact the gunfighter shooting 5 shots from one position then shooting another 5 shots from another position? How well was this thought out? What was the point?

 

Thanks,

BJT

 

 

The appendix in the ROI Manual #11 explains firearms safe for movement

Charlie

From Range Operations Basic Safety Course Version 19.8, p. 15, 16, Appendix A:

11. Safe conditions of firearms during a course of fire are as follows:

• Revolver(s)

Revolver(s)
Safe for movement in hand, while holstering, and safe to leave the shooter’s hand.
• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber,
• Hammer fully down on an expended round (may not be originally staged in this
condition but may be restaged in this condition).
• While the above restrictions apply, there are additional considerations for the
Gunfighter. When shooting “Gunfighter Style,” a gunfighter may not holster revolvers
with the intent to engage another revolver sequence. Once cocked, all rounds
are to be expended prior to holstering unless the revolvers were drawn at the wrong
time or a revolver/ammunition malfunction has occurred. Physical stage design may
allow a competitor shooting “Gunfighter Style” to stage or restage revolvers between
firearm sequences.
Rifle
(snip for relevance)
Safe for movement rifle in hand only
• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed
• Action open, round on carrier or in chamber
Shotgun
(snip for relevance)
Safe for movement shotgun in hand only
• Action open, round in chamber or on carrier
• Hammer(s) fully down on empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed.

Upon examining the related rules, clarifications, and questionable scenarios, I am unable to find a more perfect analogy for the situation created by this clarification than the gun laws in my own misguided home state of California. As near as I can tell, for all appearances, intents, and purposes, this most recent clarification is the result of a governing body seeing an action which it does not approve of, without knowing why, and without the understanding of the action/item being regulated, the participation/industry practices, or even the mechanics of the rule/legislation's interaction with the target of the regulation, much less coherence with existing regulations. Rather than attempting to correct this ignorance in the hope of either understanding that such a regulation is unnecessary or creating a regulation which is internally consistent, coherent, and reasonable, this governing body has simply created a regulation and insisted upon adherence to it, while those who are struggling to comply with it are left dumbfounded as to what it means and how it applies to them.

 

This analogy is further perfected in the views of those who are not bound by these regulations. For years I have heard and read gun owners in free states extol the virtues of simply leaving California for a place without such silly laws. Similarly, I have heard and read participants in other action shooting sports (some with even more expansive rule books than our own) proclaim loudly that the rules in SASS are silly, and that it really isn't a shooting sport, but more of a costume contest with guns on.

 

Myself, I have rejected both of these views. I have faith that organizations such as shooting sports and societies are in constant motion, but that there is an equilibrium. As I have been gradually growing more convinced that the pendulum has swung as far as it will in my home state, and that it must swing back at some point, I am convinced that this is simply the pendulum swinging away from equilibrium in SASS. It may take months, years, or even decades, but I have faith that the pendulum will swing back eventually, and we will return to some semblance of equilibrium.

 

I'll still attend matches (time and money permitting) and follow the rules, just as I still sell guns in California and adhere to the law. I will miss those who choose to leave my favorite game in the face of silly rules, just as I miss those who have chosen to leave my favorite state in the face of silly laws. I do worry though, that it is much easier and cheaper to pick up and move on to another game than it is to pick up and move on to another state. The easier it is to leave, the smaller the inconvenience that can cause flight.

 

Badlands (what might be an alternate login for TJB as much as I've been shooting lately) Bud

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I hesitate to even respond and will probably regret doing so. But actually quite a bit of thought was put into it. Nobody that I know of involved with any of the inter workings of this game (ROC, match directors, etc.) make decisions on a whim.

 

In that case Deuce, I have no doubt my questions can be answered quickly and make it crystal clear even to me.

 

Cheers,

BJT

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P.S.

 

HOWDY Y'ALL TO EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD! This is quite a little party we have in here.

 

Bud

 

Amen to that.

 

My reading enjoyment on this Wire has greatly increased this evening.

 

 

..........Widder

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P.S.

 

HOWDY Y'ALL TO EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD! This is quite a little party we have in here.

 

Bud

I'm getting the urge to sing "Memories"...

 

:o

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I thought about this more. Say a shooter shoots his rifle from position A he then moves to position B for five pistol shots. Moving left to right, he draws his cross draw on the move. He plants one foot at position B and takes a shot as his other foot comes to rest and finishes the five shots. After the shooting is over, the RO asks why he shot without both feet planted. Shooter says "Duh, it is faster". Is that moving for reasons other than "to adjust stance or correct balance" and thus a SDQ?

 

I see you out there Jimmy, saying I am over thinking this and of course it is not a SDQ. OK Jimmy, lets move this a little further.

 

There is a train car prop with five windows, stage instructions are to fire one round at the target from each window. If the answer to the question above is no SDQ and the same logic is applied to the train car, in what way is the shooter not moving and shooting?

 

Thanks,

BJT

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I'm thinking this is a old home week gathering. How about if Doc Shapiro chimes in on this. Or maybe Adirondack Jack. :)

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I am in total agreement with Bud and BJT. I thought I understood the old rule, and thought I understood the new rule on long guns, but the new,new long gun rule is going to cause problems IMHO. I an TOTALLY confused by the "clarification" on the basketball rule. What does it mean?? I sympathize with those writing rules as I wrote most of the WBAS rulebook, but this mess is obviously a rule looking for a reason.

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I'm thinking this is a old home week gathering. How about if Doc Shapiro chimes in on this. Or maybe Adirondack Jack. :)

That would be nice wouldn't it :) ...............just so long as Bisbey Joe don't show :o

 

I am in total agreement with Bud and BJT. I thought I understood the old rule, and thought I understood the new rule on long guns, but the new,new long gun rule is going to cause problems IMHO. I an TOTALLY confused by the "clarification" on the basketball rule. What does it mean?? I sympathize with those writing rules as I wrote most of the WBAS rulebook, but this mess is obviously a rule looking for a reason.

I agree...I thought this was all cleared up last year :wacko: , didn't know there was a problem with the basketball rule. I eagerly await a few easy to understand examples of what's a yea, and what's a nay ;) . Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Those of you who weren't at this years TG meeting are in a position that is not unlike our other voting venues. If you didn't vote then what gives you the ability to comment on the results of the vote. Deuce said it. This was discussed by the TG's. the ROC, and the Wild Bunch. We all left the room understanding what each of the "clarifications" meant. Only 1/3 +/- of the clubs were represented at the TG meeting. So that 1/3 voted on the rules and helped create these clarifications.

 

It doesn't say you can't move from A to B. It's saying that when one is moving your pistol, rifle, or shotgun can't be cocked and in battery, one foot better be planted. And the rules clearly say how you can move with a pistol, rifle or shotgun and not be penalized. This was stated in the above posts.

 

What the clarification was reacting to was shooters who were walking/running/skipping/hopping from A to B and shooting with no clear hesitation or foot planting before cocking or putting the rifle/shotgun into battery and then shooting. The TO's and others can't watch feet, what the shooter is doing, and all of the other responsibilities of the TO. I understand it as move as per the rules, plant one foot, cock pistol, put rifle or shotgun into battery, shoot, move per the rules, and repeat.

Ike

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Those of you who weren't at this years TG meeting are in a position that is not unlike our other voting venues. If you didn't vote then what gives you the ability to comment on the results of the vote. Deuce said it. This was discussed by the TG's. the ROC, and the Wild Bunch. We all left the room understanding what each of the "clarifications" meant. Only 1/3 +/- of the clubs were represented at the TG meeting. So that 1/3 voted on the rules and helped create these clarifications.

 

It doesn't say you can't move from A to B. It's saying that when one is moving your pistol, rifle, or shotgun can't be cocked and in battery, one foot better be planted. And the rules clearly say how you can move with a pistol, rifle or shotgun and not be penalized. This was stated in the above posts.

 

What the clarification was reacting to was shooters who were walking/running/skipping/hopping from A to B and shooting with no clear hesitation or foot planting before cocking or putting the rifle/shotgun into battery and then shooting. The TO's and others can't watch feet, what the shooter is doing, and all of the other responsibilities of the TO. I understand it as move as per the rules, plant one foot, cock pistol, put rifle or shotgun into battery, shoot, move per the rules, and repeat.

Ike

Oh sure...easy smeasy.

 

So when I cock my pistol and shoot it, during which time one foot was stationary, can I then take a step with one foot while cocking it????

 

Phantom

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Oh sure...easy smeasy.

 

So when I cock my pistol and shoot it, during which time one foot was stationary, can I then take a step with one foot while cocking it????

 

Phantom

 

I guess you need to fire two shoots without moving either feet then take a step. Otherwise you are walking.

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There are shooters that can have splits sooooooo fast with their SG's, that even while walking fast, those shots are made before that 'walking foot' comes off the ground.

 

Here is an example of splits that I have personally timed from shooters:

 

SxS .17

1887 . 45

1897 .37 (and if two are already in the magtube, this split time can be even in the .2 range

 

Heck, most folks can't even walk that fast.

 

 

..........Widder

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I'm thinking this is just like the gunfighter rule about distinguishing between two shots. Gonna all be up to the TO and spotters. :blink:

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Widder and Phantom ask interesting questions. I am as slow as a stop light when I am late to work but some folks are pretty fast. What is the time between the sear engaging and the shot fired by a talented pistolero? How hard would it be to place that interval during a time both feet are touching the ground while (dare I say it) moving? How hard would it be to tell if that was or was not done? So many questions.

 

Thanks,

BJT

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It doesn't say you can't move from A to B. It's saying that when one is moving your pistol, rifle, or shotgun can't be cocked and in battery, one foot better be planted.

 

Ike, one or two feet? If only one, then there is no change and movement is allowed. Tough to walk without planting the foot unless you are sliding or skipping, were folks doing that?

 

Cheers,

BJT

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Hi Folks,

 

If the TO is watching the shooter's guns and safely assisting... the counters are watching the targets, who will watch the feet. Not me, unless I'm in the peanut gallery. Then, I would be more likely to be counting shots than watching feet, if I was paying attention that closely.

 

Am I under thinking this or are others overthinking it? :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

 

PS I remember the train car fiasco and am glad to say that no one on our posse was in the 50% that got SDQs at that match.

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Hi Folks,

 

If the TO is watching the shooter's guns and safely assisting... the counters are watching the targets, who will watch the feet. Not me, unless I'm in the peanut gallery. Then, I would be more likely to be counting shots than watching feet, if I was paying attention that closely.

 

Am I under thinking this or are others overthinking it? :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

 

PS I remember the train car fiasco and am glad to say that no one on our posse was in the 50% that got SDQs at that match.

So you are in favor of allowing free movement while engaging targets then?

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Smokestack, maybe you read some other post, but I didn't see Allie saying that. She posed an excellent question, namely that if the impetus for this rule is that the TO cannot watch the shooter's feet and guns at the same time, what about that limitation on the TO's observational abilities is helped by this clarification? Enforcement of the rule would still require attention to the feet and firearm.

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Smokestack, maybe you read some other post, but I didn't see Allie saying that. She posed an excellent question, namely that if the impetus for this rule is that the TO cannot watch the shooter's feet and guns at the same time, what about that limitation on the TO's observational abilities is helped by this clarification? Enforcement of the rule would still require attention to the feet and firearm.

That is my point exactly. If we are to contend that it is impossible to watch the shooters feet in addition to our other chores it is illogical at best to try to place constraints on what the shooter is allowed to do with their feet. If free movement were allowed the TO and spotters would be better able to do their respective jobs.

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Yep, if it can't be seen fairly easily and with a good degree of accuracy, it should not be the basis of a penalty.

 

Either one end (no run-n-gun) or the other (run-n-gun, and penalize unsafe acts).

 

Good luck, GJ

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PS: It's never "Run and Gun". It's more like "Creep and Gun".

 

;)

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