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BJT

Shooting on the move

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The basketball rule is a good thing in a sport that does not allow shooting while moving, most shooting sports allow shooter to move while shooting some really want you too, part of the sport, I dont understand why folks want to dumb down what were doing even more.

Regards AO

 

AO,

 

I have said this for as long as I have been part of the SASS family. We continually lower the bar for some reason. Some say it's because we have a large part of our membership that is over the age of 60. Some say it's for "safety" reasons and that shooting and moving is dangerous.

 

I just recently attended and shot the Florida USPSA match. At least five folks on my "squad" where over the age of 60. I can tell you that these senior citizens can haul the damn mail and shoot at the same time while making it look easy. The guns they were using were mostly custom guns with a trigger pull in the one pound range.

 

It seems to me that if we raise the bar a bit, everyone will follow. Expect more and you'll get more. It adds to the problem of not being recognized as "real" shooters by the rest of the action shooting sports.

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Ide like to see the whole "basketball" rule go away!!

 

but then we can't even get enuff TGs to vote away the penalty for picking up dropped rounds... sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

or the empty round n a long gun GEEEZZZZZ!

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AO,

 

I have said this for as long as I have been part of the SASS family. We continually lower the bar for some reason. Some say it's because we have a large part of our membership that is over the age of 60. Some say it's for "safety" reasons and that shooting and moving is dangerous.

 

I just recently attended and shot the Florida USPSA match. At least five folks on my "squad" where over the age of 60. I can tell you that these senior citizens can haul the damn mail and shoot at the same time while making it look easy. The guns they were using were mostly custom guns with a trigger pull in the one pound range.

 

It seems to me that if we raise the bar a bit, everyone will follow. Expect more and you'll get more. It adds to the problem of not being recognized as "real" shooters by the rest of the action shooting sports.

 

yeah , I don't get it

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AO,

 

I have said this for as long as I have been part of the SASS family. We continually lower the bar for some reason. Some say it's because we have a large part of our membership that is over the age of 60. Some say it's for "safety" reasons and that shooting and moving is dangerous.

 

I just recently attended and shot the Florida USPSA match. At least five folks on my "squad" where over the age of 60. I can tell you that these senior citizens can haul the damn mail and shoot at the same time while making it look easy. The guns they were using were mostly custom guns with a trigger pull in the one pound range.

 

It seems to me that if we raise the bar a bit, everyone will follow. Expect more and you'll get more. It adds to the problem of not being recognized as "real" shooters by the rest of the action shooting sports.

And yet we scratch our head and wonder why most young shooters are more attracted to the other ACTION shooting sports. :wacko:

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Yes I do remember that PWB said that and have had conversations with him about it. PWB is a knowledgeable voice, but he is only one voice and other members of the ROC and WB disagreed with that position. At this point it makes no difference that shooting and moving "was allowed" it isn't anymore. The penalty is located in the same section that authorizes shooting while moving.

Cool so based on your previous comments there is no penalty.

 

Stan

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AO,

 

I have said this for as long as I have been part of the SASS family. We continually lower the bar for some reason. Some say it's because we have a large part of our membership that is over the age of 60. Some say it's for "safety" reasons and that shooting and moving is dangerous.

 

I just recently attended and shot the Florida USPSA match. At least five folks on my "squad" where over the age of 60. I can tell you that these senior citizens can haul the damn mail and shoot at the same time while making it look easy. The guns they were using were mostly custom guns with a trigger pull in the one pound range.

 

It seems to me that if we raise the bar a bit, everyone will follow. Expect more and you'll get more. It adds to the problem of not being recognized as "real" shooters by the rest of the action shooting sports.

Equating disallowing movement while shooting as lowering the bar assumes that moving while shooting is some how superior. In my mind one is not superior to the other. Just different.

How other shooting sports veiw us is immaterial to me. I'm having more FUN in this game than I ever had in any other. I have no use for games full of stuffy, fun sucking individuals.

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It's assuming folks cant move while shooting safely in my opinion is the lowering the bar (by not allowing at least some movement ), shooting while moving is harder to do well but I'm not just talking about that, its assuming folks cant pick up dropped shotgun shells safely so we need to keep them from doing it, that's lowering the bar.

 

 

AO

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

So if I stop bouncing the ball, touch it with both hands, then take a step without shooting, or passing what's the call? How about if I take a full step and move both feet? Now how about if I start to dribble again?

 

We used to look at where we needed to stop to see all of the targets to engage them so we wouldn't get called for traveling or double dribble...

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Moving with an open shotgun in a safe condition is analogous to moving while dribbling a basketball. It's allowed. Closing the shotgun is analogous to having picked up the dribble. You don't get to start moving or dribbling again in basketball or you get a penalty. You don't get to start moving again with the closed shotgun or you get a penalty. Same thing. The penalties in each game are well established. Turnover in basketball. SDQ in SASS. It's not about the dribbling, it's about having stopped dribbling.

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The bar has been lowered over the years(even bigger/closer targets, lighter ammo, horizontal staging, equipment modifications, relaxing safety rules, etc) so it is easier for the ever aging customer to hit the targets at speed. Shooting rapidly with minimal accuracy is part of the attraction, hearing the ding. Then add a gazillion categories and between everything, more customers can get trinkets. That is what the SASS customer wants and the entertainment formula has worked. Restricting the movement has always been there, so that has not lowered the bar. This running/walking and gunning has been a recent development by a few that have gotten bored with the continuous 10-10-4 simple sweeps, do not end on rifle, and have lawyered up and pushed the english language (a form of entertainment) for something different which adds a challenge plus gives then a possible advantage, run/walk and gunning. It is easy to eliminate the run/walk and gunning by how the stage is written. Write it so the shooter 'has to' get to the next shooting position before he can fire. Eliminate the 'anywhere between point A & B' verbage.

No argument that other shooting sports allow movement while shooting and it is safe and all that. Stationary shooting positions with the ability to anchor one foot (basketball rule) is just different and that is how the game was originally set up plus there is some stradagy (sp) for the shooter to have to decide just how far to run, or where to stage the next firearm to effectively shoot the targets w/o moving once he gets there.

I'll stop here but could go on.

Blastmaster

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Moving with an open shotgun in a safe condition is analogous to moving while dribbling a basketball. It's allowed. Closing the shotgun is analogous to having picked up the dribble. You don't get to start moving or dribbling again in basketball or you get a penalty. You don't get to start moving again with the closed shotgun or you get a penalty. Same thing. The penalties in each game are well established. Turnover in basketball. SDQ in SASS. It's not about the dribbling, it's about having stopped dribbling.

Uh, not quite. The analogy is made by virtue of the fact that once you fire the current bullet in the chamber (bounce ball), you can move your pivot foot....your analogy is better used for the other players that are not in possession of the ball.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

The analogy is made by virtue of the fact that once you fire the current bullet in the chamber (bounce ball), you can move your pivot foot...

In SASS that is correct. The hammer being down or being in a safe condition lets one (bounce ball) adjust their stance (move pivot foot). In basketball it would be traveling to move pivot foot. We would hate to lawyer this simple analogy to death as then one could get into the whole cocked at wrong location thing or...

 

Just another thing for stage writers to be aware of to keep everyone shooting the same match

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AO,

 

I have said this for as long as I have been part of the SASS family. We continually lower the bar for some reason. Some say it's because we have a large part of our membership that is over the age of 60. Some say it's for "safety" reasons and that shooting and moving is dangerous.

 

I just recently attended and shot the Florida USPSA match. At least five folks on my "squad" where over the age of 60. I can tell you that these senior citizens can haul the damn mail and shoot at the same time while making it look easy. The guns they were using were mostly custom guns with a trigger pull in the one pound range.

 

It seems to me that if we raise the bar a bit, everyone will follow. Expect more and you'll get more. It adds to the problem of not being recognized as "real" shooters by the rest of the action shooting sports.

+1

I shot my first non-CAS match awhile ago(a local version of IDPA) and was shocked when one of the top shooter started jogging toward the target while shooting. It looked very cool, four matches later I was confident enough to slowly walk and shoot my Glock at the same time. I would love to see some movement is SASS.

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Just a suggestion......

 

During a designated shooting string, one foot must remain stationary.

 

A designated shooting string - A number of rounds fired from one location from one gun as defined by stage instructions. Moving the stationary foot shall be defined as traveling and result in a Stage Disqualification.

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Like I thought. You can't show me the appropriate penalty for the indiscretion.

 

Until further clarification is provided all of this is a waste of electrons......

 

By the way PWB stated more than once that shooting and moving was allowed by the traveling rule. Guess you don't remember that.

 

Stan

 

 

 

AO,

 

I have said this for as long as I have been part of the SASS family. We continually lower the bar for some reason. Some say it's because we have a large part of our membership that is over the age of 60. Some say it's for "safety" reasons and that shooting and moving is dangerous.

 

I just recently attended and shot the Florida USPSA match. At least five folks on my "squad" where over the age of 60. I can tell you that these senior citizens can haul the damn mail and shoot at the same time while making it look easy. The guns they were using were mostly custom guns with a trigger pull in the one pound range.

 

It seems to me that if we raise the bar a bit, everyone will follow. Expect more and you'll get more. It adds to the problem of not being recognized as "real" shooters by the rest of the action shooting sports.

 

 

And yet we scratch our head and wonder why most young shooters are more attracted to the other ACTION shooting sports. :wacko:

+1....WT actual F? Downrange is Safe....the rest is just an argument.

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Just a suggestion......

 

During a designated shooting string, one foot must remain stationary.

 

A designated shooting string - A number of rounds fired from one location from one gun as defined by stage instructions. Moving the stationary foot shall be defined as traveling and result in a Stage Disqualification.

So how would that rule apply for this.....watch around 2:17

 

http://youtu.be/TB0haMghrIQ

 

 

 

Stan

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Stan,

 

That was cocking and de-cocking in the first location, then moving to the correct location and finishing the string. A big "P"

 

;)

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So how would that rule apply for this.....watch around 2:17

 

http://youtu.be/TB0haMghrIQ

 

 

 

Stan

Stan,

Thats perfectly legal even under new clarification as long as the stage description said shoot five at A then shoot five at B, he moved with the hammer down on a fired round which is legal for movement, unless I missed something feel free to point it out.

 

KK

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Stan,

Thats perfectly legal even under new clarification as long as the stage description said shoot five at A then shoot five at B, he moved with the hammer down on a fired round which is legal for movement, unless I missed something feel free to point it out.

 

KK

And what if no shooting position was designated for the rifle except that the shooter may not move forward of the props? Would that still be legal under the new clarification?

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And what if no shooting position was designated for the rifle except that the shooter may not move forward of the props? Would that still be legal under the new clarification?

Well never seen a stage without a shooting position designated, but I will bite, yes what he did was legal he was not walking and shooting he chose a position shot 5 rounds moved with the rifle hammer down on an empty then stopped shot 5 more. If he had shot 5 at the first postion then slowly walking as he shot the remaining 5 rounds, step shoot,step shoot then he would have aquired a penalty, thats the way I see it.

 

KK

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And what if no shooting position was designated for the rifle except that the shooter may not move forward of the props? Would that still be legal under the new clarification?

This is the Video that Phantom was talking about, it was some what legal but now it is not.

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=281700492018443

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No argument that other shooting sports allow movement while shooting and it is safe and all that. Stationary shooting positions with the ability to anchor one foot (basketball rule) is just different and that is how the game was originally set up plus there is some stradagy (sp) for the shooter to have to decide just how far to run, or where to stage the next firearm to effectively shoot the targets w/o moving once he gets there.

Not wholly correct. Please read thru this portion of the 1989 Shooter's Handbook.

 

SAFETY: First, Last & Always

 

Our sport, by its very nature, has the potential to be dangerous and a serious accident could occur. However, the history of SASS affiliated matches is accident free.

 

Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer. Each shooter's first responsibility is for his or her own safe conduct, but we expect all shooters to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe.

 

Any range officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed unsafe situation and it is expected that

 

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the matter will be quickly corrected and not repeated. Any argument by any shooter concerning the correction of a' safety related matter can be expected to result in that shooter's ejection from the range.

 

The following safety guidelines will be adhered to at all times:

 

0 All firearms will remain unloaded except while you are under the direct observation of a range officer on the firing line or in the loading area.

0 All loading and unloading will be conducted only in the designated areas. Percussion revolver shooters may charge five cylinders with ball and powder away from a loading area, but will "cap" only in the loading area.

0 Long guns will have their actions open, chambers and magazines empty when being carried away from the designated loading /unloading area for each range.

0 Long guns will have their actions left open at the conclusion of each shooting string (i.e., whenever the gun leaves the shooter's hands during or at the end of a stage).

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0 Handguns are returned to leather (reholstered) at the conclusion of the gun's immediate use unless the shooter has been specifically directed other­ wise. For example, when changing from handgun to rifle in a two gun stage, the handgun will be hol­stered before the rifle is picked up.

0 All shooters must demonstrate familiarity and proficiency with the firearms being used. SASS matches are not a proper forum in which to learn basic firearms handling.

0 Alcoholic beverages are prohibited in the range area for all persons; shooters, guests, range offi­cers and others.

0 No shooter will consume any alcoholic beverage until he or she has completed all of their shooting for the day and stored all of their firearms.

0 No shooter will ingest any substance which may affect his or her ability to participate with a maxi­mum state of awareness and in a completely safe manner. Both prescription and non‑prescription pharmaceuticals that may cause drowsiness or any other physical or mental impairment will be avoided.

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0 Eye and hearing protection must be worn by all competitors when in the loading area or on the firing line. Such protection is recommended for everyone when in the range area and eye protec­tion is mandatory for spectators when within direct line of sight of steel targets.

0 SASS affiliated matches are not fast draw competitions. Any unsafe gun handling in the course of a draw from the holster or any "fanning" will result in the disqualification of the shooter from that stage.

0 Shooters are expected to perform within their ca­pabilities at all times, with particular concern about controlling the muzzle direction of the firearms being used. A dropped gun will result in the shooter's disqualification from the stage. A "juggled" gun could result in a disqualification.

0 A shooter may not pick up a dropped gun. The range officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it and return it to the shooter.

0 No shooter will have his/her finger on a firearm's trigger until the firearm is pointed safely down range. Any accidental or premature discharge of any firearm that is determined by the range offi

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cer to be unsafe will result in the shooter incurring a timing penalty or disqualification from the stage. A second such incident on the same day may result in the shooter's ejection from the match. A safe practice is to develop the habit of cocking handguns with the "weak" or off hand after the gun has cleared leather.

 

0 It is expected that the range officers will be the re­sponsible parties for observing and resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading and firing line areas. However, any shooter who observes a safety infraction which is not seen by the range officer(s) may call the infraction to the range officer's attention at which time s/he will resolve the matter.

0 Minor safety infractions occurring during a course of fire which do not directly endanger per­sons will result in a ten (10) second penalty being added to the shooter's time for that stage.

"Minor" safety infractions are occurrences such as an acci­dental discharge impacting within ten feet, but more than five feet, of the shooter, failure to open a long gun's action at the conclusion of a shooting string, letting the muzzle of a firearm pass through

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an approximate 150 degree arc relative to the shooter or failure to return a handgun to its holster at the conclusion of a shooting string.

0 Only registered competitors may wear firearms.

I didn't see any mention of "movement", "traveling" or "basketball", pro or con. Used to be QUITE a bit of movement; and while there was no specific prohibition of shooting while moving, if the RO thought you weren't doing it "safely", you could get called. In fact, when I first saw a video of W3G, I thought, what's so "new" 'bout that? It's exactly the way we used to shoot Cowboy ACTION up @ WEGC (West End Gun Club), back in the 1980s!

 

I can't find my '92, '95, '96, or '99 SHBs, but the 1st mention I find regarding how guns may be "moved" during the course of a stage is in 2000. The "game" wasn't ALWAYS this static... and, IMO it's lost a great number of shooters to other, less static games. THAT is a problem.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

And what if no shooting position was designated for the rifle except that the shooter may not move forward of the props? Would that still be legal under the new clarification?

In that instance the shooter must retrieve dropped rounds from under the TO's boots!

 

Has it been your understanding that in basketball Wilt Chamberlain could stop dribbling and then start again with no penalty? So in the do not move forward of the props scenario how many time can Wilt take off bouncing the ball after stopping and touching it with both hands without penalty

 

This shouldn't be that hard! If you can not move forward of the props then do not move with the hammer back on a live round...

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Not wholly correct. Please read thru this portion of the 1989 Shooter's Handbook.

I didn't see any mention of "movement", "traveling" or "basketball", pro or con. Used to be QUITE a bit of movement; and while there was no specific prohibition of shooting while moving, if the RO thought you weren't doing it "safely", you could get called. In fact, when I first saw a video of W3G, I thought, what's so "new" 'bout that? It's exactly the way we used to shoot Cowboy ACTION up @ WEGC (West End Gun Club), back in the 1980s!

 

I can't find my '92, '95, '96, or '99 SHBs, but the 1st mention I find regarding how guns may be "moved" during the course of a stage is in 2000. The "game" wasn't ALWAYS this static... and, IMO it's lost a great number of shooters to other, less static games. THAT is a problem.

 

Thanks for the history lesson. I should have inserted a 'probably' in that sentence since I wasn't involved in this sport before 2002.

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Not wholly correct. Please read thru this portion of the 1989 Shooter's Handbook.

I didn't see any mention of "movement", "traveling" or "basketball", pro or con. Used to be QUITE a bit of movement; and while there was no specific prohibition of shooting while moving, if the RO thought you weren't doing it "safely", you could get called. In fact, when I first saw a video of W3G, I thought, what's so "new" 'bout that? It's exactly the way we used to shoot Cowboy ACTION up @ WEGC (West End Gun Club), back in the 1980s!

 

I can't find my '92, '95, '96, or '99 SHBs, but the 1st mention I find regarding how guns may be "moved" during the course of a stage is in 2000. The "game" wasn't ALWAYS this static... and, IMO it's lost a great number of shooters to other, less static games. THAT is a problem.

 

FWIW - The "basketball traveling rule" was added during the composition of the RO2 in 2000.

Previously, the SHB & RO1 (as of its introduction at the 1999 TG Summit) had allowed movement with a cocked/loaded firearm IF the stage directions specified so:

 

• When changing location during a stage, all firearms being carried must either have the hammer down on an empty chamber or spent case, or have the action open, UNLESS THE STAGE INSTRUCTIONS ALLOW IT.

 

After that allowance was deleted from the SHB & RO1, it was added back in when the Stage Conventions were approved by the TG's (read the "preamble" to the current list of Conventions).

 

Movement with a cocked/loaded firearm (reference to the “basketball traveling rule”) was deleted from THAT list arbitrarily (as previously noted) sometime between the 2008 and 2009 versions of the Shooters Handbook...recently "breaking the 170º" and “belligerent behavior" were also removed (as those two should never have been on the list in the first place)

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I'm sorry but that dribbling explanation that keeps coming up doesn't work at all, because according to the recent clarification of the basketball rule you MAY start moving again... providing you pause for some indeterminate amount of time before doing so. That's WHY the clarification causes so many issues.

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FWIW - The "basketball traveling rule" was added during the composition of the RO2 in 2000.

Previously, the SHB & RO1 (as of its introduction at the 1999 TG Summit) had allowed movement with a cocked/loaded firearm IF the stage directions specified so:

 

• When changing location during a stage, all firearms being carried must either have the hammer down on an empty chamber or spent case, or have the action open, UNLESS THE STAGE INSTRUCTIONS ALLOW IT.

 

After that allowance was deleted from the SHB & RO1, it was added back in when the Stage Conventions were approved by the TG's (read the "preamble" to the current list of Conventions).

 

Movement with a cocked/loaded firearm (reference to the “basketball traveling rule”) was deleted from THAT list arbitrarily (as previously noted) sometime between the 2008 and 2009 versions of the Shooters Handbook...recently "breaking the 170º" and “belligerent behavior" were also removed (as those two should never have been on the list in the first place)

My '97 SHB contains essentially the same language as the '89, except the added prohibition about using "dropped" rounds. I don't recall exactly when that was added... maybe as early as '92.

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Wait just a minute. In recent discussions on various SASS topics, target distance, target size, scoring, power factors,etc., if any of the other action shooting sports were mentioned we were quickly reminded that SASS is not those other shooting sports. Taboo to mention them. Now all of a sudden, in the topic of shooting and moving their mention is valid? I am for allowing movement. Smoking Gator

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Stan,

 

That was cocking and de-cocking in the first location, then moving to the correct location and finishing the string. A big "P"

 

;)

That was shooting 5 rounds and moving with the gun in a safe condition to the second location per the stage description.

 

NO P

 

Stan

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

That was shooting 5 rounds and moving with the gun in a safe condition to the second location per the stage description.

NO P

Stan

Oh okay... I was just funnin ya

 

But it looks like your answer is in the stage description and you knew that all along

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Well never seen a stage without a shooting position designated, but I will bite, yes what he did was legal he was not walking and shooting he chose a position shot 5 rounds moved with the rifle hammer down on an empty then stopped shot 5 more. If he had shot 5 at the first postion then slowly walking as he shot the remaining 5 rounds, step shoot,step shoot then he would have aquired a penalty, thats the way I see it.

 

KK

Stages like that are pretty common around here. So, if that was legal under the new clarification what is to say that a shooter can not shoot 10 rounds from 10 positions so long as when they move the gun is in a condition that is safe for movement?

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In that instance the shooter must retrieve dropped rounds from under the TO's boots!

 

Has it been your understanding that in basketball Wilt Chamberlain could stop dribbling and then start again with no penalty? So in the do not move forward of the props scenario how many time can Wilt take off bouncing the ball after stopping and touching it with both hands without penalty

 

This shouldn't be that hard! If you can not move forward of the props then do not move with the hammer back on a live round...

Are you advocating for a double dribble rule? You have lost me.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

I'm sorry but that dribbling explanation that keeps coming up doesn't work at all, because according to the recent clarification of the basketball rule you MAY start moving again... providing you pause for some indeterminate amount of time before doing so. That's WHY the clarification causes so many issues.

Boy I am so glad you pointed that out!! The dribbling would be the literal interpretation but would be the solution to crazy leg syndrome. Pretending to not know the indeterminate amount of time it takes to move with the hammer down is what is causing so many issues!!

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Always been legal!

 

 

RRR

Right.....so if the stage description called for shoot 3 from A and 3 from B and 3 from C.....that would be legal......right?

 

What if the stage description called for 2 shots from 5 positions? legal?...of course

 

10 shots from 10 positions? yep still legal......

 

Moving while shooting is only performing legal actions at a higher rate of speed.........

 

I'm hoping for a greater clarification of what is legal and no longer legal and what the penalty is for it. I don't see nearly as cut and dried as some of you. To be a real rule there needs to be a clear definition and just saying shooting while moving is not a clear definition. I'm not saying allow it. I saying define it.......Keep in mind that we just did a way with a rule that worked in our area for years.....Open and Empty......I never once saw it challenged when it was called yet it's gone. Most of you that are cheering it's departure because it was hard to define open/closed our completely fine with the vagueness of the shooting and moving.......funny to me but everyone is different.

 

IF it gets cleared up I'll be happy but if we get no further clarification and no further rewrites of the definitions of movement I don't see how you can call a legal action BY THE BOOK illegal. I really hope that one day we can have a set of rules that follow the meanings of the words as written and we don't have to rely upon some person knowing the intent when it was conceived some 17 years ago. What chance does a shooter have when that is the case.

 

Stan

 

PS...Ray, I just chose your quote because it was right. Not directed at you all Pard.

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