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BJT

Shooting on the move

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Western Three Gun works for you?

Yep, if it was around here... I'd go. I'd still shoot at my regular club...

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Western Three Gun works for you?

 

First, no dog in this fight, but let's take a quick look at W3G.....No B.S. rules about where the shooters feet may or may not be. They can stage a fully stoked shotgun. They reward the shooter for ACCURACY and not just speed. Furthermore, if your bullets aren't powerful enough to knock down the little white plate, well maybe you should put a bit more powder in them.

 

So, they solved four major issues we have been pissing and moaning about for DECADES. I dunno, but to me it seems pretty simple the way they do it.

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First, no dog in this fight, but let's take a quick look at W3G.....No B.S. rules about where the shooters feet may or may not be. They can stage a fully stoked shotgun. They reward the shooter for ACCURACY and not just speed. Furthermore, if your bullets aren't powerful enough to knock down the little white plate, well maybe you should put a bit more powder in them.

 

So, they solved four major issues we have been pissing and moaning about for DECADES. I dunno, but to me it seems pretty simple the way they do it.

You gotta wonder though how many accidents they have had with all of that moving while shooting. I mean it is unsafe right?

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First, no dog in this fight, but let's take a quick look at W3G.....No B.S. rules about where the shooters feet may or may not be. They can stage a fully stoked shotgun. They reward the shooter for ACCURACY and not just speed. Furthermore, if your bullets aren't powerful enough to knock down the little white plate, well maybe you should put a bit more powder in them.

 

So, they solved four major issues we have been pissing and moaning about for DECADES. I dunno, but to me it seems pretty simple the way they do it.

Equally, no dog in this fight. No problem with W3G rules. I would/will follow them if and when I shoot W3G.

If W3G sounds more pleasing, then go shoot it and have fun. Leave the bla-bla 10-10-4 not ending on rifle, questionable TOing, static shooting rules to the CAS crowd.

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You gotta wonder though how many accidents they have had with all of that moving while shooting. I mean it is unsafe right?

They must have superior TO's that can keep up.Thus, safer.

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First, no dog in this fight, but let's take a quick look at W3G.....No B.S. rules about where the shooters feet may or may not be. They can stage a fully stoked shotgun. They reward the shooter for ACCURACY and not just speed. Furthermore, if your bullets aren't powerful enough to knock down the little white plate, well maybe you should put a bit more powder in them.

 

So, they solved four major issues we have been pissing and moaning about for DECADES. I dunno, but to me it seems pretty simple the way they do it.

Which makes me wonder why it isn't more popular. I hope to shoot W3G at some day.

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You gotta wonder though how many accidents they have had with all of that moving while shooting. I mean it is unsafe right?

I don't know how to take that last statement. It's no more unsafe that what we do, or IPSC, or IDPA, or USPSA. Unsafe gunhandling happens in ALL shooting sports from time to time. Have you been to a skeet field lately? - OMG!

 

They must have superior TO's that can keep up.Thus, safer.

 

Most action shooting sports hold their members to a higher level of self conduct when it comes to unsafe actions. They (all those name above) don't have "stage" DQ's. If you violate a safety rule, you go home. Yes, it stings but you never forget what you did to earn the "walk of shame". Hell, in SASS the shooter can actually sweep themselves with a loaded gun and it's a "no call". You can't do that anywhere else.

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I don't know how to take that last statement. It's no more unsafe that what we do, or IPSC, or IDPA, or USPSA. Unsafe gunhandling happens in ALL shooting sports from time to time. Have you been to a skeet field lately? - OMG!

 

 

Most action shooting sports hold their members to a higher level of self conduct when it comes to unsafe actions. They (all those name above) don't have "stage" DQ's. If you violate a safety rule, you go home. Yes, it stings but you never forget what you did to earn the "walk of shame".

 

Agree.

 

Hell, in SASS the shooter can actually sweep themselves with a loaded gun and it's a "no call". You can't do that anywhere else.

 

Agree, and now we can leave an undetermined (till after the stage is complete) condition of a long gun. Will not be long till someone goes down range with a restaged LG behind them with action closed and hammer back.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

I like to spin/twirl my empty revolvers back into the holster. I can do it fast too!! You might not even know I did it!! This is safe cause the revolvers have been shot dry and I like to do it!!

 

There is an exemption for the 170 for drawing and re holstering and they were doing gun spinning at the SASS convention and nobody was hurt so why can't I do this without the fear of being called for something? I mean if it doesn't specificy this exactly then I can right? And when someone tries to clarify that I can't I can always act bewildered or indignant...

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Around here we had a couple of clubs that tried Western 3 Gun on different dates and most folks reason /excuses for not shooting it was they were afraid that they would train themselves to move with a cocked gun. I would try to explain that W3G stages forced you to move because you could not see all the targets without navigating thru the course where as SASS stages are not typically set up that way, you can see all the targets so you dont move while shooting because its easier to manipulate guns standing still.I wish it would of caught on at maybe 1 club it would be fun to shoot once in a while.

 

 

AO

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Agree, and now we can leave an undetermined (till after the stage is complete) condition of a long gun. Will not be long till someone goes down range with a restaged LG behind them with action closed and hammer back.[/color]

 

That would be a failure of stage writing, TOing or both, not a failure of rules. I don't believe anybody wanted shooters going down range from their guns and being swept prior to this "clarification".

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Agree, and now we can leave an undetermined (till after the stage is complete) condition of a long gun. Will not be long till someone goes down range with a restaged LG behind them with action closed and hammer back,

 

 

:huh: Hey something we can agree on

 

 

AO :D

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That would be a failure of stage writing, TOing or both, not a failure of rules. I don't believe anybody wanted shooters going down range from their guns and being swept prior to this "clarification".

 

I'm not going to hi jack thread but I disagree, that's one rule I thought was fine, there are some legitimate " what if's " I'm concerned with on this one.

 

AO

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Stages that include downrange movement have a unique set of circumstances, and in the interest of safety, everyone needs to be cognizant of the dangers thereof, and work to accommodate them... but that shouldn't preclude the application of the rule in the vast majority of circumstances. You can "what if" yourself right back into bed... and then that 1 in 10,000 year tornado comes along and drops your roof on ya...

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You gotta wonder though how many accidents they have had with all of that moving while shooting. I mean it is unsafe right?

 

I don't know how to take that last statement. It's no more unsafe that what we do, or IPSC, or IDPA, or USPSA. Unsafe gunhandling happens in ALL shooting sports from time to time. Have you been to a skeet field lately? - OMG!

 

 

 

 

That was sarcasm. Sorry if it seemed like I really thought it was unsafe.

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That was sarcasm. Sorry if it seemed like I really thought it was unsafe.

 

Sorry, my sarcasm meter wasn't working I guess.

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The issue keeping W3G from growing is the cost of targets. You need a lot of the steel plate targets with the bonus knockouts per stage. They do use some steel with a bonus overlay in front of the steel plate that allows multiple shots per target. It's been tried using some cardboard targets for bonus opportunities but it's not the same experience. I really like W3G. Smokin Gator

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The issue keeping W3G from growing is the cost of targets. You need a lot of the steel plate targets with the bonus knockouts per stage. They do use some steel with a bonus overlay in front of the steel plate that allows multiple shots per target. It's been tried using some cardboard targets for bonus opportunities but it's not the same experience. I really like W3G. Smokin Gator

What is the cost per target?

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The issue keeping W3G from growing is the cost of targets. You need a lot of the steel plate targets with the bonus knockouts per stage. They do use some steel with a bonus overlay in front of the steel plate that allows multiple shots per target. It's been tried using some cardboard targets for bonus opportunities but it's not the same experience. I really like W3G. Smokin Gator

 

 

What is the cost per target?

IMHO,

 

It is not so much the cost of targets. They either have a different color raised plate in front or a drop down in back as a bonus target. The difficult part is props. As you move along the course of fire, different targets are exposed to view.

 

We had a club locally that tried to do this with moveable props. That was much work to set up and take down. At Piru, home of W3G, they have a dedicated W3G range. Some barricades are added for matches. However, most of the props are stationary and dedicated to the sport. Here is one of many videos you may find via Google. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwXBttx4Isk

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IMHO,

 

It is not so much the cost of targets. They either have a different color raised plate in front or a drop down in back as a bonus target. The difficult part is props. As you move along the course of fire, different targets are exposed to view.

 

We had a club locally that tried to do this with moveable props. That was much work to set up and take down. At Piru, home of W3G, they have a dedicated W3G range. Some barricades are added for matches. However, most of the props are stationary and dedicated to the sport. Here is one of many videos you may find via Google. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwXBttx4Isk

Bingo......

 

 

Stan

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Allie is right about the props,walls barricades needed. A club could start out with fewer of the special targets. But to really get the full experience you need for 20 rifle and revolver shots, 12 to 15 of the one shot per target bonus plates plus enough of the overlay targets to complete your 10 and 10. Compare that to 8 to 10 plates for a typical SASS stage. It's safe to say that the targets with a steel plate with cutout in the middle and a hinged falling bonus target cost more than a plain steel plate. The targets with an overlay mounted in front are more also. Don't know the specific costs. It is more work to set up if you don't have a permanent setup. Smokin Gator

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First, no dog in this fight, but let's take a quick look at W3G.....No B.S. rules about where the shooters feet may or may not be. They can stage a fully stoked shotgun. They reward the shooter for ACCURACY and not just speed. Furthermore, if your bullets aren't powerful enough to knock down the little white plate, well maybe you should put a bit more powder in them.

 

So, they solved four major issues we have been pissing and moaning about for DECADES. I dunno, but to me it seems pretty simple the way they do it.

 

Don't have a dog in tha fight either. (One match since Mich. State Range War) in August. Why? I don't know BORED with it, I guess. Dan don't know it all, BUT HE aint wrong much. Loosening tha belt on this sport would probably help IMNSHO. Chewing gum an walking ain't all that hard. I usually bite my jaw chewing gum standing still more than I do while walking. This is coming from a shooter who has never pulled a pistol on tha move or loaded a SXS before I took tha last step. (plant an poke) And would not IF it were allowed however safety sure as heck aint tha reason I wouldn't!!!

 

 

RRR

 

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Western Three Gun works for you?

 

 

Yep, if it was around here... I'd go. I'd still shoot at my regular club...

 

 

I don't know how to take that last statement. It's no more unsafe that what we do, or IPSC, or IDPA, or USPSA. Unsafe gunhandling happens in ALL shooting sports from time to time. Have you been to a skeet field lately? - OMG!

 

 

Most action shooting sports hold their members to a higher level of self conduct when it comes to unsafe actions. They (all those name above) don't have "stage" DQ's. If you violate a safety rule, you go home. Yes, it stings but you never forget what you did to earn the "walk of shame". Hell, in SASS the shooter can actually sweep themselves with a loaded gun and it's a "no call". You can't do that anywhere else.

When in Rome...and I have never had a MDQ or SDQ (knock knock knock) in SASS, but I have in USPSA. I got to running and shooting down the line and took one step too many so I was MDQ on the last course of the day. On another I turned to the next barricade and as I changed mags BOOM!

 

Yes, I do enjoy all the other alphabet games. Why not shoot them? There is much to learn from each....and...more guns to buy! :)

 

Plus, it forces a shooter to keep his head in the game. Did you know that a Beretta with a 10 shot mag tube will not break open like a SXS no matter how hard you shake it? :wacko::lol:

 

YEEEE HAAAAAWWW!

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Actually, most USPSA clubs have lightweight low-cost barricades that are made of construction screening on a 2" X 2" frame or something along those lines. They are easy to carry and set up. The clubs around me can construct a pretty good match in a matter of a couple of hours and tear it down in less time than that. AND, I built some of the original W3G targets, the kind with the small overlay target in front. They are not that much more to produce except you add a six or eight inch plate, a bolt and a spring - no big deal.

 

Let's face it, it's not the cost of the targets or the props. It is, plain and simple, the recoginition of the governing body. To say that you are the World Champion W3G shooter will not turn too many heads. To say that you are the SASS World Champion is a different thing all together.

 

My opinion, FWIW, is that we could add a higher dimension of skill to our sport if we allowed (not required) movement BUT BEFORE WE DO THAT we need to address some other issues. Consolidate the rule book, raise the bar on safety, raise the power factor for non-BP catagories (excluding Buckaroo catagory), get rid of nonsensical rules (i.e. dropped round) and expect pistol targets to be close (5-7 yards) and rifle targets to be far (15-20 yards). I know, this is radical thinking but it is just my opinion. On the other hand, I am happy just shooting what someone is willing to set up.

 

At the end of the day, this is not life or death for me. I will always pull a trigger on something until my eyes give out.

 

Y'all have at it. I am done with this one.

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Actually, most USPSA clubs have lightweight low-cost barricades that are made of construction screening on a 2" X 2" frame or something along those lines. They are easy to carry and set up. The clubs around me can construct a pretty good match in a matter of a couple of hours and tear it down in less time than that. AND, I built some of the original W3G targets, the kind with the small overlay target in front. They are not that much more to produce except you add a six or eight inch plate, a bolt and a spring - no big deal.

 

Let's face it, it's not the cost of the targets or the props. It is, plain and simple, the recoginition of the governing body. To say that you are the World Champion W3G shooter will not turn too many heads. To say that you are the SASS World Champion is a different thing all together.

 

My opinion, FWIW, is that we could add a higher dimension of skill to our sport if we allowed (not required) movement BUT BEFORE WE DO THAT we need to address some other issues. Consolidate the rule book, raise the bar on safety, raise the power factor for non-BP catagories (excluding Buckaroo catagory), get rid of nonsensical rules (i.e. dropped round) and expect pistol targets to be close (5-7 yards) and rifle targets to be far (15-20 yards). I know, this is radical thinking but it is just my opinion. On the other hand, I am happy just shooting what someone is willing to set up.

 

At the end of the day, this is not life or death for me. I will always pull a trigger on something until my eyes give out.

 

Y'all have at it. I am done with this one.

Dan is right on,

I have 7 different disciplines matches each month at my range. Me and 1 other person set 3 of them up ourselves each month.

Others do the other 4. Today my son and myself set 5 uspsa stages up that contained over 20 walls 30 barrels, foul lines and about 2/3 paper targets and 1/3 steel targets for about a 115 rnd match. We did it in 2 hrs. We use the walls that DID described. Each wall weighs about 10 lbs. I have about 45 of these walls and they cost about 12.00 each to make. We have learned to work smarter not harder.

I like all of the shooting disciplines and follow all the rules set forth by each governing body but I feel creating cowboy stages are harder as their are a lot of restrictions on what we can or can't do. To make cowboy more interesting we have resorted to becoming mathematicians to create new sweeps that gives a challenge to shooters.

Dan I need some drawings of the W3G targets.... We might start doing one of those quarterly for fun.

Cope

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Dan is right on,

I have 7 different disciplines matches each month at my range. Me and 1 other person set 3 of them up ourselves each month.

Others do the other 4. Today my son and myself set 5 uspsa stages up that contained over 20 walls 30 barrels, foul lines and about 2/3 paper targets and 1/3 steel targets for about a 115 rnd match. We did it in 2 hrs. We use the walls that DID described. Each wall weighs about 10 lbs. I have about 45 of these walls and they cost about 12.00 each to make. We have learned to work smarter not harder.

I like all of the shooting disciplines and follow all the rules set forth by each governing body but I feel creating cowboy stages are harder as their are a lot of restrictions on what we can or can't do. To make cowboy more interesting we have resorted to becoming mathematicians to create new sweeps that gives a challenge to shooters.

Dan I need some drawings of the W3G targets.... We might start doing one of those quarterly for fun.

Cope

Where's the LIKE button on this forum?

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Dan and Copenhagen, wow you guys nailed it. Thank you for the posts.

 

Sincerely,

- Everyone who sets up matches every month

 

I've got our 2nd SASS match to put up on sat, it used to be W3G but was just too much setup work for the crew we currently have. I'm already having to adjust the SASS stage writing to try to avoid the shooting on the move until we decide what to do about this clarification, and it's just more work. More work writing and double checking stages, more work setting up because you either have to add another position or put up more props to block view and define the shooting position tighter. It just adds more effort all around and reduces fun.

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Dan and Copenhagen, wow you guys nailed it. Thank you for the posts.

 

Sincerely,

- Everyone who sets up matches every month

 

I've got our 2nd SASS match to put up on sat, it used to be W3G but was just too much setup work for the crew we currently have. I'm already having to adjust the SASS stage writing to try to avoid the shooting on the move until we decide what to do about this clarification, and it's just more work. More work writing and double checking stages, more work setting up because you either have to add another position or put up more props to block view and define the shooting position tighter. It just adds more effort all around and reduces fun.

I don't plan to change my stage writing style based on the rule clarification.

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So after all the jaw jackin, what is the rule and how is it different from before the clarification?

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So after all the jaw jackin, what is the rule and how is it different from before the clarification?

 

BJT:

 

the best thing that came out of all this 'jaw jackin' is that some of us got to hear from you and Manatee again.

 

And that was worth it all to me.

 

As some legends are known to say.....

 

"Best Regards"

 

 

..........Widder

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So after all the jaw jackin, what is the rule and how is it different from before the clarification?

:

 

Can not be "shooting on the move', as your title says.

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:

 

Can not be "shooting on the move', as your title says.

But how is that defined. Do both feet need to be planted through the string. Seems simple but it really isn't. If we allow some movement which the old rule did then we need more information to apply the new rule. One TG said if both feet weren't planted while shooting that's a SDQ but other TGs don't see it that way. As far as I know and maybe I missed it the ROC has yet to answer these questions. I think they probably need a little time to work out the wording.

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Good day all,

I am relatively new to CAS, but have decent experience shooting various other disciplines from the conservative and structured IDPA to wide open free thinking 3 gun to include running the timer on stages and calling penalties. Some of the worst gun handling I have seen has been in the heavily structured matches. The more fast paced matches are generally favored by more proficient shooters due to the more complex mental puzzle.

 

After eight pages of discussion, I may have missed it, but the mention of trigger finger control is left out. Moving with a finger off the trigger while maintaining positive muzzle discipline downrange is all that is necessary to allow moving while shooting in a stage or match. "Fingers are to be kept clear of trigger guards while moving or while not actually engaging targets. Failure to do so will result in a SDQ." You the shooter are responsible for navigating the stage at a speed where you can maintain control of your muzzles and fingers. This speed will be different for younger folks as opposed to older folks. This is a fact of life and doesn't need a rule to even it out; that is what age categories are for.

 

As a shooter, I agree with the several shooters who do not oppose the allowance of shooting on the move including one who was gracious enough to see its merits although he did not flirt with it. It will speed up the matches in the wake of those who seem to require perfect conditions to release every single shot with deliberation that would make one suspect their bullets were cast of gold. That said, clean match celebration and recognition is a keeper because it gives everyone something to strive for, especially the slower shooters and beginners.

 

As a timer operator/RO, I think this rule is about as silly and frustrating to watch for and enforce as the old round dump rule in IDPA. This has an effect on the flow of the match when you have to deal with this frustration on both sides of the score sheet. It should be further noted that it is a real annoyance to hear folks at a match lamenting about a talented shooter cheating when the root of the comment is clearly envy and lack of comparable ability. Rules should be written in such a way as not to scream, "You can't do it because I can't do it."

 

We need to be pretty sure we have our penalty system in this game calibrated to what the range officials can actually and reliabily sense (measure). If we don't, EVERYBODY will realize we are just giving out a particular type of penalty based on guess work, friend-of-the-shooter, or dislike of a particular rule.

 

We have gotten to that on the following areas now, where the shooters are faster than the Range officials eyeballs and ears:

* gunfighter double-firing

* complicated sweeps with optional orders

* moving while shooting

* and probably a few others.

 

We've resisted putting some technology in place to help (like video recording), because it would slow down matches. We've resisted other hardware (like All Knockdowns) because it is expensive to do and might slow down matches.

 

But we are now at the place where some folks complain that the matches take to long, and others recognize we are not accurate and consistent (between posses) on penalty assessments. And shooters are just getting faster, making the measuring of "clean" more difficult, so we have spotters just shrugging and giving clean because they don't know what really happened. We really do have to realize the situation we are in and pull our collective heads out of the sand.

 

Penalize only what you can measure, and where there is a clear reason to apply a penalty. Be careful what you measure.

 

GJ

I felt like this fella made some good points that should be remembered. Thanks for your time.

Best,

Carolina Gunslinger

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