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college and how to fix it


Trigger Mike

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I grow ever so tired of everyone telling everyone else how they MUST have a college degree to be worth anything in life and have a meaningful job. They even add the thought that a college grad earns 1 million more in his lifetime than one without a college degree. What is sickening is to see all the poor kept poor by the weight of their college debt. They may earn 1 million more than me, but they have to, to make ends meet after spending over 20k or so a year on college plus interest. Seems like the law of supply and demand should be forced to kick in and tell these colleges we don't need their stinking paper diploma and refuse to pay their high prices for the highly paid professors and get a job without it and learn to save instead of borrow. I get tired of listening to the radio and hearing the folks in trouble because they have 40-100k in student loans and are making 20k a year. How will they ever get ahead? seems to me the college trap is laid by thieves to rob the unknowing and those are the ones earning the million more in their lifetime off the backs of those who were duped into paying for the college degree they could not afford.

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I grow ever so tired of everyone telling everyone else how they MUST have a college degree to be worth anything in life and have a meaningful job. They even add the thought that a college grad earns 1 million more in his lifetime than one without a college degree. What is sickening is to see all the poor kept poor by the weight of their college debt. They may earn 1 million more than me, but they have to, to make ends meet after spending over 20k or so a year on college plus interest. Seems like the law of supply and demand should be forced to kick in and tell these colleges we don't need their stinking paper diploma and refuse to pay their high prices for the highly paid professors and get a job without it and learn to save instead of borrow. I get tired of listening to the radio and hearing the folks in trouble because they have 40-100k in student loans and are making 20k a year. How will they ever get ahead? seems to me the college trap is laid by thieves to rob the unknowing and those are the ones earning the million more in their lifetime off the backs of those who were duped into paying for the college degree they could not afford.

Trigger let me tell you,it is not so much as the professors that is the problem. A lot of it is the administration that is the problem and the cost of BOOKS!!!!! I have been taking classes at the local Junior College. I spent $180. for 1 book and when I went to sell it back to the College they only wanted to give me $10 back because nobody was going to be using the book the next semester. I have spent more then Double on books then I have on tuition.

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I grow ever so tired of everyone telling everyone else how they MUST have a college degree to be worth anything in life and have a meaningful job. They even add the thought that a college grad earns 1 million more in his lifetime than one without a college degree. What is sickening is to see all the poor kept poor by the weight of their college debt. They may earn 1 million more than me, but they have to, to make ends meet after spending over 20k or so a year on college plus interest. Seems like the law of supply and demand should be forced to kick in and tell these colleges we don't need their stinking paper diploma and refuse to pay their high prices for the highly paid professors and get a job without it and learn to save instead of borrow. I get tired of listening to the radio and hearing the folks in trouble because they have 40-100k in student loans and are making 20k a year. How will they ever get ahead? seems to me the college trap is laid by thieves to rob the unknowing and those are the ones earning the million more in their lifetime off the backs of those who were duped into paying for the college degree they could not afford.

That million is an average. Some make 1 million more, some make 10 mill more. Some make not a danged thing. Some who don't graduate make a few billion more.

 

I had a $350 loan after my first semester, paid it back before my second semester and never borrowed another dime. I finished with a PhD, did pretty well, have not retired yet, have a few trips to Europe and Asia in the plans for the near future.

 

My biggest regret about 50 years in computers? Some of my best work became obsolete along with the computers it was written for.

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The problem is that if you don't have that degree, there are so many doors that won't open for you. The business world has almost mandated that you have a degree for any supervisory type of job. Sure, there are exceptions but they are few and unique.

 

College is definitely a racket. Check out the fees that they tack on top of tuition. It almost doubles the cost. I've been paying $100 a semester for a football team that doesn't even exist and won't until a year after my son graduates college. There is a fee so the students can go get their bicycle fixed on campus by some students manning the bicycle repair shop. My kid doesn't even own a bicycle. Why do I have to pay that fee? You just have to play the game and pay the fees to get that piece of paper. Going to a state college is a much better deal than one of the Ivy League colleges.

 

Graduating with $100,000 in student loan debt and a degree in art history is just plain stupid.

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Trigger let me tell you,it is not so much as the professors that is the problem. A lot of it is the administration that is the problem and the cost of BOOKS!!!!! I have been taking classes at the local Junior College. I spent $180. for 1 book and when I went to sell it back to the College they only wanted to give me $10 back because nobody was going to be using the book the next semester. I have spent more then Double on books then I have on tuition.

When I see some 20 something kid bemoaning the fact that they have a college degree in some useless BS subject and multiple thousands of dollars in college loan debt, I have to ask where the parents were, where the counsellors were, where the common sense was, and where the oversight was from regulatory agencies that allowed these kids to get a totally nonsense and generally worthless "education" at a ridiculously overpriced rate.

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that's why it may take one heck of a lot of scrimpin' and savin' and us doin' without....but our daughter will graduate Colorado Mesa University next year DEBT FREE......

 

 

 

then maybe we kin git sum new guns.....

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First, Congress lowered the interest rate to about zero percent, yet student loan interest rate is still above six percent.

Student loan debt has exceeded a trillion dollars

Why doesn't Congress lower student debt interest rate to one percent/

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A lot of the problem is the availability of the loans.

 

How many of you would give an 18 year old kid $50,000 for a new car?

 

Probably not many.

 

But yet we give the same amount or more to kids who use it for school who may not even get a degree or worse yet get a worthless degree in underwater basket weaving.

 

Tuitions keep going up because there is all this 'free' money floating around.

 

I made it through my undergrad debt free.

 

Went back several years later and cashflowed my masters.

 

It can be done.

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My oldest granddaughter graduated with an accounting degree from UC Irvine and was offered one of only two job offers from a worldwide accounting firm. She did her 80+ hours a week for two years, got her CPA license and now is a tax specialist for a large optics company, that would not have been possible without the degree. Her brother is graduating from UC Irvine with a degree in Applied Physics and has a $70k per year job working for the company that he has been interning for for the last two years. Without a degree that would not be the case. I never went to college, my folks would not co-sign any student loans because they knew I was a goof off. My grandson had a full ride scholarship for the last three years and a 3/4 the first year. He has no student loan debt. The granddaughter has hers nearly paid off. My oldest son was heavily in student loan debt but says it's nearly paid off, he's an officer in the Marine Corps.

 

I wish I had gone to college and I encourage all of my grandkids to do so. Whenever they start complaining about school or homework I just tell them that they don't have to do any of it because the world is always going to need ditch diggers and pole dancers. They usually understand.

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When I see some 20 something kid bemoaning the fact that they have a college degree in some useless BS subject and multiple thousands of dollars in college loan debt, I have to ask where the parents were, where the counsellors were, where the common sense was, and where the oversight was from regulatory agencies that allowed these kids to get a totally nonsense and generally worthless "education"

 

 

Did 'ja ever try to tell an 18 year old what he should study? Some know it all by that age already. The concept of a marketable skill will not compute.

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i have a college education from two state universities , i paid for mine working while attending , sometimes four part time jobs at a time , i had less than 5k debt when i started my first job and paid it off in a year and a half - but , that was the late 60s early 70s for school , late 70s working and i doubt a kid could do that today , im also an unregistered professional , taking the exams just never fit into the schedule - working and supporting my family did and i found the jobs that paid better than the indentureship required to qualify for the exams did ,

 

i think i could have accomplished what i did with a good junior college education , i doubt very much a high school diploma would have been sufficient getting started , not to be able to start where i did , but im not certain that in todays world one needs what is being pushed upon them either , particularly the debt - that would be overwhelming and seemingly insurmountable to face getting started ,

 

as i recall i knew so much at 18 it was all downhill from there - now im learning some of what i thought i knew , i like learning something new every day

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When I see some 20 something kid bemoaning the fact that they have a college degree in some useless BS subject and multiple thousands of dollars in college loan debt, I have to ask where the parents were, where the counsellors were, where the common sense was, and where the oversight was from regulatory agencies that allowed these kids to get a totally nonsense and generally worthless "education"

Forty I real do have to laugh at your statement And here is why.

 

I have been a Carpenter and horeshoer for around the 25 year mark, when the economy took a dump we pretty much lost every thing, I did some under the table work and was able to make some money then even hat dried up and we started going through what saving we had so I figured I could go to school and get an AA or AS (not sure which one it would be) in construction management. Everything's going fine for 2 semester I start my 3rd semester and 3 weeks into it they tell me, they cancelled the course of study, I am thinking surveying-civil engineering, the counselors tell me that would be good all the course I took will work for it.So now I start my 4th semester about 4 weeks in and I find out that I should have taken calculus so I struggle though the class just barley passing it, I then go to sigh up for the next semester and I find out they cancelled the next class I need to take and that they are again cancelling that program. So now I am in a delema of not sure what to do, so I go into industrial arts, (Machine shop and welding) instead of equine science like I should have.Then the next couple of semesters taking classes I have no interest in and have no use for because believe it or not they cancelled and had to reschedule some of my classes for different semesters. I am now into my 4 year of a 2 year degree with I think another 3 years to go.( I was a full time student and had to carry a full lad for my VA benefits)

 

I told you all that just to tell you this. They cancelled 2 good programs but you can still get a Degree in Hip Hop Dance

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My son will graduate in December with a business degree. He's already contracted with the Air Force and will commission as a 2nd Lt.. He's being posted to Los Angeles Air Force base as a finance officer. Something about missile and space research. He'll have no student loans to worry about and he'll be on his way. It's been expensive but his mother and I are very proud of him. :)

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My son will graduate in December with a business degree. He's already contracted with the Air Force and will commission as a 2nd Lt.. He's being posted to Los Angeles Air Force base as a finance officer. Something about missile and space research. He'll have no student loans to worry about and he'll be on his way. It's been expensive but his mother and I are very proud of him. :)

This is the kind of story I like to hear.

You should be proud.

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All of my kids and all of my grandkids, that are old enough, have college degrees. Some are highly successful and some aren't worth a dime.

 

It all depends on the kid and their attitude.

 

At least they got a running start.

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I received my bachelors degree when that was all you needed. Now I'm being told by my employer that the dividing line for keeping your job is an MBA. They aren't even thinking of "grandfathering" those of us with experience in. MBAs are a dime a dozen now. While I'm sure the process of going through college had taught me a lot about things like time management, working with others, working against deadlines, etc. I don't know if the things I learned in the textbooks has amounted to much. The Schools of Experience and Hard Knocks taught me much more.

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It is a choice, like many other things. Some see the value in education and some do not. It is an investment of both time and money. The persons work ethic and choice of study will determine if it is worth the investment.

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My nephew graduated from high school nine years ago, then went to college for six years to become a licensed drug dealer. When he graduated in 2011, he turned down $140,000+ with WalMart in Alaska so he could stay in his home town of Missoula at a WalMart there for a paltry $123,000. He's since transferred to a WalMart pharmacy in the Bremerton area and makes something in between. There aren't many folks who can say they turned down $140,000 at 24 years old.

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Did 'ja ever try to tell an 18 year old what he should study? Some know it all by that age already. The concept of a marketable skill will not compute.

As long as I'm the Daddy and either footing or securing all the finances they study what I tell them to or find their money someplace else... without my support.

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As long as I'm the Daddy and either footing or securing all the finances they study what I tell them to or find their money someplace else... without my support.

 

Nice to have that leverage. Both my kids were good students, got free ride scholarships for their first 4 years to any state college in Missouri. One chose well, so it was a mixed blessing.

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Nice to have that leverage. Both my kids were good students, got free ride scholarships for their first 4 years to any state college in Missouri. One chose well, so it was a mixed blessing.

My daughter got scholarships to Carnegie Mellon, graduated with honors, worked at crap jobs for three years for the experience, then started her own company. Clients have included, City of Hope, California Produce and Floral Board, and Soapbox Inc. She has never made less than the her mother and I made combined, and usually considerably more. We were happy to pick what little slack there was, such as rent and food, car payments, etc., but even then she worked for Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and the Scotsman for almost the entire four years.

 

My son got out of the Navy, never tried to use his GI Bill benefits, wanted to go to school to be a sound tech so he could go on the road with rock bans, wanted to be a housing inspector (just as the market collapsed and there were no jobs in Las Vegas), trid his hand at something to do with soils and found out it was mostly low pay OJT type stuff. I refused to be a part of any of that.

 

Now that he's got his sh-- together and working for the state of Nevada, he needs some classes to get ahead. I'm happy to contribute to that and to help with his rent until he gets ahead.

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When I retired from the Army in 1989, all I had was a high school diploma.

Then I went back to college and got my BS.

My uncle paid for my college.

Oh, that uncle was Uncle Sam.

 

There was a marked increase in my pay after I graduated from college even though I was doing exactly the same job...just had a different title.

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Some jobs require a college degree just to get into a graduate program such as vet school. We paid most of her first 4 years, but when she went to vet school for 4 years all loans were in her name. She had worked part-time while an undergraduate, but with clinic hours and classes, it was almost impossible for her to do so while in vet school. She even had classes during the summer months and externships including one at Best Friends Sanctuary in Utah. Her loans had to cover everything including tuition, books, lab fees, and living expenses since she couldn't work much at all during the 4 years at vet school.

 

She had a 4.0 in undergraduate and graduated cum laude from vet school. Her first job was more than her dad made after 30 years with the same company. It was almost as much as our combined salaries.

 

Yes, she has loans, but with the money she is making, she'll get them paid off in just a few years. I consider it a worthwhile investment for the 4 years of vet school and so does she.

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Some jobs require a college degree just to get into a graduate program such as vet school. We paid most of her first 4 years, but when she went to vet school for 4 years all loans were in her name. She had worked part-time while an undergraduate, but with clinic hours and classes, it was almost impossible for her to do so while in vet school. She even had classes during the summer months and externships including one at Best Friends Sanctuary in Utah. Her loans had to cover everything including tuition, books, lab fees, and living expenses since she couldn't work much at all during the 4 years at vet school.

 

She had a 4.0 in undergraduate and graduated cum laude from vet school. Her first job was more than her dad made after 30 years with the same company. It was almost as much as our combined salaries.

 

Yes, she has loans, but with the money she is making, she'll get them paid off in just a few years. I consider it a worthwhile investment for the 4 years of vet school and so does she.

I'm not arguing about kids who get a "real" education. The ones I can't understand are the ones who have a four year degree (or a Masters) in something like Women's Studies, Medieval European Architecture, or History of the Equal Rights Movement in America, or some other worthless crap that can't possibly make the student enough to ever repay the loans. If those were electives at 1/4 the cost or less I wouldn't object. Well, I would, but not as loudly.

 

Also, how can any organization justify the exorbitant cost of textbooks that become outdated the day the author, usually a professor at the same school where the books are being sold, changes a word or two of the text.. It's also strange to me that some of these professors aren't known by sight to their students who have never laid eyes on them but are "taught" by a teaching aide.

 

Most outrageous is the cost vs the value of the end product, which often is ZERO $$$.

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Public colleges and universities have been purposely starved of funding allowing the for-profit educational industry to step in and offer educational "opportunities" at inflated prices.

 

DD

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I know from experience that many places require degrees and such before getting hired. I was a toolmaker for over 40yrs without any papers. I was always the top toolmaker wherever I worked. I also became a special machine designer at one place ( still no degree or even a high school diploma ). But I was stuck working at mostly smaller shops with less than 30 people because all the larger shops required papers and diploma for toolmaking and degrees for machine designers. Even though I always made decent money I could have made twice as much with the papers and degrees.

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Billy, I understand my friend.

 

It is my perspective that, for many trades people, the best thing to do is learn all they can on the job, get continuing education to stay sharp and up to date and acquire a trade license. Taking it further, get an associates in business or accounting and be self employed.

Learn your job, do it well, understand business and control your finances. Anything else puts your equity in someone else's hands. At some point, that will likely prove to not be in your best interest.

 

The problem I see, in engineers and architects particularly, is no real experience when they get out of school. I have worked with one recently from USC with all these great grades and accolades and high averages and he can ramble all day long about this or that but when it actually comes to getting something done, not a chance. He refers to the pros for solutions and regurgitates their ideas as his own. His company is so baffled by his brilliance (defined "bull&&&t) he is supposedly up for an exec VP position and only out of USC 2 years. He is a nice guy and all but a complete idiot in his profession.Everyone in the field knows. Mid level management knows it. The clients know it. His company just keeps spouting Magna Come Wipe MY A$$ from USC with a triple major in Architecture, Wizardy and Elementary Anecdotes. He's a yes man. That's about it.

 

The times I, and another friend of mine, have had to make a rudimentary drawings ( we don't do CAD), with appropriate details of course, and tell a "trained professional" (assigned to us, we know competent people) what we need cause they could not figure it out on their own. I have to do it this week.

 

Again, my biggest complaint is students don't seem to be taught anything relevant to their profession in the real world. Especially in engineers, I see unrealistic solutions, usually because the real world doesn't allow $100,000 solutions to $1000 problems. Or, they cannot do the most basic of tasks. This is not limited to degree related specifics but also includes things like showing up, following up, calling back, taking responsibility and having some basic business etiquette and ethics.

 

I could go on and on. Don't get me started on human resources departments and all of the other nonsense these educated kids ramble about.

 

But alas, without a degree, the experienced are ignored. It appears colleges, by design, are offering advanced training to high school students to fall in line and accept a bunch of idiotic misguided views, coupled with a false sense of intellectual superiority. All this talk of training and high tech jobs is just that, talk. Secondary education, like primary education, has been politicized. All this talk about work smarter not harder inclines people to be lazy. Yeah, it sounds good but our primary education has dumbed down our kids too far to realize they need to do both. And let's be honest, we've handed most of them everything anyway.

 

I enroll in college next week and start this fall.

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The problem I see, in engineers and architects particularly, is no real experience when they get out of school. I have worked with one recently from USC with all these great grades and accolades and high averages and he can ramble all day long about this or that but when it actually comes to getting something done, not a chance. He refers to the pros for solutions and regurgitates their ideas as his own. His company is so baffled by his brilliance (defined "bull&&&t) he is supposedly up for an exec VP position and only out of USC 2 years. He is a nice guy and all but a complete idiot in his profession.Everyone in the field knows. Mid level management knows it. The clients know it. His company just keeps spouting Magna Come Wipe MY A$$ from USC with a triple major in Architecture, Wizardy and Elementary Anecdotes. He's a yes man. That's about it.

 

 

I enroll in college next week and start this fall.

long story very short, Dirty I have been a carpenter for 25 years,went back to school for construction management. I took a number of drafting and architectural classes including auto cad. The biggest problem with want to be architects ( not meant as an insult) is none of them know anything about building. Out of a class of 22 for drafting 18 didn't know what a header was or trimmers, cripples, a couple of them could not even comprehend window and door sizes.

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There is an easy, logical solution to this:

*Public colleges and universities (that we taxpayers fund) should only provide degrees that have at least 50% of job placement in the degreed field. This would end degrees that do not lead to careers. It would also properly size and direct those institutions that everyone funds.

* Private colleges and universities could offer any degrees including degrees with career potential and those without. The open market would determine how many useless degrees were practical.

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I received a aBachelors and Masters in Architecture. And not one dime borrowed. My wife and I worked to get me through school. Every weekend and all Summer I worked. This seems to be something no one wants to do to offset loans. My parents could have stepped in and payed for it. But my dad said and now I no. You'll appreciate what you did even more when you pay for it yourself.

 

80% of the classes I took were a complete waste of time. Even the classes in Architecture had nothing to do with the real world. They taught you a process, but nothing we did was based on reality. It was all about design and how it was an art. One professor said what you are going to find out when you get a job is 90% of what you'll do has nothing to do with design. And only a very small number will ever be designers. He was so right.

 

What pisses me off is sports. Some college couch pulling $3 or $4 million a year. Someone said but sports brings in so much money. Yes it does, but none of it goes to academic's!!!!OJUGBOIUYFGVEOJHBEIUj Dumb.

 

And the reality of this is College Professors don't make that much. But here is the insane thing. They get tenure and they can't be fired. XXX. One of my former professors did something that one doesn't do today in the politically correct world. The Admin. person won a settlement. And he finished his career sitting in his office doing nothing.

 

I do know this. In my profession to get a license to Practice Architecture you must graduate from a 4 or 5 year accredited college. It's piece of paper but without it I wouldn't be making what I do now.

IKe

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What Ike says has another ring to it.

 

As I was paying my way through my Masters, I started demanding more from the University. It was my money, dammit, and I demanded that I start getting the value that I was paying for.

 

Everyone else didn't care. They weren't paying for it. Yet.

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What pisses me off is sports. Some college couch pulling $3 or $4 million a year. Someone said but sports brings in so much money. Yes it does, but none of it goes to academic's!!!!OJUGBOIUYFGVEOJHBEIUj Dumb.

 

 

Way too much emphasis on college sports and way too much money going for salaries, facilities and recruitment. Think of the billions of dollars that could be going into endowments to underwrite the cost of academics.

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Deleted.

Let me say instead:
I am in agreement with previous posters.

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My son just graduated with a degree in engineering and has started working in San Antonio, Texas. He plans to pay off his student debts within 3 or 4 years even if it means keeping his Honda for a few more years. I plan on sending him my Sharps rifle as a present for his effort and diligence.

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