Cassalong Hopidy Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I have always kept the lever safety in my rifles. Am buying one now that doesn't have one, though. So for those who shoot without the safety, my questions are--does the absence of the safety let you run the gun any faster and do you have any problem with out of battery discharges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 shoot the 66 so far no problems it's a combination of having the lever closed at the same time I hit the trigger (or when) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 My '66 and my '60 Henry copy have no lever safety from the factory. No problems yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I know some very good shooters who have had OOB discharges. I have the safety spring lightened in my 73's but I keep the safety in and functional. No one I know has been injured but the rifle is usually damaged by an OOB discharge, bent lever is most typical damage. Edit:To be safe you could always shoot slowly like Blackwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 You coulda added a smiley there Buffy! You know you'll pay for that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I know some very good shooters who have had OOB discharges. I have the safety spring lightened in my 73's but I keep the safety in and functional. No one I know has been injured but the rifle is usually damaged by an OOB discharge, bent lever is most typical damage. Edit:To be safe you could always shoot slowly like Blackwater. Blackwater does not shoot slowly, he shoots carefully, occasionally with some of the worst pistols in SASS history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The same perennial answer still applies, I believe. The lever safety got put there for a good reason as the Winchester toggle design was improved and strengthened to shoot more powerful cartridges through it's evolution. The 1860 (Henry) and the 1866 (yellowboy) were chambered mainly for a much weaker rimfire cartridge. By the time that demand and cartridges were both available, the 1873 was built to handle the more powerful .44 WCF (centerfire). A lever safety was part of keeping the shooter and gun each in their original one-piece condition. Most of the fast shooters I know, keep their lever safety intact. As BD mentioned, the spring can be lightened a lot or replaced with a torsion spring that is available from many shops for not much effort or expense. My view is - you cannot go faster with the lever safety removed. Because your brain has to be aware on EVERY trigger pull whether the lever is completely closed (thus, the action is safely in battery). The answer this year is not much different that it has been for the last 10 years I've been around this game. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Blackwater does not shoot slowly, he shoots carefully, occasionally with some of the worst pistols in SASS history. His 97 works "occasionally" also. I think I know now what inspires his blues singing. (Is that better?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Big Tree Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I'd pass on the rifle, or have it put back in. I don't see how having it in can slow you down. An out of battery discharge could ruin your day... especially if you hurt someone standing near buy. To me it's not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ T. Sites Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I got my 73 used and the safety was removed , I put it back it with a lighter spring. I run the rifle just as fast with it as without it.. Never noticed it was there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I'd buy the rifle if ya like it and you can put in the lever safety when ya get it... Rance Thinkin' if it was in there and stock you'd probably lighten it up anyhow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I have 2. 73s one with and one without. Doesn't matter either way. I never ask for them to be left in or taken out. However if left in tha spring needs work. I have also saw several rifles with the block spread apart an tha lever bent with a fully functional lever safety in tha gun! Mach devices will not help poor gun handling. RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Younger Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Jeez, ya'll are making me paranoid. I bought a 66 from Long Hunter, which he is working on as we speak, and now I'm envisioning OOB discharges all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Jeez, ya'll are making me paranoid. I bought a 66 from Long Hunter, which he is working on as we speak, and now I'm envisioning OOB discharges all over the place. Don't get paranoid. I shot a 66 for several years and the 1st 73 I bought ( brand new) didn't have a lever safety.I ran that for several years too. I didn't know it should have one til I took it to my gunsmith for a pre-season check up. Just bear in mind it doesn't have one and don't use hot loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Younger Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 That's good to hear. Most of my loads are usually recommended minimums anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I have always had the lever safety and like some have said the factory spring is too heavy. But let me add that over the past year I have had a few out of battery ignitions with safety installed and functioning properly. There was a video on the wire recently that showed that the gun can fire well out of battery with hammer never dropping. So bottom line I like having the safety cause it can't hurt but be warned it also doesn't solve all out of battery problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacherman Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 It won't help you beat me, oops, I forgot, you already did!!! Best to have it there, makes no speed difference if you use the light coil spring replacement. You won't know it's there, but ya can't fire until the lever's closed. Much safer system than the '66. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Lever safety or no lever safety is your choice. Either way it has nothing to do with speed. I prefer no lever safety with a one piece trigger. I can't leave it in with the two piece trigger. I jack out to many jacked out rounds. I've never had a OOB, but I live and dry fired a ton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Not worth the risk/damage of a OOB discharge. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Never had one, never missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Cassalong You're a big boy. You know the pros and cons. Just something to think about. If you have an OBD and someone is injured besides you............ I have seen three.........I'm good for the rest of my life Never had one, never missed it. Yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 For me personally I could not keep a 73' running without a lever safety. Tried for two years. My timing and ability are just fine. Just was not for me. Hand size and shooting style has a lot to do with it. I know several shooters would be much happier if they would learn to shoot one with a lever safety. But alas they continue to shoot rifles out of battery and damage parts and have constant rifle problems, but just refuse to try it with one. Also know a couple of guys that can do sub two second sweeps with lever safety functioning. You will figure out what works for you, hopefully not the hard way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 If I was asked for my opinion...........YES Fortunately I don't shoot with many people that shoot 66's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattler Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I've seen just about the same amount of OBD in rifle's with the safety as without. As for me, I really don't care one way or the other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 IMO, it will only take one time to happen to you (OBD), and you will know what to do next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I've seen just about the same amount of OBD in rifle's with the safety as without. As for me, I really don't care one way or the other! This.......... + a bunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Seen OOB's happen with lever safety but bad ammo and smithing were always involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 the last one I saw had both the lever safety and the firing pin still functioning,,,,, and the cartridge still being held in place by the bolt... but the chamber was blocked by a piece of brass left from the previous round. it was about 1/2 in the chamber... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 This sounds a lot like the discussions back in the eighties when pinning the grip safety on a 1911 became a bit of a fad. Yes, you will probably never need it, but since it doesn't get in your way, why take unnecessary chances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 The 1873 toggle ink is not a modern design with a lot of safety features built in. The floating firing pin backed up by an even heavier firing pin extension allows the gun to fire when racked as fast as we do, when there is a chamber obstruction or a case mouth catches on the edge of chamber or bolt and carrier collide due to poor timing. The strength in the design it is not very high. Fairly small toggle links that have to be fully straight to be locked are much weaker than a vertical sliding locking bar or a locking block popping up out of the bolt or a rotary lug system. Given that our fast shooters are driving the guns at rates getting close to 5 rounds a second (300 RPM), I am willing to leave all the safety devices which the original designer put in, right there in place. 10 years ago, the frequency of '73 Out of Battery reports that came up on the Wire seemed to be about four or six a year. Was it a coincidence that that was a high point in the trend to remove firing pin safeties and go to one-piece triggers? Now, when lots of shooters are leaving the safeties functional, even reporting that they have replaced a safety that previous owner had removed, the frequency of such OOB reports here on the Wire is down to about one a year. Are we suddenly not reporting OOBs that occur at matches? Is this a coincidence? Or just something to ignore and go on down your own path? Of course, you own your own gun. If you were shooting all by yourself and could not harm a TO or spotter or spectator, there would be a lot less concern floating around. But, you can cause injuries, with a bad load or a bad safety decision. SASS bills itself as Safety First. Would the newpaper headline (or court outcome) be pretty if a gun with factory safeties removed was at the center of a severe injury or death? Good luck, but more important, be safe out there, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 The 1873 toggle ink is not a modern design with a lot of safety features built in. The floating firing pin backed up by an even heavier firing pin extension allows the gun to fire when racked as fast as we do, when there is a chamber obstruction or a case mouth catches on the edge of chamber or bolt and carrier collide due to poor timing. The strength in the design it is not very high. Fairly small toggle links that have to be fully straight to be locked are much weaker than a vertical sliding locking bar or a locking block popping up out of the bolt or a rotary lug system. Given that our fast shooters are driving the guns at rates getting close to 5 rounds a second (300 RPM), I am willing to leave all the safety devices which the original designer put in, right there in place. 10 years ago, the frequency of '73 Out of Battery reports that came up on the Wire seemed to be about four or six a year. Was it a coincidence that that was a high point in the trend to remove firing pin safeties and go to one-piece triggers? Now, when lots of shooters are leaving the safeties functional, even reporting that they have replaced a safety that previous owner had removed, the frequency of such OOB reports here on the Wire is down to about one a year. Are we suddenly not reporting OOBs that occur at matches? Is this a coincidence? Or just something to ignore and go on down your own path? Of course, you own your own gun. If you were shooting all by yourself and could not harm a TO or spotter or spectator, there would be a lot less concern floating around. But, you can cause injuries, with a bad load or a bad safety decision. SASS bills itself as Safety First. Would the newpaper headline (or court outcome) be pretty if a gun with factory safeties removed was at the center of a severe injury or death? Good luck, but more important, be safe out there, GJ Actually OOB discharges are higher than they've ever been. Most are not reported on the wire. Deuce hit the nail on the head. Most have to do with poor smithing and ammo problems. One thing left out of the equation is target distance. With targets getting closer and bigger the shooter has the tendency to try to run their rifle faster than their ability and still hit targets most of the time. This is great until the shooter gets all bound up then bad things start happening at a fast pace. Just the nature of the beast I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hoss Carpenter, SASS Life 7843 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I bought my second 73 about four years ago and it was "slicked up" and had no lever safety. I ordered one and had a friend install it. I do not think any one touched on the personal liability of the matter. The 66 does not have one because it came that way. As Garrison Joe and others have pointed out, the 73 did. What happens if you get an OOB discharge and someone is hurt? Then a "Shark" Lawyer (most of them) says, "oh, you took the SAFETY off the gun and then shot it in competition?" May not be a nice ending. Put it back on. My 2 cents, Hoss C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Most of the OOB we are talking about are when the toggles aren't flat and the round is not fully chambered. In most of those cases with SASS loads you feel a tug on the lever and spend the next week working on your guns and ordering parts in most cases. Many times the brass doesn't even split in most cases because the round is in the chamber enough to stay together but you feel the push because the toggles aren't fully locked. I'm just saying there are degrees to which they happen....it's not a no OOB or an explosion and a pile of wounded cowboys. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to downplay this but lets keep it honest as well. It still kinda' gets over exaggerated sometimes when people take it to the other end of the spectrum and act as if the whole posse will end up in the ER if someone has an OOB. With safety glasses on the fragmenting brass and powder is the main issue. I'm sure some cuts and possibly minor burns are possible and I'm NOT trying to downplay the possibility of the operator of the gun getting hurt.......but lets not try scare tactics to prove a point that's all. You clearly have some folks that will not take any safety features out of a gun period. You have other that play dangerously too but having a lever safety or not isn't as big of deal as people are trying to make it seem. But most of us are in between and probably less likely to get hurt at a SASS match than a bicycle race.........especially they way some of us could ride a bike.....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Because of this thread, I took a look at my new Rossi 92. There's a "safety" on top and no lever safety. I was dry firing her and pulled the trigger with the action still 1/2" open. Yes, the hammer dropped. Thanks for the heads up, I'll have to practice and make sure the action is full closed prior to pulling the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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