Gunfighter Rules Question

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

From the RO2 Page 10

 

 

At no time is it acceptable for either revolver to be held in an unsafe position (e.g.,

one revolver behind the other).

 

What does "one revolver behind the other" mean?

 

Hand if front of the muzzle......Hand if front of the cylinder......

 

AND

 

if that is an unsafe position would that be "Unsafe firearm handling"?.....RO1 Page 25 under the section of STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

 

 

• Unsafe firearm handling, such as fanning.

 

Stan

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

 

From the RO2 Page 10

 

 

What does "one revolver behind the other" mean?

 

Hand if front of the muzzle......Hand if front of the cylinder......

 

AND

 

if that is an unsafe position would that be "Unsafe firearm handling"?.....RO1 Page 25 under the section of STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

 

 

Stan

 

I guess that's why Deuce and Cheyenne Culpepper have advised /helped me to stop 'pumping' with my pistolas...

 

GG ~

[Wyatt]

Slow day or something more devious?

 

Either way..........interesting question.

 

Let's see how the written word handles the visual translation.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Uh Oh!

 

IMO "one revolver behind the other" means that the tip of the barrel of one revolver is behind the grip of the other. If it is not that simple, there should be a definition in the rules. If it is that simple, the rule is fine with me.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Anvil Al #59168]

That is really a good question.

 

As MANY GF'ers do that pumping thing.

 

So. just how far back is good. And how far back is to far.

And like he ask. What WOULD the call be for sure.

[Noah Cash]

This would also apply to B Western, they are allowed both guns out at the same time too.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

I think of it this way. If a person with one gun out stuck their off hand in front of the muzzle, I would say that is unsafe gunhandling. So if a person brings one revolver back to the point that ANY PART of the other HAND is past the muzzle it would be a similiar situation. That's how I remember it being explained when the earth was still molten.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Uh Oh!

 

IMO "one revolver behind the other" means that the tip of the barrel of one revolver is behind the grip of the other. If it is not that simple, there should be a definition in the rules. If it is that simple, the rule is fine with me.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

If the intent of the rule is to prevent someone from accidentally shooting themselves in the hand that interpretation isn't adequate. Once the muzzle gets back around the trigger guard it starts getting iffy for the shooter, though it could be argued that a ricochet is possible even sooner.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

If you pump, STOP!

While shooting the other hand is possible, its only a matter of time before the hot gasses escaping from the gap between the cylinder, and the forcing cone burn your other hand. After this happens it becomes a much easier habit to break. Don't ask me how I know.

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

After seeing another post today with a GF "pumping" his revolvers, I thought this question would come up. Don't know the "official" answer to it but I have had to warn several new GFs and B Western shooters in our club about it. If they can possibly shoot their hand with the other revolver, they are sweeping their selves with a loaded gun and besides the danger of personal injury will be DQ'ed accordingly.

Mink..........

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

If you pump, STOP!

Its only a matter of time before the hot gasses escaping from the gap between the cylinder, and the forcing cone burn your other wrist. After this happens it becomes a much easier habit to break. Don't ask me how I know.

 

Yup - bad habit indeed...thankfully as mentioned I have (or at least had) some full time shooters lookin' out after me and showed me the proper way...

 

GG ~

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Hand in front of muzzle = unsafe handling = SDQ.................I still do a slight pumping action, but it's less than couple of inches.........and I have had to warn a couple of new shooters, no problem correcting it. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I think of it this way. If a person with one gun out stuck their off hand in front of the muzzle, I would say that is unsafe gunhandling. So if a person brings one revolver back to the point that ANY PART of the other HAND is past the muzzle it would be a similiar situation. That's how I remember it being explained when the earth was still molten.

The crust had formed when I learned it, but - yep - that's it. Really simple, and folks don't realize they're doing it. As we get more Gunfighters (especially BPGF), we need to help them along, as we were helped.

 

CR

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I think JEFRO has it correct in that it would be considered UNSAFE gun handling.

 

I'm not sure if there is a penalty for 'sweeping' yourself.

 

 

..........Widder

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I think JEFRO has it correct in that it would be considered UNSAFE gun handling.

 

I'm not sure if there is a penalty for 'sweeping' yourself.

 

 

..........Widder

I think you're right, just from a safety standpoint I think it's not good practice.

 

CR

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

I think of it this way. If a person with one gun out stuck their off hand in front of the muzzle, I would say that is unsafe gunhandling. So if a person brings one revolver back to the point that ANY PART of the other HAND is past the muzzle it would be a similiar situation. That's how I remember it being explained when the earth was still molten.

 

Goody, That is just plain common sense! Something that I see missing all too often.

 

Blackfoot

[Pleasant , SASS #25245 L]

I do not know of a written in the rules penalty.

 

What about the shooters who draw one revolver and start shooting it before drawing their second revolver?

Under SASS rules the revolver is not to be cocked until 45 degrees downrange.

 

Pleasant

-------

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I think of it this way. If a person with one gun out stuck their off hand in front of the muzzle, I would say that is unsafe gunhandling. So if a person brings one revolver back to the point that ANY PART of the other HAND is past the muzzle it would be a similiar situation. That's how I remember it being explained when the earth was still molten.

 

That's pretty much how this one is to be applied.

 

I think JEFRO has it correct in that it would be considered UNSAFE gun handling.

Generally, if the "back" revolver is cocked with muzzle sweeping the "front" hand, I would have no problem calling a SDQ for "unsafe fiream handling" as that particular action is SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN for anyone shooting GF-style.

...if not cocked & no actual sweep is performed, I would call the progressive "P" for "failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category..."

 

I'm not sure if there is a penalty for 'sweeping' yourself.

 

There isn't.

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

I do not know of a written in the rules penalty.

 

What about the shooters who draw one revolver and start shooting it before drawing their second revolver?

It is acceptable to be firing one revolver before/while drawing the other when shooting GF-style.

 

Under SASS rules the revolver is not to be cocked until 45 degrees downrange.

 

Pleasant

-------

 

If a revolver is cocked before the muzzle is at or past 45º downrange, the penalty is a MSV.

REF: RO1 p.24

[Dubious Don #56333]

I do not know of a written in the rules penalty.

 

What about the shooters who draw one revolver and start shooting it before drawing their second revolver?

Under SASS rules the revolver is not to be cocked until 45 degrees downrange.

 

Pleasant

-------

Huh? And what's the problem with that? Of course assuming I only cock the thing AFTER it passes 45 degrees of course. Ain't no rule sez BOTH guns HAVE to be...anywhere. Please refer to the specific gunfighter rules in the SHB.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

In SASS the shooter may sweep or muzzle his/her ownself with impunity. There is not now nor has there ever been any penalty for doing so.

 

Otherwise no one could draw or re-holster from a straight hang holster.

[Fireball #7709 Life]

Broke ankle keeping you from being otherwise occupied huh?!

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Well,

 

I must admit seeing a few Gunfighters vigorously pumping the pistols in the course of fire where the muzzle of one pistol is behind the hand holding the other. I too was puzzled about making a call with regards to sweeping ones self. Probably less likely to happen with 7-1/2" barreled pistols than 3-1/2". Although I do pump my pistols a couple of inches, I do not cover the other hand with the muzzle. Thanks Stan, for bringing this subject up for discussion and to PaleWolf for the clarification.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

[Spittoon O Tool SASS #62053]

In SASS the shooter may sweep or muzzle his/her ownself with impunity. There is not now nor has there ever been any penalty for doing so.

 

Otherwise no one could draw or re-holster from a straight hang holster.

 

+1

 

Spittoon

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Let me just point out what was just said......like you folks need that or something.....

 

If a GF'r cocks a gun while the muzzle is pointed down range BUT while "some part" of his other hand is in front of that gun, it's unsafe gun handling.

 

BUT

 

If a two handed shooter lays down a long gun with his left hand BUT sweeps his left arm with a cocked revolver while drawing it (i.e. crossdraw holster), THAT'S PERFECTLY OK.

 

Just exactly what are we promoting here? What?, that it's better to have a hole in your arm instead of your hand?

 

If we are really concerned with safety then sweeping yourself SHOULD NEVER BE OK.

 

In my opinion we are unfairly saddling the GF'r with an additional safety rule (read: penalty) that everyone else doesn't have to worry about.

[Wyatt]

Help me out. I wanted to reread the rules on sweeping your own dangself

 

I did some research in the Handbooks but could not find the rules covering sweeping yourself while shooting.

 

 

 

PS: Fireball, The rumor I heard was somebody other than Stan has a BooBoo

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Broke ankle keeping you from being otherwise occupied huh?!

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.....LOL

 

Stan

 

PS.....thanks PWB

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Let me just point out what was just said......like you folks need that or something.....

 

If a GF'r cocks a gun while the muzzle is point down range BUT also while "some part" of his other hand is in front of that gun, it's unsafe gun handling.

 

BUT

 

If a two handed shooter lays down a long gun with his left hand BUT sweeps his left arm with a cocked revolver while drawing it, THAT'S PERFECTLY OK.

I think you mean Duelist......I don't see how a two handed shooter could achieve what you are describing without cocking the gun Duelist style.

 

Stan

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Stan,

 

Does it matter?

[Dang It Dan 13202]

And BTW, how many times have you seen a two handed shooter go back the rifle, after drawing and cocking his pistol, to open the lever? Do you think that part of his arm and hand are NOT in front of his pistol while he is doing that? Is that NOT the same thing you would ding the GF'r for?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Sounds like it to me.......is it based on proximity to the muzzle or just beyond the plane of the muzzle?

 

Stan

[Dang It Dan 13202]

And, while I am at it, I am not disagreeing that a GF'r should have a higher gun handling capability, but without a damn clear definition of what we are talking about AND a change is the sweeping yourself rule, this discussion is meaningless in terms of safety.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Let me just point out what was just said......like you folks need that or something.....

 

If a GF'r cocks a gun while the muzzle is pointed down range BUT while "some part" of his other hand is in front of that gun, it's unsafe gun handling.

 

BUT

 

If a two handed shooter lays down a long gun with his left hand BUT sweeps his left arm with a cocked revolver while drawing it (i.e. crossdraw holster), THAT'S PERFECTLY OK.

 

Just exactly what are we promoting here? What?, that it's better to have a hole in your arm instead of your hand?

 

If we are really concerned with safety then sweeping yourself SHOULD NEVER BE OK.

 

In my opinion we are unfairly saddling the GF'r with an additional safety rule (read: penalty) that everyone else doesn't have to worry about.

Wouldn't a shooter who did that be either violating the 45 degree rule (cocked his pistol too soon), or have extremely long arms?

 

The situation with going back to open a lever and sweeping yourself is now moot, but I suspect a person doing this is also violating the 45 degree rule if his pistol is cocked.

[Korupt Karl]

I have only been dabbling with the GF thing a short while compared to some of you....and I actually did some dry firing last night to see how this violation would occur. I shoot 5 1/2" barrels primarily and while I do pump, it's no where close. I think if someone was using shorter barrels it would be easier to achieve, but it seemed to be quite animated to make it happen with the longer barrel.

 

Dan; I agree that sweeping oneself is not good, but it is unavoidable in some situations....the main thing that I see with someone overexaggerating the pump with GF is that if he is an alternate cocker he is sweeping with a cocked gun unlike when we are going to and from the holster.

 

Just my view from my saddle....mileage may vary.

 

KK

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I have only been dabbling with the GF thing a short while compared to some of you....and I actually did some dry firing last night to see how this violation would occur. I shoot 5 1/2" barrels primarily and while I do pump, it's no where close. I think if someone was using shorter barrels it would be easier to achieve, but it seemed to be quite animated to make it happen with the longer barrel.

 

Dan; I agree that sweeping oneself is not good, but it is unavoidable in some situations....the main thing that I see with someone overexaggerating the pump with GF is that if he is an alternate cocker he is sweeping with a cocked gun unlike when we are going to and from the holster.

 

Just my view from my saddle....mileage may vary.

 

KK

 

I reckon you should be fine with these 'peters'...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfcFdlGNprg

 

GG ~

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

I have shot gunfighter since sass recognized it as a category, and have been running a timer longer than that. Most gunfighters hold the pistols side by side with the barrels roughly parallel pointed down range. Even if the shooter is pumping the guns severely enough to get one hand farther downrange than the muzzle of the other pistol he probably is not sweeping that forward hand.

 

Now before everyone starts jumping up and down I will concede that forward hand is in a vulnerable position but it very well may not be swept by the rear pistol. Picture the war movies where the barrels of Anti Aircraft guns recoil while the other one is firing, even though on is ahead of the other they are not pointed at each other. The only way to determine for sure that the forward hand is being swept is to stand directly behind the shooter and looking over their head.

 

If the TO is standing to one side or the other it becomes very difficult to verify that the pistols are directly behind each other or that one is pointed at the other.

 

I have observed new GFers pumping their pistols severely, and tell them that they may put their hands in that vulnerable position as well as wasting a lot of motion. This usually fixes the situation.

 

Hope this helps

 

Smoke