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Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580

Two different sweeps in the same stage? Good idea or bad?

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Probably was time for him to stop for the safety of others

I do not agree with this as a general comment. I have had two friends in the last year that quit shooting because the local club kept having different sweeps for rifle and pistol and always had one or more difficult new sweeps each month. The two individuals are in excellent health and show no signs of any impairment or safety issues. Both still finished in the top 20% of the competitors. As you get older some folks think a bit slower and when you shoot fast thinking slower results in Ps which folks do not enjoy. They both still shoot but no longer compete. One was an NCAA football ref until just recently. He failed his physical due to an increased PSA level.

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As a general statement for my advanced age shooting, I do not object to different sweeps for rifle and pistol as long as they are both easy and well known sweeps for one or two stages per match. When you combine two different sweeps when one is not a well known sweep, then it does get too difficult for many shooters and should be avoided IMHO. SASS has recommend that pistol and rifle sweeps be the same.

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Wyatt,

Just because a person cannot remember the correct shooting sequence does not make them unsafe. Hell, it happens to all of us now and again. That includes you. Did it make YOU unsafe on that stage?

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Let's just say I have some personal experience in this subject. Are y'all telling me that you have never had a conversation about a shooter that should give up competing

 

But that's not the subject of this thread

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Howdy

 

I am of the Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) mind set regarding stage writing. It is a BAD IDEA to have the pistol sweeps and the rifle sweeps in one stage be different. As has been stated, some of us, myself included, are not great when it comes to memorizing shooting orders (ask anybody I shoot with). CAS should not be a memory contest, not matter how fast anybody shoots.

 

It is always best, if one is going to have sweeps, or any other shooting order, to have the rifle shooting mimic the pistol shooting as much as possible. Whatever you choose, keep them the same, Two Nevada sweeps, or what ever you choose. Other wise you will have built in a P trap. This will quickly reveal itself when you start analyzing scores and see how many Ps were committed on any particular stage.

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There's one real problem with starting at any target on a sweep, and that is the counters don't know where to look or what to expect.. To insure fairness in spotting to all shooters, I'm of the opinion that letting them choose starting from either end is fine, but starting just anywhere, is asking for poor results from the spotters, and makes their job a lot harder.

 

Simply a bad idea, as far as I'm concerned.

 

RBK

I agree. As the members of our sport age, some have to deal with memory issues. Its great if you don't mind having the posse shout out shooting instructions all day long for a shoot , to avoid taking procedurals

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Dern, blasted Gamers!

 

lets hang em all.

 

everytime ya get around em, all they do is answer questions on practice techniques, tell ya how to improve and/or fix a broken firearm (and sometimes even fix it for free), help your wife or child to improve their shooting skills, serve as Match Directors, RO's, Posse leaders, TO's, and prove that things once thought impossible, are really possible with proper techniques and practice.

 

YEP, basically, those ornery Gamers have been bad boys and girls.

 

I saw a bunch of em hangin out together at GOA this year and a black cloud was floatin over their heads and following them everywhere.

 

I think one of them was wearing a bright YELLOW, ugly shirt and smokin a cheap cigar..... :P

 

 

..........Widder

 

Sounds strangely like someone I know ;)

 

With common sweeps, this should present no problems for most shooters. New shooters or those who get Ps every match might struggle a little, but let's not dumb down our sport like they do in kindergarten thru 12 :excl: Mensa membership should not be required, but a little change from time to time is fun.

 

CR

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I can see both sides of this debate! :) But then again I shoot with both eyes open. :wacko:

 

Trial by fire, keep track of whats working for the majority.Trim out what don't, keep it fun for all.. ;)

 

 

Get others to grab an oar and help row the boat, that tends to quiet the nit pickers (At least in my experiance) :P

 

Spades H

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Let's just say I have some personal experience in this subject. Are y'all telling me that you have never had a conversation about a shooter that should give up competing

 

But that's not the subject of this thread

You bet there are shooters that have come to the point that they should quit competitive shooting due to age related or medical related issues. When they come to a shoot those in charge need to step up and have a very private conversation with the shooter and explain his issues and request he not shoot. Been there and helped do it.

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Well...I'm retired now from writing stages for the last club I belonged to...but I still have the experience of writing stages under my belt.

 

Most folks don't want a memory test.

 

That said, if you keep it simple, the stage usually works out alright.

 

If you have a brain tester sequence on...say the Rifle, make the pistols easy...like 5 on 3...or whatever...and don't add a SG sequence!!!!

 

Just my opinion...move along...

 

Phantom

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KK works for the NSA..... :ph34r:

 

Morning Litl Red.

Actually, in some of our mini-bios under our avatars, we list our club(s), etc...

 

then you can go to the SASS home page and click on 'Affiliated Clubs' which will take you to a map of the U.S. Click on the state you want to view. This will take you to a listing of all the SASS clubs in that state, of which you can then click on any particular club to visit their website, etc...

 

For example: you live in NC. And although you didn't list your home club, a person could view ALL of the clubs in NC and look for your name. Assuming you shoot a monthly match somewhere every couple months, you're scores can be found, your placement can be seen and even the category you shot in.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

Thanks Widder,

You helped me understand a lot.

 

I would never have thought of all those steps just to look up another poster's average stage time. What exactly does it tell you about that person?

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I always like to look up someones scores when they throw around the "Gamer" thing. Hell, we all want to shoot our best and if along the way we get a bit faster....does that make us a gamer. I noticed that your scores average around 45 seconds a stage at a recent shoot. Was this with the same sweeps for rifle and pistol or with similar sweeps for each?

 

Just wondering. But, are you still having fun or did the common sweep thing ruin it for you?

 

KK

I do the same thing. I noted an interesting pattern long ago.

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"Gamer": The "George Bush" of Cowboy Action Shooting when it comes to laying blame for our own ineptitude.

The pattern I spoke of in previous post. Boon Doggle, you always make me laugh.

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It's no problem for me. Quite often our stages have different sweeps for the rifle and pistols.

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+1.... there is no advantage to starting on either end. Most clubs are now going to that instruction and even 'start from any window; any gun' type instructions. It spices things up and sometimes will even dramatically alter how a leftie; gunfighter; duelist might want to shoot the stage.

It can make a difference when you are shooting black powder.

If the wind is blowing from right to left I will start on the left so that subsequent targets are not obscured by the smoke.

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Howdy

 

I am of the Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) mind set regarding stage writing. It is a BAD IDEA to have the pistol sweeps and the rifle sweeps in one stage be different. As has been stated, some of us, myself included, are not great when it comes to memorizing shooting orders (ask anybody I shoot with). CAS should not be a memory contest, not matter how fast anybody shoots.

 

It is always best, if one is going to have sweeps, or any other shooting order, to have the rifle shooting mimic the pistol shooting as much as possible. Whatever you choose, keep them the same, Two Nevada sweeps, or what ever you choose. Other wise you will have built in a P trap. This will quickly reveal itself when you start analyzing scores and see how many Ps were committed on any particular stage.

 

Everyone's allowed an opinion. Where I see folks going wrong is trying pass their opinions off as facts, using absolute statements and falsly defining situations.

 

 

But that's just my opinion. ;)

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It can make a difference when you are shooting black powder.

If the wind is blowing from right to left I will start on the left so that subsequent targets are not obscured by the smoke.

 

 

You and Brother King are in agreement, he just doesn't use his words very well. ;)

 

HIs feelings would have been better expressed by saying, ".... there is no advantage to specifying which end the shooter must start from."

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OK Guys,

Several of you mentioned that a Lefty likes going from right to left. It really doesn't make any difference to me and I'm left handed. Since I shoot BP that is when it makes a difference.

What does make a difference is the movement to the long guns. Just about every stage moves from left to right. That is what slows down the lefty. We need to take one more step to pick up the rifle/shotgun. The LA. State Match 2 years ago was the only one that was written where you could start from EITHER direction. Give us lefties a break.

WJ

 

For the OP. Yea pretty simple stage sweeps with no problem from an old fart

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Thanks for all of your input, y'all. I don't really plan to put something like the combination in my opening post in every stage, but I'm thinking one or two won't hurt things too much as long as they're relatively common sweeps.

 

Anybody else want to chime in?

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Different sweeps for rifle and pistol are not usually a problem if they are fairly simple, or are like mirror images of each other... and letting folks start with any gun, shouldn't be a problem... if the shooter is asked for their planned sequence of rifle/pistol/sequence... this eases the job of the TO and spotters, and helps ensure there isn't any stumblin' around to allow the shooter an unencumbered stage.

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You and Brother King are in agreement, he just doesn't use his words very well. ;)

 

HIs feelings would have been better expressed by saying, ".... there is no advantage to specifying which end the shooter must start from."

 

Rumors east of the Mississippi is that Bro. King don't have much use of 'words'. He does most of his talking with his Six Shooters..... :o

 

 

..........Widder

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Memo to stage writers:

 

Write 'em any way you want. Your shooters, not the cowboys on the Wire, will let you know how you did. They are the ones you have to keep happy.

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I do not believe the OP is to complicated, however I personally like to see/write stages that have same theme in sweeps, for P & R...... Progressive, Nevada, Blackjack, etc. I prefer shooter's choice to which end to start (target 1, either left or right), rifle and pistol. , thus pleasing those who favor starting on right rather than more common choice of left to right...and it, as mentioned, gives BP shooters a decision judging smoke drift. In reality for most shooters, some sweeps are actually two separate sweeps with pistols.. Ex. Progressive sweep (1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,) to me, the mindset is first pistol 1,2,2,3,3,-second pistol 3,4,4,4,4. Another ex. Blackjack, a Nevada from center, (three targets going right for my example) 2,3,2,1,2,3,2,1,2,3--.first pistol 2,3,2,1,2 second pistol 3,2,1,2,3. IF a designated side (left or right) is given for a sweep then I prefer it to be for both pistol and rifle, not one from left, the other from right. IMO, a given side to start just places more of a job on TO who wants to help so he/she must remember to call out side for all. If TO forgets for first shooter and that shooter starts wrong then all learn quickly at that shooters expense. (The disadvantage of being first, you may set an example for others in posse, good or bad.....but I do it often and have certainly paid the price with P.)

 

Unless stage writer says that pistols or shot as 10, continuous, or same direction, I read that as first pistol can start on one side and other on opposite side. Example. Five targets two times each, I would normally shoot that from right with right pistol 5,5,4,4,3---left pistol 1,1,2,2,3....not saying double tap gave me an option.

 

OP is not bad, but it is so easy just to say either end or target 1 is left or right, shooter's choice.

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Charlie;


First of all, good on you, for picking up the reins. Our entire sport is dependent on volunteer labor, and putting on a match, month in and month out, is a bigger chore than most of your shooters will ever realize!

 

A couple of things to ease you on down the road:

 

1.) Remember the general age of our shooters. Given that, you should avoid more than one 'trick' per stage. Example: If there's a bonus shot, reload, flyer, anything like that, folks will be obsessing on the 'trick'. Two different sweeps is the 'trick' on the stage that you describe; make sure the shotgun is 'any order.' Otherwise, where possible, keep the sweeps the same.

 

2.) 'Round count' stages also simplify the game. If you want 1 on each outside target, two in the wings, and three in the middle, let them figure out how to do that, in the fashion most favorable to themselves.

 

3.) Keep a notebook of the stages you write. Some will work; some will not. Employ and polish what works, and can what doesn't. Keep shooters happy, and they'll keep on coming back.

 

Cheers, and best wishes on your club!

 

Frederick Jackson Turner

 

 

 

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Heeee Haaa KK..Say it ain't so.. :huh: are you working for the NSA. <_< .Your not passing any info to them there Paradise Pass Fellers.. :o Like Who ta watch out for,What cat.ta shoot.. :P etc..Mmmmm <_<

 

Heeee Haaaa Crazy(you write them I'll shoot Them) Mingo :wacko::wacko::FlagAm:

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Ming; I sure am with the NSA....."Not Sure of Anything".

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I think it's all been covered and I agree, most folks like to have the choice of starting from either end. I personally don't mind one or two "different stages" at a monthly match as long as it doesn't become a memory test. Your local shooters will give you the feedback on if two different sweeps is too much for the group. It is something you have to be careful on and you will notice that us gamey types will also slow down a tad on a complicated stage but the pecking order will remain the same! Thanks for your efforts!

Colt

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I use this stage every couple of years. Three different sweeps ?

 

Four shotgun targets and Five (Rifle/Pistol) targets: two high, one middle, two low.

 

Shoot shotgun targets. Shoot (R/P) targets with rifle in a "Z" and reverse for 10 rounds.

 

Move forward to table, Shoot targets in a "M" for for 5 rounds and then shoot targets in a "W" for 5 rounds.

 

I always find it amazing how some manage to shoot it, as we all know the letters: "Z", "M", and "W".

 

Is this really too complicated ?

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I use this stage every couple of years. Three different sweeps ?

 

Four shotgun targets and Five (Rifle/Pistol) targets: two high, one middle, two low.

 

Shoot shotgun targets. Shoot (R/P) targets with rifle in a "Z" and reverse for 10 rounds.

 

Move forward to table, Shoot targets in a "M" for for 5 rounds and then shoot targets in a "W" for 5 rounds.

 

I always find it amazing how some manage to shoot it, as we all know the letters: "Z", "M", and "W".

 

Is this really too complicated ?

Not too complicated. You are building on memories your shooters already have. Buckerettes through Grand Dames all learned the letters of the alphabet in grammar school and used them all their lives. This stage is not a tricky mental challenge. I think I'll use it the next time I'm a stage writer at my local club.

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I don't understand what all the hllabaloo is all about.

I'm gettin up there in years myself and have a hard time remembering stages that are more complicated than five on one steel.

I know there is a name for that sweep, but I can't remember it.

Then we get into all the other aspects of the situation..........................................??

Ummm, uhh, what is it we were all gettin upset about now?

Hang in there pards, I'll get back to ya on this........

 

 

let me see now, oh yeh, hit the post button

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Well one club I shoot at will have rifle one way then each pistol a different way and each pistol different then do the shotgun different. Just makes my brain hurt. Wonder why their attendee has gone down??????? Also things like holster first pistol then shoot second pistol. Not good for Dbl. Duelist or frontiersman.

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Well one club I shoot at will have rifle one way then each pistol a different way and each pistol different then do the shotgun different. Just makes my brain hurt. Wonder why their attendee has gone down??????? Also things like holster first pistol then shoot second pistol. Not good for Dbl. Duelist or frontiersman.

I agree that in this entertainment sport and we need to give the shooters what they want. If a club can exist and continue to grow with unique scenarios and other stuff....good for them. If attendance is slowly decreasing the club needs to be asking people why they aren't coming.

 

As far as the first pistol, second pistol thing....if is often better to state the first five shots and the second five if you must be specific. To insist that a shooter use each pistol separately does hinder a gunfighter. As far as the first and second pistol, I guess I don't understand your comment as a Duelist can only have one loaded gun out of the holster at a time??

 

KK

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I agree that in this entertainment sport and we need to give the shooters what they want. If a club can exist and continue to grow with unique scenarios and other stuff....good for them. If attendance is slowly decreasing the club needs to be asking people why they aren't coming.

 

As far as the first pistol, second pistol thing....if is often better to state the first five shots and the second five if you must be specific. To insist that a shooter use each pistol separately does hinder a gunfighter. As far as the first and second pistol, I guess I don't understand your comment as a Duelist can only have one loaded gun out of the holster at a time??

 

KK

KK as a Dbl duelist and Frontiersman I do not have to holster the EMPTY gun before I draw the next one. So bottom line one gun is empty at my side while I shoot the other one. Then holster both except when you are told to holster after firing first gun. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

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KK as a Dbl duelist and Frontiersman I do not have to holster the EMPTY gun before I draw the next one. So bottom line one gun is empty at my side while I shoot the other one. Then holster both except when you are told to holster after firing first gun. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

I think that could be stage writer putting in details that should not be there, there are SASS rules for that.

 

AO

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