spittoon otool Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The Atlanta Cattle Comp. shoots at the Atlanta, Indiana Consvervation Club and their board of directors (none of which are cowboy shooters) appears to be trying to run the cowboy shooters out by using over the top safety rules. They don't feel the established SASS rules are satisfactory. It is a shame when pro-gun club members become anti-gun against another shooting sport for self serving interests (those in the know say auto shooters want the cowboy weekend for their group). Read their safety recommendations here: http://www.atlantacattlecompany.com/ Spittoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Let me guess IDPA wants your weekend? JEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Looks like they want the cowboys out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack N. Water Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 SOMETHING SIMILAR HAPPENED HER IN AZ A COUPLE MONTH'S AGO. THE RANGE BOARD TOSSED OUT THE ESTABLISHED COWBOY CLUB & THE STATE BLACK POWDER CHAMPIONSHIP THEN STARTED THEIR OWN CLUB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Gun For Hire Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Well I have to ask. Are these rules so hard to follow that you would stop shooting there? I know we police ourselves and try to be safe as possible but sometimes others see infractions that we may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Are all the other shooting disciplines / clubs at this range held to these same rules and procedures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 We deal with the same issues. In the end the only way to satisfy the safety board was to have a special meeting and display to a few of them in person how the safety protocols of a SASS match actually work in relation to single action firearms... then have the exemptions voted on at a board meeting of the gun club. About half of those issues required exemptions, and we had a few others that are specific to our range. It is seriously unfortunate that it has come to this. The reason SASS matches can operate the way they do is specifically BECAUSE the guns are single action. It is one of the aspects that makes it so family friendly. When you try to put a SASS match under modern semi-auto multi-gun rules it makes it nearly impossible to hold a match. See if you can get your board members to come out again and show them HOW and WHY the safety systems in the SASS rules work. Show them the whole process from the gun cart... through to the unloading table. Make sure you know and understand how to answer every possible question as to why the safety is adequate. Do the demonstration with no more than one or two other very professional and knowledgable cowboys who can demonstrate the way the shooters go through the stage. Good luck and don't give up. They just don't UNDERSTAND cowboy shooting. And the knee-jerk reaction is to say NO that that which you do not understand especially when liability is involved. Don't get angry, be ultra friendly and offer to bring them up to speed on your shooting discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 EDIT - If it's pure politics on the shooting weekend... maybe offer to move it. If it saves your club... it might be worth giving in on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 #1 seems a bit harsh: I'm not sure what they mean by safety station. Are they talking about the loading/unloading area? Regardless, if all firearm handling must be done inside of a bay how do they get the firearms from their car to said bay or safety station? If safety station refers to loading areas how do you load the firearms if ammunition may not be present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 After reading the results of the safety audit, I think you cowboys at ACC have a long difficult journey ahead. The fact that your host club even has a safety committee would give me concern. Committees of this nature attract people that are..... difficult. The "what if" and "safety at all costs" crowd need to be kept in check by those that can think in realistic terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Howdy I have seen this happen before. If the host club has a burr under its saddle, and a few members want to get rid of a Cowboy match at their club, there really is not much you can do about it. Some of their comments are ridiculous, such as thinking that it is acceptable under SASS rules for guns to be handled while somebody is down range. When I have seen this happen, the guys in the club who wanted to get rid of the Cowboy matches sent their representatives to scrutinize with an eagle eye what was happening at SASS matches. Looks like that has happened at your club too. Some of their observations may hold some water, be sure everyone at your matches observes the 180, particularly at the loading and unloading tables. But if they really think a little chit chat is a safety hazard, it is time to start looking for another club. In order to have successful cowboy matches, it is critical that the club be 100% behind the idea. If not, there will always be sniping and discontent, and no matter what you do, the host club will be unhappy. Time to start looking for another club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 After reading the results of the safety audit, I think you cowboys at ACC have a long difficult journey ahead. The fact that your host club even has a safety committee would give me concern. Committees of this nature attract people that are..... difficult. The "what if" and "safety at all costs" crowd need to be kept in check by those that can think in realistic terms. Logical... GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Let me guess IDPA wants your weekend? JEL Ta Daaaa!! Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spittoon otool Posted July 26, 2013 Author Share Posted July 26, 2013 Howdy I have seen this happen before. If the host club has a burr under its saddle, and a few members want to get rid of a Cowboy match at their club, there really is not much you can do about it. Some of their comments are ridiculous, such as thinking that it is acceptable under SASS rules for guns to be handled while somebody is down range. When I have seen this happen, the guys in the club who wanted to get rid of the Cowboy matches sent their representatives to scrutinize with an eagle eye what was happening at SASS matches. Looks like that has happened at your club too. Some of their observations may hold some water, be sure everyone at your matches observes the 180, particularly at the loading and unloading tables. But if they really think a little chit chat is a safety hazard, it is time to start looking for another club. In order to have successful cowboy matches, it is critical that the club be 100% behind the idea. If not, there will always be sniping and discontent, and no matter what you do, the host club will be unhappy. Time to start looking for another club. You are probably right as usual Driftwood and that's a bummer. Spittoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 One of my pet peeves has been the lack of quality in the writing of the SASS "literature" known collectively as the rule books. As this is the way in which non-SASS persons view the collection of SASS safety rules and other rules, the lack of rule book organization and/or quality helps make others view that SASS is disorganized and to some degree incompetent. My observations stem from this incident and the last 5 or 6 years of attempting to get my host gun club to help the CAS club change match directors and move in step with SASS. One of the hottest discussions revolves around the target size. And the rule books don't really help. They make it vague. Please note that these comments are about the rule book and the gun club I belong to and NOT about the club in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hacker, As far as target size and distance is concerned, I think it is good that SASS lets clubs determine what THEY want. I've never dealt with any of the other shooting sports, but I don't see the SASS rule books as so incomplete or badly written as to make anyone think SASS was unsafe, unorganized or incompetent. Possum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StirrupTrouble Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 I find it odd that they are worried about safety in cowboy matches when we only have single action weapons, yet in some other sports people are running around a course of fire moving through targets with semi-autos with the hammer back. I am not slamming other sports, as I do them as well, but nothing is more scary that watching a new person running through a USPSA course in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 "Time to start looking for another club." +1 on this. One of the reason I quit the IDPA. Cowboy shooters are more friendlier. IMHO you could be in a no win situation. It is hard press to change the majority of these people's mind. Just MHO. Hopefully it will work out for you pards out there. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Their comment regarding target distances is laughable...at best. They sure seem to have an agenda...other then safety. Cheers! Phantom PS: Do find another club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hacker, As far as target size and distance is concerned, I think it is good that SASS lets clubs determine what THEY want. I've never dealt with any of the other shooting sports, but I don't see the SASS rule books as so incomplete or badly written as to make anyone think SASS was unsafe, unorganized or incompetent. Possum You are entitled to your own opinion BUT, when the national and world championships are being shot with larger targets that ought to be in the rules. The rules ought to be worded to identify the sport per national /world championships. But I do agree that there should be some latitude. YET in my gun clubs case CAS has DECLINED DRAMATICALLY due to this issue. We used to have 4 or 5 posses with 12 to 15 shooters each. But in the last 2 years when we shot it was like one posse with 10 shooters if lucky. The area has plenty of shooters. Two clubs within 2 hours drive generally have better than 60 shooters each match. The host gun club is blind to it and the SASS rule book doesn't help at all. So in the END CAS is shutdown at my current gunclub. DUE TO THIS ISSUE! POORLY WRITTEN rules while permitting latitude do NOT define a tangible sport that can be seen for what it is by the rule book alone. Imagine what would happen if basketball was not defined with a standard height to the rim or diameter of rim. Imagine what would happen if football were not defined with the standard length/width field and a set size ball. PLEASE NOTE THAT my posts are about the gun club that I belong to and are NOT about the club in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hacker, Can you please elaborate. Are you saying you club was doing poorly and now shutdown because there are not set target sizes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Nathan C. Riddles, SASS # 7462 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Don't bother looking for another club. You'll only eventually run into the same problems. Find a local farmer not too far from town to lease you two or three acres of land on a long term lease and if he has a dozer pay him to make about 6-10 shooting bays. If not, hire somebody to do the dirt work. Fence it off and lock the gate with a combination padlock and every member gets the combo. Change the combo once a year and when a member renews his membership he gets the new combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 They give suggestions...seems to work so long as the club has members that travel to other venues to see how successful clubs work. No "baa-baa" for me...but...that's just me. Cheers!!! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hacker, Can you please elaborate. Are you saying you club was doing poorly and now shutdown because there are not set target sizes? It is a long story with a combination of problems. I still blame the lack of preciseness of the SASS rules as part of the decline of the club. There is more but not here. Please note that my post are about my gun club NOT about the one in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Open the link - this is real BS. We are beating our chest, bending over and chanting Mea Culpa. Find a new range/club - they are too far gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Montana, SASS #23907 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Half of those recommendations don't even make sense. There is nothing safer than an action open lever gun as it leaves the car and remaines upright except from loading table to unloading table and easily identifiable from distance. A single action revolver is identifiable from as far away as ones eyes are cabable of seeing and with a hammer down is as safe as it gets. An auto pistol even with hammer down and no magazine can't readily identify its double action capabilties so trigger finger is everything when it comes to safety. The auto pistols are using jacketed ammo and steel target distance becomes important. Mr. DeWitt only asks for the loading, unloading, & scoring personnel to "watch" for safety. At cowboy matches every person at every minute in every capacity is a safety officer and is observing their fellow shooters for adherance to the 170 not 180 rule. The other half of these requirements are founded in ignorance and lack of understanding. Atlanta gun club's own multi gun safety rules require semi auto rifles to be cased or utilize chamber flags and placed in gun supplied gunracks. Muzzles upright vertical while being transported. What's in place to prevent some jasper from pulling his AR mag and casing his gun with a charged round in the chamber? And at the next stage when he pulls it out he discovers he forgot to lock back the bolt by accidentally hitting the trigger. Pistols are cased or holstered unloaded without magazine. Same situation. This sounds like they're requesting more stringent guidelines than what they use. I've shot with the Atlanta Cattle Co. on many occasions since their inception. It has always been a top notch cowboy club. I enjoy shooting there and have found absolutely no instances of unsafe practices. Many of the regular club members are long time cowboy shooters that shoot at 4 or 5 of the Indiana clubs. They've developed kind of a traveling, bragging rights, trash talking circuit between the various clubs while attending each of the various locations shoots. All with the greatest degree of sportsmanship. So, most of these shooters shoot 2 to 4 club shoots a month and have lots of fun and camaraderie doing it. They are doing it right. Unless Mr. DeWitt can be convinced to reconsider, which seems doubtful from the condescending attitude displayed, then Atlanta will just have to be dropped from the circuit. A real shame. ...& just when I was considering joining the Atlanta Gun Club to investigate some of the other shooting disciplines. Mr. Hacker sir, your comments are out of line on this thread. I submit that Spitton O'toole is looking for constructive ideas on how to avert the potential unpleasant outcome of this boards actions. Take your target size problem and SASS rules criticisms to a thread of its own since it does not relate to the issues involved with this cowboy club. I welcome your input once you've attended a shoot at the Atlanta Cattle Co. and can speak from a position of knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Montana, SASS #23907 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Spittoon, lets me know if there is anything I can hep ya'll with. I'll stand with ya'll if ya need. Jes tell me how I kin hep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Many of the line items are easy fixes. But I believe that it is #1 that says you can't uncase your firearms and put them on your cart unless you're within the bay (an extra trip to the truck with gun cases). And you cannot have ammunition on your cart! Can't get around that one. I don't see a good compromise here. As to targets: SASS "recommends" target sizes and distances. Actual size and placement is left up to the individual clubs. Good luck on this one, Barry Sloe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Ta Daaaa!! Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Wasn's much of a shock to see that ya'alls "director of safety" is on the top of the IDPA scores on the clubs website. JEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travelin kid #51083 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Very well put, Max Montana..... I was told that the "safety inspector", that was observing all of these, "violations" was walking around the range,and the club house with a 1911 on his belt, cocked and locked. Just a little bit of hypocrisy there, IMHO. No ammo in the Gun Cart? But it's ok on our Gun Belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Sounds like those black gun guys want the Saturday morning for themselves. Most of the concerns are addressable, with the exception of the gun cart. How in the heck else are you supposed to get from the parking lot to the range? and no ammo on cart? where do you keep it? We are blessed in that our range is in the country, on property that belongs to a SASS TG and regular shooter whot truly loves the game. The range is not a money maker for him as it is not open to the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pete SASS #42168 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Sounds a lot like my club. The Board of Directors role is to communicate the wishes of the lawyers to the club. Since the club is in an urban area, any incident is subject to lots of negative publicity and furthers the efforts of the anti's to shut it down. A buttoned down range is still better than no range. Bottom line, there is a club 200 miles away, located in the desert, that is very liberal in how the rules are interpreted. The choice comes down to convenience and draconian rules or inconvenience, added expense and generous rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Unfortunatly Driftwood is right. It is time to look for a new range. I would say this one will be closed soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 a place to shoot is a clubs largest problem good luck to ya all politics is what makes the world go around and fall flat sometimes too it does sound like weekend shopping for an event, who brings the range the most $$$ after all, that could be a part of the whole deal dont forget liability insurance: that could be a part of the math as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Longhair 27261 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Toon-- Is this the same club that had their club safety officers do all the timi'n, and ro-i'n, with absolutely no understandi'n of sass rules a couple a years ago? Ifi'n it is there is a reason I haven't been back, the fella runni'n our posse, wasn't too overly friendly, questioned everything, wanted ta penalize everyone, was argumentive, and brash, kept sayi'n how he had never seen folks so lax in safety and behavior. Even my daughter, itty-bitty, commented on his attitude and behavior, and said if she ever acted like that, I had her permission ta kick her patootie! I laughed and told her that if I had a haircut like that fella, I'd be grouchy all the time too! Sorry ya gotta go thru this, good luck pard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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