Anti-gun Gun Club

[Spittoon O Tool SASS #62053]

Toon--

 

Is this the same club that had their club safety officers do all the timi'n, and ro-i'n, with absolutely no understandi'n of sass rules a couple a years ago?

Ifi'n it is there is a reason I haven't been back, the fella runni'n our posse, wasn't too overly friendly, questioned everything, wanted ta penalize everyone, was argumentive, and brash, kept sayi'n how he had never seen folks so lax in safety and behavior.

Even my daughter, itty-bitty, commented on his attitude and behavior, and said if she ever acted like that, I had her permission ta kick her patootie!

I laughed and told her that if I had a haircut like that fella, I'd be grouchy all the time too!

Sorry ya gotta go thru this, good luck pard!

Hi Ya, nope different club. The one you described has been changed and operates like cowboy should.

 

Spittoon

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

You are entitled to your own opinion BUT, when the national and world championships are being shot with larger targets that ought to be in the rules.

The rules ought to be worded to identify the sport per national /world championships.

 

But I do agree that there should be some latitude. YET in my gun clubs case CAS has DECLINED DRAMATICALLY due to this issue.

We used to have 4 or 5 posses with 12 to 15 shooters each.

But in the last 2 years when we shot it was like one posse with 10 shooters if lucky.

The area has plenty of shooters. Two clubs within 2 hours drive generally have better than 60 shooters each match.

 

The host gun club is blind to it and the SASS rule book doesn't help at all.

 

So in the END CAS is shutdown at my current gunclub. DUE TO THIS ISSUE!

POORLY WRITTEN rules while permitting latitude do NOT define a tangible sport that can be seen for what it is by the rule book alone.

Imagine what would happen if basketball was not defined with a standard height to the rim or diameter of rim.

Imagine what would happen if football were not defined with the standard length/width field and a set size ball.

 

 

PLEASE NOTE THAT my posts are about the gun club that I belong to and are NOT about the club in the OP.

Really?

 

KK

[travelin kid #51083]

I talked to the Cowboy match director for Atlanta today, there has been a lot, and I mean a lot of talking going on over this issue, since this has been posted on their website. I'm not saying it will be fixed by the August match, but things MIGHT, and I mean MIGHT return to normal SASS guidelines and protocol by the September match. Fingers crossed, it has nothing to do with another discipline wanting that Saturday, it mainly has a lot to do with an over reaction of one safety officer.

 

Furball, this is the Club that "S. L. Cass" started........the club you're refering to does things the way they should be done now.

[Bad Hand]

I went to the club's web page and read the host club's regulations. In it it said that you could only shoot at the range 3 times as a guest before having to join. Does this mean you have to belong to the range to shoot a SASS match there?

[Montana Longhair 27261]

Thanks toon, and mighty travli'n kid,

 

You fellas are the best! Thanks fur the correction!

 

Fcgunfighter at state??

Hint, hint

 

Furball

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Intersting...

 

Let's look at these, point by point...

 

1. SASS members as a matter of routine, remove firearms from cases and place them into their carts in multiple locations, rather than at safety stations.

CORRECTIVE ACTION:
All firearm handling must be done inside of a bay or at a safety
station. Ammunition MAY NOT be present at safety stations at any time. (This
includes on a cart!)

 

Okay... So, you have to take your guns from your car to a "safety station" while still cased, then bring your cart over to the safety station to take your guns out of the cases to put them in the cart. Then you have to take your cart out of the "safety station", take your cases back to your car, then bring your ammo to your cart. Presumably, the cart can still be in a bay, but not at a "safety station" so that you can move your guns/ammo to the loading/unloading table. Wow... Seems like an incredible excersize in unneccesary proceedure.

 

 

2. SASS members handle and show firearms in the clubhouse.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: Handling of firearms is not permitted in the clubhouse. (Other than Instruction, by a certified instructor who has release forms signed specifically for that instruction, and has determined a "safe direction".) Firearms may only be removed from cases or holstered in a bay, or in a safe area.

I sort of see the logic here. Inside the clubhouse, proper precautions of safety in a non shooting area do make sense. It may seem a little like overkill, but I do understand it. If you wanna show somebody your gun inside the clubhouse, go to the shooting area to do it.

During matches, firearms may only be removed from carts/cases/holsters at the direction of the safety officer.

 

Assuming that refers to indoor matches, I see no problems here either.

3. A lack of understanding and proper application of the basic gun safety rules is absent in some SASS members. (i.e. squeezing trigger of holstered gun, unsafe muzzle direction, etc.)

(I find this hard to believe. Everyone makes mistakes, sure, but SASS people are very safety minded. I have trouble believing that htis is a major problem.)

CORRECTIVE ACTION:

A review of the club's rules on safe gun handling shall be done at the next SASS match,
during the safety briefing.

 

Sure. Why not? We have a safety meeting at every match. If a club has special rules, we need to know what they are.

4. SASS members often distract safety officers while they are performing duties at loading and clearing stations. At one point the timer came over and told a safety station
worker that the hammer of a participant was on a live round.... TWICE.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: Distractions (like asking questions, chit chat, etc.) must be minimized at these safety stations for obvious reasons. If a distraction from duties is needed the loading/clearing operation MUST STOP AT ONCE.

 

Uhm.... Okay.... Not sure what the point of this is. I don't see how a few simple questions or chit chat can interfere with the loading/unloading of our weapons. Seems like someone is being awfully picky here.

 

5. Due to the position of the loading/unloading table, it is common for shooters to break 180 while loading/clearing.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION:

Safety officers at these locations must constantly be aware of muzzle direction, and
remind shooters not to break 180.

 

Hmm... So, our 170 rule is too strict? But seriously? I've worked both loading and unloading tables at many a match. I watch the other shooters loading when I am waiting, or after I have already loaded. I've not seen this happen. Logically, I can not say it has never occured, but I don't believe it is "common" in any way.

 

6. A few members had their finger on the trigger while loading/clearing.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION:
Safety officers at these stations must be aware of shooter trigger finger
placement at all times. Again, this is an individual issue, not a systemic
one. Remind those loading and clearing to keep their muzzles in a safe
direction and keep their fingers off the trigger.

 

"Not a systemic" problem. So, that means that on rare occasions, someone makes a mistake? Also, how do you load or clear a Colt without touching the trigger? Half cock, load 1. Skip one. Load 4. Cock. Lower hammer onto empty chamber. Impossible to do without touching the trigger. Someone is really picking at nits, or showing just plain ignorance here...

7. Gun handling & some handling of loaded guns takes place while shooters are down
range.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: It is understood that this is a common practice at SASS matches and has been accepted as operational necessity only because there are safety officers at the locations where this takes place. However shooters move firearms to and from their carts while others are down range as well. All of this gun handling is in conflict
with club rules and safe common practice. That puts the club in a tough
position of trying to reinvent the wheel for SASS matches. The safety committee
recommends the three required scoring officers face up range after scoring is
complete, to watch for any unsafe gun handling while members are moving firearms
to and from loading/clearing stations. This would bring the total to 5 safety
officers observing part or all of the operation at any given time.

 

Oh good grief... No one ever brings their loaded guns to whereever they have to be staged until the range is clear. So the only thing this can refer to is people taking their unloaded guns off their carts to the loading table, or from the unloading table to their carts while someone else is shooting. So that means.... Well, a buncha people looking around for "unsafe gun handling" and only allowing people to approach the loading table or go back to their carts between shooters after the range is cleared and before the next shooter takes his or her guns out to stage them. This will make shooting of stages impossibly slow. I also have the feeling that these "5 safety officers" are not a part of the posse. This is just designed to make things difficult, if not impossible.

8. The furthest targets are often not setup against the birm.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: Instruct those who setup stages to start with targets against the birm and work outward. This gives the maximum protection from a projectile getting out of the bay.

 

Uhm... Okay... So the farthest targets must be against the berm. But it's okay for identical targets being struck by the same bullets to be not against the berm as long as they are not the farthest target? Does this not make any sense? Solution. Put one honking BIG target against the berm. Then set the rest of the targets as desired for the stage. At some point, one shot is directed at the big one. Gee, let's create a rule that is so absurd on the face that there is an obvious way to comply and still do what is deemed unsafe.

9. Steel targets are engaged closer than 10 yards.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: Update to ACC
P&P. Our website indicates 10 yards is the minimum safe distance to engage
steel targets with a handgun. This rule was in place prior to ACC installing
fixed steel for member use. But match directors advised 7 yards was within
regulation of several shooting disciplines. Seven yards minimum is
acceptable.

 

So... Is this a problem or not? If the rules say no closer than 10, then set them at 10. But, if "Seven yards is acceptable" why is this even being mentioned?

 

For the record, I think any club can set any minimium distance it wants.

CONCLUSION:

The ACC Safety Committee recommends the above corrective
action be implemented at once until such a time as any needed alternatives can
be discussed and put into place.

 

In other words, let's make it REALLY difficult to hold a SASS Match at this club

 

On a personal note, I would like to say that everything I
witnessed above was simply human nature/error or lack of knowledge. I did not
find ANYONE who had a cavalier attitude toward safety. I think some gentle
reminders about fingers, muzzles, and distractions will go a long way toward
increasing safety at SASS events. A review for the TRUE meaning of the gun
safety rules is also vital to safe match operations at
ACC.

 

So... Becuase of few folks made a mistake, your gonna make it next to impossible to hold a certain tupe of shooting event. I see a lot of over reaction and broad brush statements here. As well as a lot of overstating of non existant problems.

Randall DeWitt

Director of Safety

Atlanta Conservation Club

Please forgive me, but his title should be, Director of Irritation and making the experience of doing a Cowboy Shoot here so irrirating that nobody will want to.

I hate to say it, but I really don't think I'd want to shoot a match at this place. It's just not worth the aggrivation.

,

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

I belonged to a club that had a chief safety officer like the one described. After getting a load of crap about eating a cookie on the line (was running the timer and getting low blood sugar), I resigned as MD for the club. The club decided to fire the chief safety officer as I was the 3rd MD quitting at about the same time. Both the steel and pins MD's were also catching flack from this chief range Nazi. He was a retired E-8 that was probably getting senile. The MD's unresigned after he was gone from his lofty position.

 

This club has a rule about no gun handling except on the line. We keep them cased on carts and uncase them in a shooting bay. The "no ammo in a safe area" is an IDPA requirement.

[Madd Mike #8595]

politics

nothing to see here folks

please move on

 

in other words, either work it out

or find a more friendly place

 

this stuff happens

just sayin that mileage will always vary

 

oh wait

everyone is just venting

 

thats cool

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

Looks like politics to me. You can move or .... get some cowboys to step up, take on some responsibility and get on the Board.

 

Chancy

[Dash Caliber]

Well...as a corporate safety officer myself...I hate to spit in your Wheaties..but the man has some points...the only thing I see that needs some cooperation on is the Gun cart/safe area issue. From most other diciplines that deal with a single gun the safe area seems reasonable..as say the auto pistol to holster...I dont see any three gunners behaving much different than Cowboys with their carts...My suggestion would be to simply have carts lined up next to loading table and designate that as safe area against a berm. This would alieviate his concern over observation and rule picking... In any org you have to go along to get along...I would suggest a small meeting of say 3-4 very pleasant attitude shooters with equipment to discuss ways to make everybody..as we say here in the South.."Comfortable" with the situation...Then again...you could have a bug pickin control freak on your hands smiling at you while he picks a fight...If you give him a fight...he wins.

[travelin kid #51083]

Well...as a corporate safety officer myself...I hate to spit in your Wheaties..but the man has some points...the only thing I see that needs some cooperation on is the Gun cart/safe area issue. From most other diciplines that deal with a single gun the safe area seems reasonable..as say the auto pistol to holster...I dont see any three gunners behaving much different than Cowboys with their carts...My suggestion would be to simply have carts lined up next to loading table and designate that as safe area against a berm. This would alieviate his concern over observation and rule picking... In any org you have to go along to get along...I would suggest a small meeting of say 3-4 very pleasant attitude shooters with equipment to discuss ways to make everybody..as we say here in the South.."Comfortable" with the situation...Then again...you could have a bug pickin control freak on your hands smiling at you while he picks a fight...If you give him a fight...he wins.

I do agree with you on recognizing some of the problems that were observed, there were some problems. But I do not agree with the fixes to these problems outlined in the "Corrective actions" I believe them to be over reactionary and some what more of a punishment than a corrective action.

[travelin kid #51083]

Back to top, for those thinking about going there this Saturday...........

[Key Hay]

When I win the Lottery I'm buildin a Cowboy town and the only Semi Autos allowed will be for Wild Bunch. And SASS Rules will be the norm!!!

[Mustang Gregg]

Don't bother looking for another club. You'll only eventually run into the same problems. Find a local farmer not too far from town to lease you two or three acres of land on a long term lease and if he has a dozer pay him to make about 6-10 shooting bays. If not, hire somebody to do the dirt work. Fence it off and lock the gate with a combination padlock and every member gets the combo. Change the combo once a year and when a member renews his membership he gets the new combo.

 

Pard, that sounds good. And that may work in TX.

But it's awful hard to do that in most parts of the country.

Most ranchers and farmers aren't going to want the liability, unwanted dirtwork, EPA, zoning problems to lease out 3 acres.

I'm sending you a PM.

 

Good luck!

Mustang Gregg

TG for ENGC

[Flat Water Bob]

One or two of Atlanta's (safety) criticisms may have some validity, but most were just crap! It is also my understanding that the club does not want to engage in discussion. I find it interesting that this club can turn away 30 plus SASS shooters, if for no other reason than the dollars generated. Sooooo, I agree with the above comments....the club has other plans for the second Saturday of the month and it does not include SASS. Time to look for another venue.

 

OH, and hello to Brother Riddles.

[travelin kid #51083]

What's ironic about this situation is that when SASS was introduced to this Club several years ago by the late "SL Cass", he showed the club the way we did things, and the President of the Club at that time, shot Cowboy! No problems at all with the way we did things, they welcomed us and wanted attendance to grow, nothing has changed except the regime that now runs the Club. The self named “SafetyMonger” who imposed these punishments claims that no rules have changed, that this is the way it should be done, under club rules, and the way it should have always been done all the time Cowboy has been shooting there.

 

I know several shooters of other disciplines that shoot at this Club, and there is no one that wants that Saturday as far as they know, it just looks like a case of anti-SASS Cowboy Shooting and the way we do things.

[Col. Nathan C. Riddles, SASS # 7462]

 

Pard, that sounds good. And that may work in TX.

But it's awful hard to do that in most parts of the country.

Most ranchers and farmers aren't going to want the liability, unwanted dirtwork, EPA, zoning problems to least 3 acres.

I'm sending you a PM.

 

Good luck!

Mustang Gregg

TG for ENGC

Greg, that certainly does work here. That's what CTS did. We had problems with our host club so we found a rancher that was willing to lease us some land & hired a man with a D-9 Cat to do the dirt work we needed. Our insurance policy covers the land owner also.

I also know of two other clubs here & another in another state that does exactly the same thing. The farmer/rancher could be paid to do the dirt work just like hiring any contractor to do it.

 

Oh, BTW, most states don't have zoning laws outside city limits & EPA doesn't have people to drive around the countryside looking for private shooting ranges located on private property. The only way they'd know about it is if somebody complained to them.

 

PS:

 

Howdy Bro. FWB

[Madd Mike #8595]

 

Pard, that sounds good. And that may work in TX.

But it's awful hard to do that in most parts of the country.

Most ranchers and farmers aren't going to want the liability, unwanted dirtwork, EPA, zoning problems to least 3 acres.

I'm sending you a PM.

 

Good luck!

Mustang Gregg

TG for ENGC

yup

its the liability thing, to much risk for little or no return

its a sad state of affairs now days

sue happy society has changed our lives for ever

[Col. Nathan C. Riddles, SASS # 7462]

yup

its the liability thing, to much risk for little or no return

its a sad state of affairs now days

sue happy society has changed our lives for ever

Well, as I said above our liability insurance policy also covers the land owner up to $3,000,000.00, as well as the club. Any club that is shooting without a liability insuance policy is asking for big trouble.

[travelin kid #51083]

Back to topic at hand,

 

It looks like we are losing Cowboy at a Club close to the largest city in Indiana. Due to the club just not understanding SASS and the way we do things. Well they did when SASS first came there, but they had a change of heart. I belong to a Club close to Brookston and in our operating rules it states, "the rules of a sanctioned discipline will supersede the rules of the club", if you have a Cowboy Club at a range that also shares IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun, BEWARE, do all you can to keep SASS clubs alive.....

[Digger mike 1]

So is anybody going this weekend?

[Flat Water Bob]

Digger....I plan to be there unless I hear otherwise from other cowboys.

[Money Bags]

The wife and I will not be going. After reading the letter Padre posted on the Deer Creek website the wife said she did not feel comfortable shooting at ACC any longer.

[travelin kid #51083]

I just got off the phone with Hutch, THERE WILL BE A MATCH THIS SATURDAY, as I understand it there will be inspectors there for the match, do not unload guns form your car unless you are at the safety table. As far as Ammo, I'm not sure when you can unload it, and put it in your cart, after reading his corrective actions. If you do not follow these rules, or want to follow these rules, among the others listed, you will be kindly asked to leave....

 

Keep tabs on the Atlanta Cattle Company's website for updates between now and Saturday.......

 

(FYI, for those of who have not yet, read the response letter to Padre PW on "Deer Creek Regulators" website from Mr. Randall Dewitt, rather eye opening to the attitudes we are trying to work with....)

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

I encourage everyone who can attend this match to do so. Yes, sounds like a big hassle and probably the proverbial handwriting is on the wall. However, the powers that be need to see just how much revenue they will lose if/when they tell the CAS shooters they are no longer welcome at that facility. I do believe safety trumps revenue, but sometimes safety can be used to further a different agenda.

 

Good luck to all of you. We might all find ourselves in a similar circumstance some day.

[travelin kid #51083]

Message from the TG at Atlanta Cattle Company,

 

 

http://www.atlantacattlecompany.com/

[Flat Water Bob]

Well, I was very much looking forward to a good SASS day at the range this weekend AND to paying very close attention to all matters relating to range safty, but based upon what I have read today – Atlanta is not so interested in keeping SASS that they are willing to change rules to accommodate. Specifically, the rule requiring the transfer of guns from the vehicle to the safe table IN GUN CASES, to the cart, and then back for ammo (and repeating the process at the end of the day.) Atlanta can claim safety, but I believe it is more a matter of digging in their heels against commonly accepted SASS firearms safety conventions. I won’t be there and I strongly encourage others to follow suit. Sorry Hutch and Travelin' Kid….great effort on your part.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Wow...

 

http://www.atlantacattlecompany.com/

 

"Their members will be there in Force, to take you by the hand and show you how to handle a firearm."

 

:excl:

 

Good luck to y'all...

 

GG ~

[StirrupTrouble]

Wow...

 

http://www.atlantacattlecompany.com/

 

"Their members will be there in Force, to take you by the hand and show you how to handle a firearm."

 

:excl:

 

Good luck to y'all...

 

GG ~

 

Wow....that just makes a fella feel so welcome there

[Mustang Gregg]

 

SASS has an excellent safety record.

And SASS has a lot of uninjured members (90,000+) for only being around since the 1980's.

 

Are other shooting sports safer????? I think not.

 

Mustang Gregg, TG

[travelin kid #51083]

Back to top, for those thinking about going there this Saturday......

 

Just talked to a couple of Cowboys on the phone who had not heard about this yet and were getting ready for a long drive Saturday

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Good luck...hope it all works out for the best.

 

Me...I'd tell 'em to stick their rules up their...well...you get the idea.

 

Phantom

[rustyfinger 22618]

I won't be there.I will not spend my time or money on a club that does not deserves it.

[Digger mike 1]

So I know who is not going. Who is going?

[Frenchy Yukon]

It sounds to me like I would have more fun going to the Dentist and having a tooth pulled. Sorry Doc! I will not be going back to spend my money there. Hopefully with a little luck and alot of hard work we will have a place to shoot cowboy on the second weekend of the month around here real soon. See you all on the Trail but not THERE!!!!!