Anti-gun Gun Club

[Utah Bob #35998]

Some shooters just don't like CAS. They don't understand it, think it's silly and have no respect for us. I suspect they never will.

Too bad they run clubs and have agendas.

Head em up and move em out, I reckon.

[Digger mike 1]

So how did it go?

[AceDerringer]

So how was the shoot today

[Gary O]

Hay Guys, the shoot at Atlanta Cattle Comp. went very good, I wish you all was there to shoot, it turned out not to be as bad as everyone thought. My brother and I will be back next month and I hope you all come back to shoot.

 

Gary O.

[travelin kid #51083]

I saw Chinky Jim at the Lafayette Gun show, he said it did not go too bad. Seven shooters showed up. He believes a big breakdown in communication has lead to a lot of assumptions, the club does want to keep SASS there. Time will tell how it goes.....

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 shooters??

 

[Cross-Eyed Terry]

The shoot yesterday ran fairly smooth, we only had 5 shooters. The Atlanta Conservation Club expects shooters to use one of three Safe Tables when removing weapons from their cases and returning weapons to their cases, or drive down to one of five shooting bays to unload/ load your vehicles (actually MUCH easier).

 

This will take a few more minutes and be a little inconvenient, but not bad. I think this is reasonable and will meet my brother there next month, hope you decide to join us.

 

Huge thanks to Hutch and everyone who worked this issue behind the scene, this is not as bad as it started.

[travelin kid #51083]

Was there any issues about the unload and unload tables? Are we still able to run them as usual?

That was one of the hot points

[Fargo Bill, SASS #4942]

I do not like to read obituaries. It is difficult to deal with losses. Sounds like this ailing one needs a powerful medicine man to avoid the inevitable. Lost shooters are very difficult to recapture.

[Cross-Eyed Terry]

No trouble Travelin Kid. They only want one shooter loading at a time. Two could be staged, the second person to stage would not be able to start loading until the first is finished.

[travelin kid #51083]

No trouble Travelin Kid. They only want one shooter loading at a time. Two could be staged, the second person to stage would not be able to start loading until the first is finished.

 

So we can't run the loading tables as usual, two can be staged, meaning two can be waiting to load, or two can be loaded waiting to shoot...

 

Can firearms still be pointed into the berm while loading, or do they have to be pointed down range while loading?

[Flat Water Bob]

Fargo Bill? Fargo Bill? Heck, I thought you dropped off the edge of the map. Where you been, Fargo????

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

No trouble Travelin Kid. They only want one shooter loading at a time. Two could be staged, the second person to stage would not be able to start loading until the first is finished.

Just close it down.

 

All over the country we are doing just fine safety wise without these draconian rules.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Phantom

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

No trouble Travelin Kid. They only want one shooter loading at a time. Two could be staged, the second person to stage would not be able to start loading until the first is finished.

No trouble?? That's gonna make for a very long day for a posse of any size Maybe ya''li could go watch over their IDPA match and rewrite their rules for them Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Badlands Bob #61228]

If you don't have more than 5 or 7 shooters, you'll probably need to only load person one at a time.

 

Sorry to hear about your problems. Gun club politics can be as nasty as church politics sometimes.

[SafetyMongral]

Intersting...

 

Let's look at these, point by point...

 

1. SASS members as a matter of routine, remove firearms from cases and place them into their carts in multiple locations, rather than at safety stations.

CORRECTIVE ACTION:

All firearm handling must be done inside of a bay or at a safety

station. Ammunition MAY NOT be present at safety stations at any time. (This

includes on a cart!)

 

Okay... So, you have to take your guns from your car to a "safety station" while still cased, then bring your cart over to the safety station to take your guns out of the cases to put them in the cart. Then you have to take your cart out of the "safety station", take your cases back to your car, then bring your ammo to your cart. Presumably, the cart can still be in a bay, but not at a "safety station" so that you can move your guns/ammo to the loading/unloading table. Wow... Seems like an incredible excersize in unneccesary proceedure.

All you have to do is drive down to the bay, unload your vehicle onto the table, uncase and clear your firearms, place everything you want on/in your cart, go park. ROCKET SCIENCE!

2. SASS members handle and show firearms in the clubhouse.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: Handling of firearms is not permitted in the clubhouse. (Other than Instruction, by a certified instructor who has release forms signed specifically for that instruction, and has determined a "safe direction".) Firearms may only be removed from cases or holstered in a bay, or in a safe area.

I sort of see the logic here. Inside the clubhouse, proper precautions of safety in a non shooting area do make sense. It may seem a little like overkill, but I do understand it. If you wanna show somebody your gun inside the clubhouse, go to the shooting area to do it.

During matches, firearms may only be removed from carts/cases/holsters at the direction of the safety officer.

 

Assuming that refers to indoor matches, I see no problems here either.

 

3. A lack of understanding and proper application of the basic gun safety rules is absent in some SASS members. (i.e. squeezing trigger of holstered gun, unsafe muzzle direction, etc.)

(I find this hard to believe. Everyone makes mistakes, sure, but SASS people are very safety minded. I have trouble believing that htis is a major problem.)

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION:

A review of the club's rules on safe gun handling shall be done at the next SASS match,

during the safety briefing.

 

Sure. Why not? We have a safety meeting at every match. If a club has special rules, we need to know what they are.

 

4. SASS members often distract safety officers while they are performing duties at loading and clearing stations. At one point the timer came over and told a safety station

worker that the hammer of a participant was on a live round.... TWICE.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: Distractions (like asking questions, chit chat, etc.) must be minimized at these safety stations for obvious reasons. If a distraction from duties is needed the loading/clearing operation MUST STOP AT ONCE.

 

Uhm.... Okay.... Not sure what the point of this is. I don't see how a few simple questions or chit chat can interfere with the loading/unloading of our weapons. Seems like someone is being awfully picky here.

PICKY? Two different shooters get to the line with the hammer on a live round in ten minutes and you think we are being picky?

5. Due to the position of the loading/unloading table, it is common for shooters to break 180 while loading/clearing.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION:

Safety officers at these locations must constantly be aware of muzzle direction, and

remind shooters not to break 180.

 

Hmm... So, our 170 rule is too strict? But seriously? I've worked both loading and unloading tables at many a match. I watch the other shooters loading when I am waiting, or after I have already loaded. I've not seen this happen. Logically, I can not say it has never occured, but I don't believe it is "common" in any way.

Well it happened multiple times in my presence. Just a gentle reminder from the RO at the table will fix this in a jiffy.

6. A few members had their finger on the trigger while loading/clearing.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION:

Safety officers at these stations must be aware of shooter trigger finger

placement at all times. Again, this is an individual issue, not a systemic

one. Remind those loading and clearing to keep their muzzles in a safe

direction and keep their fingers off the trigger.

 

"Not a systemic" problem. So, that means that on rare occasions, someone makes a mistake? Also, how do you load or clear a Colt without touching the trigger? Half cock, load 1. Skip one. Load 4. Cock. Lower hammer onto empty chamber. Impossible to do without touching the trigger. Someone is really picking at nits, or showing just plain ignorance here...

 

You don't have to have your finger on the trigger CONSTANTLY to load or unload ANY firearm.

 

7. Gun handling & some handling of loaded guns takes place while shooters are down

range.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: It is understood that this is a common practice at SASS matches and has been accepted as operational necessity only because there are safety officers at the locations where this takes place. However shooters move firearms to and from their carts while others are down range as well. All of this gun handling is in conflict

with club rules and safe common practice. That puts the club in a tough

position of trying to reinvent the wheel for SASS matches. The safety committee

recommends the three required scoring officers face up range after scoring is

complete, to watch for any unsafe gun handling while members are moving firearms

to and from loading/clearing stations. This would bring the total to 5 safety

officers observing part or all of the operation at any given time.

 

Oh good grief... No one ever brings their loaded guns to whereever they have to be staged until the range is clear. So the only thing this can refer to is people taking their unloaded guns off their carts to the loading table, or from the unloading table to their carts while someone else is shooting. So that means.... Well, a buncha people looking around for "unsafe gun handling" and only allowing people to approach the loading table or go back to their carts between shooters after the range is cleared and before the next shooter takes his or her guns out to stage them. This will make shooting of stages impossibly slow. I also have the feeling that these "5 safety officers" are not a part of the posse. This is just designed to make things difficult, if not impossible.

Guns are being loaded and handled while others are down range. This is a violation of club rules. We have agreed to let this slide if you maintain diligence in this area.

 

 

8. The furthest targets are often not setup against the birm.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: Instruct those who setup stages to start with targets against the birm and work outward. This gives the maximum protection from a projectile getting out of the bay.

 

Uhm... Okay... So the farthest targets must be against the berm. But it's okay for identical targets being struck by the same bullets to be not against the berm as long as they are not the farthest target? Does this not make any sense? Solution. Put one honking BIG target against the berm. Then set the rest of the targets as desired for the stage. At some point, one shot is directed at the big one. Gee, let's create a rule that is so absurd on the face that there is an obvious way to comply and still do what is deemed unsafe.

 

Are you really that silly? Starting at the back berm keeps the entire course of fire deeper in the bay instead of having them way out in the middle needlessly. Do I need to break out the geometry to explain why this is safer? REALLY?

 

9. Steel targets are engaged closer than 10 yards.

 

CORRECTIVE ACTION: Update to ACC

P&P. Our website indicates 10 yards is the minimum safe distance to engage

steel targets with a handgun. This rule was in place prior to ACC installing

fixed steel for member use. But match directors advised 7 yards was within

regulation of several shooting disciplines. Seven yards minimum is

acceptable.

 

So... Is this a problem or not? If the rules say no closer than 10, then set them at 10. But, if "Seven yards is acceptable" why is this even being mentioned?

It's mentioned because it was brought up in the initial report, then discussed at the board meeting.

For the record, I think any club can set any minimium distance it wants.

There are established safe minimums that are universal. Yes, they can set what they want. But going against established safe practice increases liability dramatically.

 

 

 

CONCLUSION:

The ACC Safety Committee recommends the above corrective

action be implemented at once until such a time as any needed alternatives can

be discussed and put into place.

 

In other words, let's make it REALLY difficult to hold a SASS Match at this club

 

Actually it's really simple. Comply or don't come. Those that came this weekend saw how EASY it was, and had a good shoot.

 

 

On a personal note, I would like to say that everything I

witnessed above was simply human nature/error or lack of knowledge. I did not

find ANYONE who had a cavalier attitude toward safety. I think some gentle

reminders about fingers, muzzles, and distractions will go a long way toward

increasing safety at SASS events. A review for the TRUE meaning of the gun

safety rules is also vital to safe match operations at

ACC.

 

So... Becuase of few folks made a mistake, your gonna make it next to impossible to hold a certain tupe of shooting event. I see a lot of over reaction and broad brush statements here. As well as a lot of overstating of non existant problems.

 

A few folks made several mistakes week after week, exponentially more than any other shooting discipline we host.

 

It's easy to shoot at ACC. Just get the facts rather than make all sorts of froth & BS by yackin' your jaw!

 

Randall DeWitt

Director of Safety

Atlanta Conservation Club

 

 

Please forgive me, but his title should be, Director of Irritation and making the experience of doing a Cowboy Shoot here so irrirating that nobody will want to.

I hate to say it, but I really don't think I'd want to shoot a match at this place. It's just not worth the aggrivation.

I'm going to hold you to that!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

,

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just let the club die.

 

They seem to know what's best for them...and that's their right of course.

 

And it also seems that they are excellent PR folks too!

 

Phantom

[rustyfinger 22618]

And you wonder why you had 5 shooters.seem to worked for you . What happens if you had 35shooters it would take half the morning just getting trucks unloaded.then it would take rest of the day to shoot3stages.so I want wish you good luck with your FIVE shooters.

[travelin kid #51083]

Man, attitudes are everything, and this high and mighty attitude that is being taken is wrong, very wrong.....

 

There are ways to acomplish your goals without being so very heavy handed

 

It is known that we get rushed near the end of the match there by one of the disciplines that wants to set up the bays for their next match, if 30 shooters show up, under current rules it will take a lot longer to run a match..... that discipline that rushes us will not be happy

 

There is a claim that the rules never changed, that they have been in place for years and years, but when the late Stan Larson showed the board at ACC how we did things when presenting SASS to the club in 2009, the board welcomed us with open arms, now it's a problem all of a sudden, why?

 

I know there a lot that wonder if the other disciplines there are being held to the same intense scrutiny that SASS shooters are being held to

[travelin kid #51083]

"All you have to do is drive down to the bay, unload your vehicle onto the table, uncase and clear your firearms, place everything you want on/in your cart, go park. ROCKET SCIENCE"

 

Uhm, but the way it is explianed earlier we can't put our ammo on or in our cart at that time, when are we supposed to put our ammo in the cart???

[Flat Water Bob]

I think I am seeing a bit of movement toward accommodating the SASS shooters. There are still another 30 SASS shooters who used to attend Atlanta matches watching this matter very closely. I would like to encourage the Atlanta club to seriously considering modification of their regulations to allow SASS shooters to unload directly from their vehicles to their carts...with long arms' actions open and empty, muzzles up, and revolvers empty and holstered. Those simple and long-standing SASS safety standards will bring back the SASS crowd back to Atlanta. I am anxious to participate.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Just let the club die.

 

They seem to know what's best for them...and that's their right of course.

 

And it also seems that they are excellent PR folks too!

 

Phantom

yup -

 

 

All you have to do is drive down to the bay, unload your vehicle onto the table, uncase and clear your firearms, place everything you want on/in your cart, go park. ROCKET SCIENCE!

PICKY? Two different shooters get to the line with the hammer on a live round in ten minutes and you think we are being picky?

Well it happened multiple times in my presence. Just a gentle reminder from the RO at the table will fix this in a jiffy.

Guns are being loaded and handled while others are down range. This is a violation of club rules. We have agreed to let this slide if you maintain diligence in this area.

It's mentioned because it was brought up in the initial report, then discussed at the board meeting.

There are established safe minimums that are universal. Yes, they can set what they want. But going against established safe practice increases liability dramatically.

I'm going to hold you to that!

 

You don't like CAS. It's obvious you don't respect the safety record it has over the last 30 years.

 

No wonder there were only 7 shooters at YOUR club.

 

GG ~

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Hate to see it but it's very apparent that CAS is not wanted there anymore. Club politics can be VERY nasty and usually the nastiest wins. But I have seen a small few stand their ground and common sense prevails. The restrictions that have been put in place are very strategic. Sort of "we can't fire ya so we're going to make you so miserable that you quit" sort of deal. In the end I hope the individuals that have pushed this feel proud of themselves. Just like the anti's hide behind the children they are using safety as their weapon.

[travelin kid #51083]

Just a note FYI the September match at ACC falls on the same weekend as the Hoosier Ambush, at the GREAT Paradise Pass, I just brought that to Hutch's attention....

 

In other words the September match will more than likely be cancelled...

 

(Another FYI, was informed that this Safety Director had not a clue that to cycle the cylinder on a Colt clone you have to have your finger on the trigger and operate the hammer, this was shown and demonstrated to him last Saturday at the match)

[Gary O]

Hay Travelin Kid,

 

When we showed him how and why we put our finger on the trigger he said that would be fine, I don't think he had ever fired a single action. Just my option.

 

Gary O

[Harvey Mushman]

Just how (and by whom?) does a "Safety Director" who doesn't understand the differences between Single Action, Double Action, Semi-Auto, etc. get qualified at any competent range IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?!

 

Something seriously wrong here. SAD, and perhaps dangerous..

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Howdy,

 

Sure do hope the Atlanta Cattle Co. & ICC can resolve the issues and SASS/CAS matches continue with normal attendence. Seems like some issues have been resolved and perahps more will in the future. Increasing the safety areas in the parking lot might help. Good luck!

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

[Boon Doggle]

Hate to see any type of shooting club fall apart because of a few people on power trips.

 

But, life is to short to shoot where you are not welcome.