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Wyandot Jim

Why Don't We Compete for Money In CAS

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I have been involved with many archery tournaments where money was awarded for shooting skills. Every one of those clubs died, most because the core group of shooters, lets call them the gamers, were winning all of the money. No way to stop it. They shot the best of anyone and deserved it.

When we shoot at our cowboy club there are three phases to the shoot. The before shoot fun, the shoot itself and the after shoot meal.

Ad money and the shoot becomes a one trick pony. The first and last phases are gone.

Add some sort of gimmick that would pay someone $10? What's the point? I'm not going to put out any effort to win $10. Now you make it $100 for a category win with $1000 for Overall going to $5000 at Regionals and $10000 at EOT and I would like to play right up to the point where I realized that it was my money and the other mediocre shooters that were paying the good shooters to come and embarrass me. Then I would go looking for a game that allowed me to play for fun.

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I have been involved with many archery tournaments where money was awarded for shooting skills. Every one of those clubs died, most because the core group of shooters, lets call them the gamers, were winning all of the money. No way to stop it. They shot the best of anyone and deserved it.

When we shoot at our cowboy club there are three phases to the shoot. The before shoot fun, the shoot itself and the after shoot meal.

Ad money and the shoot becomes a one trick pony. The first and last phases are gone.

Add some sort of gimmick that would pay someone $10? What's the point? I'm not going to put out any effort to win $10. Now you make it $100 for a category win with $1000 for Overall going to $5000 at Regionals and $10000 at EOT and I would like to play right up to the point where I realized that it was my money and the other mediocre shooters that were paying the good shooters to come and embarrass me. Then I would go looking for a game that allowed me to play for fun.

 

YEP!! What my buddy NOZ said!!

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Ole Jim gotta have some support from somewhere. Thought I'd kinda stand behind him a bit. So far, I havent seen any solid info that what WJ is mentioning would be bad, just that "I don't like it and won't shoot there if they play for money."

I compete in a sport which is very similar to SASS in many ways, and different in significant ways as well. One way in which it differs is to have cash/prizes for the shooters based on placement in the match. I have seen this sport take off, and watched in dismay as one of the most fun activities bestowed upon this earth has slowly shrunk, maintained only through the sheer determination and hard work of those who are devoted to it. For a long time I couldn't understand why a game which is so innovative, fun, and well managed would be so underpopulated. The only thing I've ever heard which comes close to an explanation was "I don't want to contribute to the Bud and Spence college fund".

 

As far as the tax issue goes, well, it seems it doesn't go very far. There have been many sources linked and explanations given by those who know better than me previous in the thread.

 

Do I wish I could make money shooting SASS? You betcha! The problem is that there's no money to be made shooting SASS. Any money you make as a shooter will be a portion of the money made by some other enterprise selling to other shooters. Even then, it's typically not profit as such, but a way of defraying cost. My performance at a match has great difficulty directly equating to a good or service provided to another. If someone who has sold/given me something claims that their product "helped me and it can help you too!" well, that's information which is freely available to everyone now. Putting money into the mix just invites those who would to overemphasize the benefits of a product sold by their benefactor, and underemphasize its drawbacks. This is not what I would call a positive effect.

 

Hope this speaks directly to your questions as it seems many others are speaking to your name.

Bud

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Bud,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question as to the whys.

 

In my original post I mentioned the tax write off as a way to defer some of the cost. That would be your choice and yours alone. I see a lot of vendors that show up at a match and sell very little. Do they take a loss and still get to shoot? Who knows, but they do get to shoot. I never intended this question to have the big bucks involved and trying to make a living at it. That would be pretty stupid thinking on my part. If there would be a way to defray some of the cost. Why not?

 

I'm not famous or a big time shooter for sure. Last year I did go to 10 big matches in four different states. This year only five and all in Texas. Why because it cost a lot to play at the big matches. I know you are well aware the cost of that. Yea it was my choice and I have a great time doing it..

 

All I was trying to do was to get some GOOD info and maybe help our game grow.

 

Like I said it worked in competition aerobatic contest for the some that could write it off.

 

Like I tried to point out. All the money would come form the ones shooting in the category. So with all the categories we have I don't think it would amount to the BIG bucks to live on or cheat over.

 

Thanks again and take care Pard,

 

WJ

 

PS Sure glad to have Joe Darter back in Texas

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While a couple thousand dollars is nice to have

 

I don't really need it

 

I like to do well to obtain "bragging rights"

 

At my age that is much more important

 

This has always bee a "bragging rights" game

 

Prefer to keep it that way

 

More friendly -- something to just enjoy

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... In my original post I mentioned the tax write off as a way to defer some of the cost. That would be your choice and yours alone. I see a lot of vendors that show up at a match and sell very little. Do they take a loss and still get to shoot? Who knows, but they do get to shoot. I never intended this question to have the big bucks involved and trying to make a living at it. That would be pretty stupid thinking on my part. If there would be a way to defray some of the cost. Why not?...

 

Hi Jim,

 

Please read this about hobby income and deductions.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Bud,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question as to the whys.

 

In my original post I mentioned the tax write off as a way to defer some of the cost. That would be your choice and yours alone. I see a lot of vendors that show up at a match and sell very little. Do they take a loss and still get to shoot? Who knows, but they do get to shoot. I never intended this question to have the big bucks involved and trying to make a living at it. That would be pretty stupid thinking on my part. If there would be a way to defray some of the cost. Why not?

 

I'm not famous or a big time shooter for sure. Last year I did go to 10 big matches in four different states. This year only five and all in Texas. Why because it cost a lot to play at the big matches. I know you are well aware the cost of that. Yea it was my choice and I have a great time doing it..

 

All I was trying to do was to get some GOOD info and maybe help our game grow.

 

Like I said it worked in competition aerobatic contest for the some that could write it off.

 

Like I tried to point out. All the money would come form the ones shooting in the category. So with all the categories we have I don't think it would amount to the BIG bucks to live on or cheat over.

 

Thanks again and take care Pard,

 

WJ

 

PS Sure glad to have Joe Darter back in Texas

Purely from the tax perspective, I'm pretty sure that all who can already do write off expenses, and bringing in cash prizes would not make a lick of difference.

 

I also do take issue with you on your other statement. WE MISS JOE DARTER IN CALIFORNIA!

But maybe I'll get to see you and him at CAC...

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I was composing a really great comment on this topic when Bud came along and said it so much better, so I'll start over. On the issue of tax strategies, as a former tax practitioner who has represented clients from mom and pops to Fortune 500 CEOs, the rule of thumb is that all expenses are deductible, right up until the IRS notifies you that your return has been selected for further examination. The good news is that the professional fees paid to your tax attorney and accountant to represent you in the audit are deductible; the bad news is that the additional taxes, penalties and interest because of disallowed deductions are not. It's actually much more complicated when a competitor's situation begins to resemble a legitimate business concern, however, always consult your own tax professional. An analogy is that if the chance of winning a few dollars somehow legitimized related expenses as being deductible, then I'm going to find a slot machine to poke a few coins into on each of my trips. Won't work, unless Congress rewrites the tax code.

 

Earlier in this thread, Anvil Al mentioned how "sport money" affects horse showing. Some of my horses and my two daughters have been sufficiently competitive to have won a lot of cash and many valuable prizes over the past decade plus. As a part-time trophy hunting outfitter, my clients and I have won a lot of prizes in big deer contests. Believe me, money, even a little, changes a sport. In CAS, there are a heck of a lot more marginal shooters than great shooters, and this sport needs every one of them to turn out and bring a friend. In my opinion, we diminished the pure enjoyment of deer hunting when we started big deer contests and began given out cash prizes to the most successful hunter. The way it should be, is the most successful hunter is the one who has the most fun. Buckles, trophies and ribbons are enough of a dividing line between the fast and the not-so-fast. And sometimes, perception is everything. I bet that the opportunity to win a few dollars will not pull in new competitors, but it might keep a few home.

 

I can't exactly put my finger on it, but it seems that cash, even a little bit, steps us over the line from those of us who compete purely for the love of the sport to sharing it with those that might be more interested in the reward. Endure one more stupid analogy, please. A story that is often mis-attributed to Winston Churchill and usually conveniently paraphrased, goes like this:

 

Sir Winston Churchill is engaged in conversation with a beautiful lady at at dinner party. He asks, "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?" She smiles and replies that she just might. He then asks, "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?" The lady is most offended and curtly replies, "Heavens no - what kind of woman do you take me for?" Churchill replies, "We have already established that. Now we are just haggling over the price."

 

A slippery slope indeed.

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I don't know how you came up with that alias but I think Czexican is probably the most novel I've heard of in a long time. P.S. Likely only Texicans know the meaning! :)

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I don't know how you came up with that alias but I think Czexican is probably the most novel I've heard of in a long time. P.S. Likely only Texicans know the meaning! :)

 

I was hoping someone would ask. It means fifth generation Texan of Czech heritage, with a preference for Mexican food. Two cervezas and one pivo and it makes perfect sense.

 

Czexican

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I was hoping someone would ask. It means fifth generation Texan of Czech heritage, with a preference for Mexican food. Two cervezas and one pivo and it makes perfect sense.

 

Czexican

 

Yep, I hit it on the head! We were neighbors to such people named Kristnek, Dukatnik, Ansinic, and others I can't remember out west of Lubbock.

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I was hoping someone would ask. It means fifth generation Texan of Czech heritage, with a preference for Mexican food. Two cervezas and one pivo and it makes perfect sense.

 

Czexican

 

 

Cool!

 

I just thought you shot a CZ shotgun!! :lol:

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Actually, this idea could put a significant amount of money in my pocket. Yes I am a marginal/mediocre shooter at best. Well who am I kidding, I'm a lousy shooter, but this idea will make me money!

 

The way I see it, I have several thousand dollars invested in guns, leather, hats, etc., that all would be sold and I would have $$$$ in my pocket! I then would move on to my next HOBBY that I participate in for FUN only!

 

Hmmmm......what to try next... :rolleyes:

 

 

EC

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The way I see it, I have several thousand dollars invested in guns, leather, hats, etc., that all would be sold and I would have $$$$ in my pocket! I then would move on to my next HOBBY that I participate in for FUN only!

 

 

 

 

EC

Ditto. Once money becomes a prize, it will become to serious, the camaraderie will be no more, and only the few will be competing. MT

I can see video and sound recordings, instant replays, at slow motion. Professional spotters (referees), and TOs. Protests, and arguments on calls. Pro shirts, and uniforms, and hats,(available from your local vendor endorsed by the winners).

Yup, sounds like the beginning of the end as we know it.

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Purely from the tax perspective, I'm pretty sure that all who can already do write off expenses, and bringing in cash prizes would not make a lick of difference.

 

I also do take issue with you on your other statement. WE MISS JOE DARTER IN CALIFORNIA!

But maybe I'll get to see you and him at CAC...

 

That would be great!

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Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195

I have NEVER seen a shooting game/contest/sport of any description, and it isn't only in the shooting sports, where money was involved, that didn't become wrought with cheating and doing anything to win, legal or illegal.

 

Putting money in the game will kill the uniqueness and love of the game we all enjoy now. Add money and I'm gone.

 

RBK

+1

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How about we let those who want to win money contribute and those that don't care (ME!) don't have to. I promise that if I win I won't take a cent, not even a paper certificate, and won't let my name or score be posted.

 

That way folks who feel the same way I do can still shoot and to hell with categories, times, etc. and you that want to be superstars are welcome to finance your fun out of your own pocket and we can all shoot together and still have fun.

 

Just leave me the hell out of your game and I'll stay out of yours. All we'll share is a range, targets, stages, and other general stuff. I won't even waste time and battery power for timers and spotters BECAUSE I JUST DON'T CARE!!!

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and I'll promise to stop double tapping my posts.

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How about we let those who want to win money contribute and those that don't care (ME!) don't have to. I promise that if I win I won't take a cent, not even a paper certificate, and won't let my name or score be posted.

 

That way folks who feel the same way I do can still shoot and to hell with categories, times, etc. and you that want to be superstars are welcome to finance your fun out of your own pocket and we can all shoot together and still have fun.

 

Just leave me the hell out of your game and I'll stay out of yours. All we'll share is a range, targets, stages, and other general stuff. I won't even waste time and battery power for timers and spotters BECAUSE I JUST DON'T CARE!!!

 

 

so have a Pro/Am match. :ph34r:

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Guest Texas Jack Black

With all this stupid talk, they should start passing out common sense awards. ;)

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When I lived in New York City I used to go deep sea fishing. The boat captain ran a boat pool. Those who wanted to would put in a couple of $ and at the end of the day whoever caught the biggst fish would ge the money in the pool. Strictly optional, but on a good day (a large boat at capacity) the pool would have a couple of hunderd dollars in it.

 

Something like that might work for SASS. Anyone that wanted to, could put a small aomunt (??) in a prize pool, with the winner getting the pool as a prize.

 

Participation would be strictly voluntary, and funded solely by the participants.

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Hi Folks,

 

I don't know if it has been mentioned...Some annual matches have pot shoots associated with their side matches. For example, you would have a regular speed event. The first run was for an award. If you wanted, you could pay to shoot additional times. The shooter with the best time, who entered the "pot shoot" part of the event, would win part of the pot. The club would keep a percentage to defray costs or to donate to a charitable cause.

 

I don't know if this is still done.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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When I lived in New York City I used to go deep sea fishing. The boat captain ran a boat pool. Those who wanted to would put in a couple of $ and at the end of the day whoever caught the biggst fish would ge the money in the pool. Strictly optional, but on a good day (a large boat at capacity) the pool would have a couple of hunderd dollars in it.

 

Something like that might work for SASS. Anyone that wanted to, could put a small aomunt (??) in a prize pool, with the winner getting the pool as a prize.

 

Participation would be strictly voluntary, and funded solely by the participants.

 

 

The difference with fishing and SASS is that there is a certain amount of luck associated with fishing. Granted there is some skill involved in fishing, but which fish bites which line is the random element.

 

In SASS matches, the winner is almost always one the few shooters who have attained the very highest of skill level, usually through a combination of natural talent and lots and lots of practice. The number of shooters that have any chance of winning is maybe 5% of the total based on my experiences over the last 11 years. When our club hosted its 100th match, the Match Director and I combined the match statistics from all 100 matches into a "Super Match" and it was always the same guys at the top. Sure, the top shooters changed over the years, but 95% of the shooters weren't even close. And they don't care! They keep coming back, not because they think they might win, but because they love the game and the people in it.

 

Make this sport about money, and it will die. Sure the 5% will keep playing but they will be playing with fewer folks and the pots will shrink accordingly.

 

I suggest that those who want to play for money, do it amongst themselves and don't involve the rest of us or SASS. I would bet that they won't be doing it for long.

 

Dogmeat Dad

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When I lived in New York City I used to go deep sea fishing. The boat captain ran a boat pool. Those who wanted to would put in a couple of $ and at the end of the day whoever caught the biggst fish would ge the money in the pool. Strictly optional, but on a good day (a large boat at capacity) the pool would have a couple of hunderd dollars in it.

 

Something like that might work for SASS. Anyone that wanted to, could put a small aomunt (??) in a prize pool, with the winner getting the pool as a prize.

 

Participation would be strictly voluntary, and funded solely by the participants.

 

might be fun if the top 5-10 shooters put that money in because it would be based on skill. Not sure if the middle of the pack or the bottom of the barrel shooters would want to give thier money to the top shooters...but it might make the top 5 shooters a bit more competitive with each other. The boat pool would be more fun for everybody because fishing is more luck than anything..

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"The rule of thumb is that all expenses are deductible right up until the IRS notifies you that your return has been selected for further examination"......That right there is hilarious, i dont care who you are....and probably true in most cases....Czexican Dave...you da man!!

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Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195

Hi Folks,

 

I don't know if it has been mentioned...Some annual matches have pot shoots associated with their side matches. For example, you would have a regular speed event. The first run was for an award. If you wanted, you could pay to shoot additional times. The shooter with the best time, who entered the "pot shoot" part of the event, would win part of the pot. The club would keep a percentage to defray costs or to donate to a charitable cause.

 

I don't know if this is still done.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Yep, right here at the Chorro Valley Shoot Out. Your first pass through the side match speed rifle/pistol/shotgun is included in your entry fee, then if you feel fast and lucky you can ante up and shoot again for the pot.

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"The rule of thumb is that all expenses are deductible right up until the IRS notifies you that your return has been selected for further examination"......That right there is hilarious, i dont care who you are....and probably true in most cases....Czexican Dave...you da man!!

 

 

Yep you are correct fer sure. Must be why I have been able to own airplanes since 1967 and now own 5 :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yea the Tax Man Cometh :):)

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Wynadot Jim,

 

I have an idea, sell one of those airplanes, use the money to start a pot shoot somewhere. You are happy and I'm happy that SASS is still the same "no money" game. Sounds like a win win to me.

 

Do you really feel it is necessary to brag or I guess, you're just stating facts.

 

Blue(who doesn't have any airplanes)Wolf

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Wynadot Jim,

 

I have an idea, sell one of those airplanes, use the money to start a pot shoot somewhere. You are happy and I'm happy that SASS is still the same "no money" game. Sounds like a win win to me.

 

Do you really feel it is necessary to brag or I guess, you're just stating facts.

 

Blue(who doesn't have any airplanes)Wolf

 

Blue Wolf,

No not trying to brag don't need to. But it is something I'm damn proud of after spending my whole adult life to get there.

Was just trying to come up with something that might benefit others.

Since I'm retired and and on fixed income not in to high of a tax bracket. :) Probably wouldn't shoot for money if I could. Don't like losing. At one time our club had pot shoots and they were fun.

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You could come up with a handicap system where you would take the average time over, say, the last 10 matches for a shooter. Then figure out what the middle shooter's time was and then add or subtract the handicap times. It would basically bring all shooters to the same overall match time. That would give even the worse shooter chance at winning if he had a decent day. Of course, you would need a pretty good computer person to figure all these previous match times out during the match and then apply the formula after the current match scores are totaled.

 

Ok, probably just best to leave the prize money out of it. :blush:

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After careful considerations, I'm not interested.

When I get to the point that I just can't afford to participate in this game, then I'll hang up the spurs.

I'm not sure what cash prizes to the winners would do to benefit the sport.

Just my 2c. Others may disagree.

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After careful considerations, I'm not interested.

When I get to the point that I just can't afford to participate in this game, then I'll hang up the spurs.

I'm not sure what cash prizes to the winners would do to benefit the sport.

Just my 2c. Others may disagree.

 

Could not have said it better. When I was racing motorcycles as an amateur, I'd see a rider stop to help a crashed friend. As a pro - well ... what do you think?

 

Not interested.

 

CR

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