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Wyandot Jim

Why Don't We Compete for Money In CAS

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Hey Pards,

 

In previous post by Brother King he was sort of comparing CAS to other sports. I do believe all the ones he mentioned compete for money. So why don't we in SASS.

 

Let me explain a weeeeee bit of my thinking :rolleyes: . In the 70s I was involved in an Aerobatic Flying Club. We put on about 4 contest with 4 categories a year. Each of us would put in $5.00 in the pot and who ever won his category got the money from the contestants in that category. So 3 in category ya just won $15.00. Pretty simple.

 

So we could have $1.00 of each shooters match fee go in the category he/she shoots in.

 

It isn't about how much you win but how much of the expenses you can write off your taxes IF YOU CHOSE to.

 

Seems to me that we in CAS could do the same to help cover expenses if desired.

 

I'm not a tax accountant for sure. The way I understand is if you compete for money and win it would be income and ya pay taxes on it. Ya lose ya write off the expenses. I see that some on the wire state it cost them $2000-3000 for them to go to EOT and WR WOW

 

I would think that the Wild Bunch, Vendors and a few others get to write off their expenses and match fees.

 

I just shot a 4 day cheap shoot. With sharing a $35 room on the range and transportation still cost $330.00. That comes out to $1.31 a shot or $60.00 a minute. At least I won a $2.00 badge :):)

 

Yea the $130.00 match fee for this shoot was tax deductible. Will I put it on my taxes probably not.

 

I wouldn't think that shooters would get all bent out of shape because they didn't win any money. Ya don't when others win a $10.00 buckle or a piece of wood. or even a $500.00 gun. Well at least I don't

 

Anyway always wondered about this.

 

Wyandot

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So do you also want a "Professional" category?

 

That would be an easy way to flush this entertainment/sport down the tubes. :angry:

 

Don't forget to collect sales tax if ya sell it. :wacko:

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I am not a tax accountant either but any "losses" would not likely be allowable as they would be classified as hobby losses.

 

Photo Shooter

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So do you also want a "Professional" category?

 

That would be an easy way to flush this entertainment/sport down the tubes. :angry:

 

Don't forget to collect sales tax if ya sell it. :wacko:

 

Hacker,

Don't think that was in my post. Like I said and you know there are ones in this game that write off a lot.

It worked with us in Flying Akro.

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I am not a tax accountant either but any "losses" would not likely be allowable as they would be classified as hobby losses.

 

Photo Shooter

 

Well Ya got 5 years to sort that out. :rolleyes: You are compeating for money just not good at it. Ya ever wonder about the Vendor that doesn't sell much but gets to write off a shoot :)

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It depends on how you look at this activity. Is it "sport" or is it a "game?" If sport, then prizes make sense. If a game, then they don't.

 

I believe the WB sees it as a game. I believe that the majority of members do as well. I also believe that the majority of the shooting community do too.

 

Informal competition with wagers is certainly something you can do. Or look at another one called Western 3 Gun. They have an annual match with cash and prizes.

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Monetary prizes are a great way to have less skilled subsidise those at the top.

The fact SASS does not use monetary awards is a big reason why I am in the game

 

OH REALLY How about the Guns and stuff given away at shoots.

Ya think maybe some of that stuff gets sold by the winner to help pay for the shoot. I know I have.

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Monetary prizes are a great way to have less skilled subsidise those at the top.

The fact SASS does not use monetary awards is a big reason why I am in the game

 

 

Glad I read this first. It is almost word for word what I would have posted.

 

Love the highly competitive shooters, but do not want to pay for the privelege of getting humiliated by them. :lol:

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It depends on how you look at this activity. Is it "sport" or is it a "game?" If sport, then prizes make sense. If a game, then they don't.

 

I believe the WB sees it as a game. I believe that the majority of members do as well. I also believe that the majority of the shooting community do too.

 

Informal competition with wagers is certainly something you can do. Or look at another one called Western 3 Gun. They have an annual match with cash and prizes.

 

Thanks Doc makes sense. Do you think when a WB member travels acroos the country to shoot he writes it off :) Not a game to him.

 

Like I said it isn't about the money you may win.

Thanks again,

Wyandot

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Monetary prizes are a great way to have less skilled subsidise those at the top.

The fact SASS does not use monetary awards is a big reason why I am in the game

Sounds like my golf game! Hell, they wouldn't let me play if I didn't bring the payoff to the parking lot. :lol:

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My brother Cactus and me, plus some other cowboys ( and gals ), like to shoot skins, ( just like in golf ), buck a miss - 2 bucks for P's - plus ya gotta shoot under 30 seconds. Roll your little dollar bill's up and show'm off in your hatband as you collect ( Hopefully ).

Lotta fun - I love this " GAME " !!

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I have NEVER seen a shooting game/contest/sport of any description, and it isn't only in the shooting sports, where money was involved, that didn't become wrought with cheating and doing anything to win, legal or illegal.

 

Putting money in the game will kill the uniqueness and love of the game we all enjoy now. Add money and I'm gone.

 

RBK

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Thanks Doc makes sense. Do you think when a WB member travels acroos the country to shoot he writes it off :) Not a game to him.

 

Like I said it isn't about the money you may win.

Thanks again,

Wyandot

 

The WB owns SASS, SASS is a business, when they travel to a match it's a business expense. Deductible don’t you know :)

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I think it would be a bad idea to pay cash prizes. It is a slippery slope from there to individual sponsors, very pricey tricked out guns (I know we already trick them out) and "touring" pro shooters coming to all the best paying matches.

I think the intent is to keep a friendly sport and as much as possible, keep costs down for us all. If I can't afford to attend a match, I just don't go...just MHO...

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I have NEVER seen a shooting game/contest/sport of any description, and it isn't only in the shooting sports, where money was involved, that didn't become wrought with cheating and doing anything to win, legal or illegal.

 

Putting money in the game will kill the uniqueness and love of the game we all enjoy now. Add money and I'm gone.

 

RBK

 

+1

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I have NEVER seen a shooting game/contest/sport of any description, and it isn't only in the shooting sports, where money was involved, that didn't become wrought with cheating and doing anything to win, legal or illegal.

 

Putting money in the game will kill the uniqueness and love of the game we all enjoy now. Add money and I'm gone.

 

RBK

Then I think you over estimate your "LOVE" for the game.. my opinion. But, let me ask please- what if you had a choice? Golf is certainly a 'choice'. THere are friendly games and money games. Hasn't exactly killed golf.

 

Just askin'

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The thing about introducing money isn't that it will turn otherwise friendly folks into jerks. It's that it attracts the jerks that otherwise wouldn't participate.

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Adding money will kill it.

 

Been in lots of things where you played for money.

There was a reason I don't do them anymore. Sucked the fun right out of it.

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I may be missing WJ's point, or perhaps others are, but it seems to me he is suggesting adding a nominal prize amount, NOT to change the flavor of the game or to encourage shooters to compete for money BUT to give ALL shooters the ability to write off the cost of shooting on their taxes.

 

For example, at the recent Alabama match there were quite a few Wranglers, so many in fact that if 1 dollar of each one's entrance fee had gone into the hat for the the winning Wrangler he would have walked away with the handsome sum of about $10. Surely such a princely sum will not entice pro shooters into the game? I don't know whether it would allow me to write off expenses on my taxes, but if it did the savings would be a lot more significant than the prize money. From that perspective ALL participants would benefit almost equally.

 

To me it seems like a very clever idea.

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I may be missing WJ's point, or perhaps others are, but it seems to me he is suggesting adding a nominal prize amount, NOT to change the flavor of the game or to encourage shooters to compete for money BUT to give ALL shooters the ability to write off the cost of shooting on their taxes.

 

For example, at the recent Alabama match there were quite a few Wranglers, so many in fact that if 1 dollar of each one's entrance fee had gone into the hat for the the winning Wrangler he would have walked away with the handsome sum of about $10. Surely such a princely sum will not entice pro shooters into the game? I don't know whether it would allow me to write off expenses on my taxes, but if it did the savings would be a lot more significant than the prize money. From that perspective ALL participants would benefit almost equally.

 

To me it seems like a very clever idea.

 

 

YA. Try that with horses and see just how fast they slap the hobby label on it.

Lots of folks have tryed it.

Only to lose in tax court.

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You guys are missing the point. Keep everything the way it is.

Except have everybody put in a dollar or two. Kind of like buying a miss at our monthly. Then how ever many ya have in a category #1 wins the money.

Lets see now I shoot Frontiersman. So at a CaC there were 400+ shooters. 14 or so in my category so winner would get $14-30 WOW.

The biggest category might get $50 WOW.

So what you guys are saying is that all the Pards that live the Cowboy way would lie and cheat for $15-50. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Well all I can say is it worked with us Pilots so maybe our standard is a little higher. Oh yea we still had a blast with life long friends. The club was "The Tiger Club" run by Papa Tiger Frank Price RIP #1 Tiger.

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There is not one thing that is keeping you from doing a side bet.

Or a jackpot on the side now is there?

Then those that want to can. Those that don't won't.

 

I have made side bets with my friends at matches before.

 

But throwing in that tax thing won't work.

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Winning in the way of receiving and giving cash prizes would turn a fun game into a serious sport, of which I would part ways. MT

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I am not a tax accountant either but any "losses" would not likely be allowable as they would be classified as hobby losses.

 

Photo Shooter

True, look here.

 

Jim,

Keeping the money out keeps this a friendly game. Folks get much more serious when money is involved. Even when it's very small amounts of money.

 

I have NEVER seen a shooting game/contest/sport of any description, and it isn't only in the shooting sports, where money was involved, that didn't become wrought with cheating and doing anything to win, legal or illegal.

 

Putting money in the game will kill the uniqueness and love of the game we all enjoy now. Add money and I'm gone.

 

RBK

Possum and RB Kid,

 

We already have cheaters. So, I agree that adding $ to the prestige of winning those folks need would be detrimental to SASS.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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YA. Try that with horses and see just how fast they slap the hobby label on it.

Lots of folks have tryed it.

Only to lose in tax court.

 

 

Al,

I have done it with airplanes. Ya have 5 years to make a profit. How about the NASCAR Team that never wins. Is it a hobby sure is. :)

Profit can be $1.00

Did you write off the Defend Old Ft Parker Shoot? Yea I know you sell bullets, but you are supposed to seperate the hobby form the business.

 

Ali Mo

Been there done that.

Doesn't say how much of a profit :)

 

The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year — at least two of the last seven years for activities that consist primarily of breeding, showing, training or racing horses.

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True, look here.

 

 

 

 

Possum and RB Kid,

 

We already have cheaters.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

OH! My! MT

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I think it's a slippery slope that we don't want to even get started. $10 for monthly match, $100 for State matches and pretty soon you have $10,000 grand prize for EOT. Next thing you know,Team Ruger and Team Uberti are showing up with the T.V. cameras and RV buses. Keep the prize money out of it and emphasize the family fun.

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Al,

I have done it with airplanes. Ya have 5 years to make a profit. How about the NASCAR Team that never wins. Is it a hobby sure is. :)

Profit can be $1.00

Did you write off the Defend Old Ft Parker Shoot? Yea I know you sell bullets, but you are supposed to seperate the hobby form the business.

 

 

That kind of thinking has put a lot of folks in trouble with the tax office.

 

you are not talking about spending hundreds to win one dollar.

If all the duelist would have put in one dollar I would have only won $2 bucks and one dollar would

have been mine to stat with.

So after spending a few hundred to go tot he shoot. How are you going to explan that to the IRS.

 

Yes I wrote off DOFP. As bullets IS NOT a hobby. Spent X to go. Made XX.

Please dont' insult me by compareing a bullet company that has spent $45 grand to make and sell bullets.

To someone that is spending hundreds to go win one.

If you think the tax office is that stupid. Go for it.

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You all crack me up... surely you pay your state sales taxes on every online purchase that's shipped to you. :rolleyes: You also declare the retail value of every gun or prize you win at every shoot you've attended. :rolleyes: You also declare every side bet on every pro sporting event. :rolleyes:

 

If AA is in the bidness of bullets he gets ordinary and necessary bidness expenses. That includes the costs to promote his bullet bidness. Shooting bullets to promote his bullet bidness is good ordinary and necessary bidness if you're in the bullet bidness. :FlagAm:

 

Tell me when/ where the cameras and buses are due to arrive.

 

WJ, I got $1 per miss and $2 per "P" with you on CAC all stages under $30 or it's another $1. Can anyone here spell "Calcutta"? 1/2 split to the winner/shooter and 1/2 to the SASS scholarship fund?

 

Crank up the music, Nuttin'! Get Tbone and Ringo microphones! YEEEEEE HAAAAAAW

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That kind of thinking has put a lot of folks in trouble with the tax office.

 

you are not talking about spending hundreds to win one dollar.

If all the duelist would have put in one dollar I would have only won $2 bucks and one dollar would

have been mine to stat with.

So after spending a few hundred to go tot he shoot. How are you going to explan that to the IRS.

 

Yes I wrote off DOFP. As bullets IS NOT a hobby. Spent X to go. Made XX.

Please dont' insult me by compareing a bullet company that has spent $45 grand to make and sell bullets.

To someone that is spending hundreds to go win one.

If you think the tax office is that stupid. Go for it.

 

Al,

You and I spoke at DOFP and you kind of know me, so don't get your panties in a wad.

Just for the record. I have been involved in Aircraft since 1967.

I have bought and sold, have had them on lease back and repaired them for $$$$ along with competition Akro. Have invested a few $100,000 in them so I'm aware what you can and can't do for taxes. Just didn't want to bring that up. Was also self employed.

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You all crack me up... surely you pay your state sales taxes on every online purchase that's shipped to you. :rolleyes: You also declare the retail value of every gun or prize you win at every shoot you've attended. :rolleyes: You also declare every side bet on every pro sporting event. :rolleyes:

 

If AA is in the bidness of bullets he gets ordinary and necessary bidness expenses. That includes the costs to promote his bullet bidness. Shooting bullets to promote his bullet bidness is good ordinary and necessary bidness if you're in the bullet bidness. :FlagAm:

 

Tell me when/ where the cameras and buses are due to arrive.

 

WJ, I got $1 per miss and $2 per "P" with you on CAC all stages under $30 or it's another $1. Can anyone here spell "Calcutta"? 1/2 split to the winner/shooter and 1/2 to the SASS scholarship fund?

 

Crank up the music, Nuttin'! Get Tbone and Ringo microphones! YEEEEEE HAAAAAAW

 

 

BK,YOU be the man :):) Still not going to buy a wool vest when it is 95F. Well maybe I could be a distributor for ya. Duuu write off in the making. OK How bout the WJ magic bullet "Never hit a damn thing"

Miss seeing and shooting with ya Pard. Always fun when you are around.

WJ

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factors:

Does the time and effort put into the activity indicate an intention to make a profit?

 

Does the taxpayer depend on income from the activity?

 

If there are losses, are they due to circumstances beyond the taxpayer’s control or did they occur in the start-up phase of the business?

 

Has the taxpayer changed methods of operation to improve profitability?

 

Does the taxpayer or his/her advisors have the knowledge needed to carry on the activity as a successful business?

 

Has the taxpayer made a profit in similar activities in the past?

 

Does the activity make a profit in some years?

 

Can the taxpayer expect to make a profit in the future from the appreciation of assets used in the activity?

 

 

If you can tell me how a normal shooter as a SASS match. Even winning $10 bucks after spending hundreds.

Can fit into that to you can take it off your taxes.

PLEASE let me know.

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WJ, I got $1 per miss and $2 per "P" with you on CAC all stages under $30 or it's another $1. Can anyone here spell "Calcutta"? 1/2 split to the winner/shooter and 1/2 to the SASS scholarship fund?

 

Crank up the music, Nuttin'! Get Tbone and Ringo microphones! YEEEEEE HAAAAAAW

 

 

BK. I think a Calcutta at Comin At'Cha would be FUN.

 

I think Nuttin and Bone have talked about it before.

 

Lets hit them up and see if it can happen.

 

OR. YOU could be in charge of it?

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