Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Wyandot Jim

Why Don't We Compete for Money In CAS

Recommended Posts

If any sizeable amount of money started being awarded, I guarantee you the sharks would start coming around. I used to shoot pool a lot and was a pretty good bowler. If there was money to be made, especially at shooting pool, I heard and was there. And of course I wasn't the only one. There are people in this game that would go around and clean everybody's clock. Don't blame them, if I was good enough at it and the money was right, I might, too.

I had a re-blueing shop for a few years, too. I tried to make money, did basic repairs, reblueing and selling guns and after 5 years the IRS said it was a hobby and I could do it all I wanted but couldn't claim anything as a business expense. Now I'm not talking a $100,000 dollar operation, but the IRS doesn't care. I'm glad it is exactly the way it is....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forget about taxes for a moment.

 

Introducing monetary awards would be a death sentence upon the sport/game we all enjoy. When money is added into any equasion, integrity (for some) takes a back seat. Have you ever played a (supposedly) friendly game of poker for cash? Sure, most games go the way of casual bantering....but there's always that one out of ten that don't end up that way. It's the same for any game/sport that pays cash.

 

When monetary prizes begin to happen, I'm outta here early.....that'll be when the selling of CAS guns will be at it's zenith. <_<

 

CS

 

BTW, Is there something going on with the water in Texas? :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK You guys are correct. NOBODY in our GAME shoots for money.

 

Well let me name a few that do.

 

Top shooters have been on TV Cowboys like Tequila and Tupilo Flash.

 

Tequila and I have drank a beer or two together and he deserves everything he has gotten from the NO MONEY GAME..

 

How about the ones on Top Shot.

 

Free entry to the US Open for State and above category.

 

Don't know about EOT. or WR never been there. Are there free entrees there?

 

How about the money made from the shooting schools and tricked out guns sold because you are famous.

 

Not a thing wrong with the above and good for them. Just don't tell me No Prize Money involved in our game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Pards,

 

In previous post by Brother King he was sort of comparing CAS to other sports. I do believe all the ones he mentioned compete for money. So why don't we in SASS.

 

Let me explain a weeeeee bit of my thinking :rolleyes: . In the 70s I was involved in an Aerobatic Flying Club. We put on about 4 contest with 4 categories a year. Each of us would put in $5.00 in the pot and who ever won his category got the money from the contestants in that category. So 3 in category ya just won $15.00. Pretty simple.

 

So we could have $1.00 of each shooters match fee go in the category he/she shoots in.

 

It isn't about how much you win but how much of the expenses you can write off your taxes IF YOU CHOSE to.

 

Seems to me that we in CAS could do the same to help cover expenses if desired.

 

I'm not a tax accountant for sure. The way I understand is if you compete for money and win it would be income and ya pay taxes on it. Ya lose ya write off the expenses. I see that some on the wire state it cost them $2000-3000 for them to go to EOT and WR WOW

 

I would think that the Wild Bunch, Vendors and a few others get to write off their expenses and match fees.

 

I just shot a 4 day cheap shoot. With sharing a $35 room on the range and transportation still cost $330.00. That comes out to $1.31 a shot or $60.00 a minute. At least I won a $2.00 badge :):)

 

Yea the $130.00 match fee for this shoot was tax deductible. Will I put it on my taxes probably not.

 

I wouldn't think that shooters would get all bent out of shape because they didn't win any money. Ya don't when others win a $10.00 buckle or a piece of wood. or even a $500.00 gun. Well at least I don't

 

Anyway always wondered about this.

 

Wyandot

We would take your inquiry a lot more seriously if you hadn't just joined the Wire two days ago. You provide zero information about yourself, whether you are a SASS member or not, etc. When you have been around a bit, come back and try to change our sport after you have tried it like it is for a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK You guys are correct. NOBODY in our GAME shoots for money.

 

Well let me name a few that do.

 

Top shooters have been on TV Cowboys like Tequila and Tupilo Flash.

 

Tequila and I have drank a beer or two together and he deserves everything he has gotten from the NO MONEY GAME..

 

How about the ones on Top Shot.

 

Free entry to the US Open for State and above category.

 

Don't know about EOT. or WR never been there. Are there free entrees there?

 

How about the money made from the shooting schools and tricked out guns sold because you are famous.

 

Not a thing wrong with the above and good for them. Just don't tell me No Prize Money involved in our game

 

Right on WJ.Money will not kill the game. People that think so have their head in the sand and are afraid to compete.

 

Shooting FOR something makes a better shooter out of a person, instead of just standing there and popping caps...For those that think adding money will attract cheaters, just how are they gonna cheat, without the help of the TO and the spotters? Think about it. They can not cheat unless YOU let em. Period.

 

Someone mentioned other shooting sports that have cheaters so they can win money. Name one if ya will. I have been around skeet and trap shooting since 1970 and haven't learned how to cheat yet. If it is so easy to cheat, I and others cannot figger it out. When it is just the target and the shooter, ya either break it or not. As a matter of fact, the LACK of money is hurting the clay targer aports, they aren't like they used to be.

 

A calcutta would be a good thing to have at any annual shoot, would keep the shooters on their toes for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We would take your inquiry a lot more seriously if you hadn't just joined the Wire two days ago. You provide zero information about yourself, whether you are a SASS member or not, etc. When you have been around a bit, come back and try to change our sport after you have tried it like it is for a while.

 

 

GCK, Jim has over 400 posts on this forum, lists his SASS number and his club affilition, his city of residence and his other interests. Exactly what additional information would you require to take him serious????

 

I don't have a dog in this fight. But having known Jim personally for several years I think he's just trying to get folks thinking about some things.

 

Bear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We would take your inquiry a lot more seriously if you hadn't just joined the Wire two days ago. You provide zero information about yourself, whether you are a SASS member or not, etc. When you have been around a bit, come back and try to change our sport after you have tried it like it is for a while.

 

Where are you getting this info from? Inquiring minds wanna know.

 

Even if a person was new to the sport, their opinion doesn't count? As in, "my SASSnumber is lower than yours, so my opinion is worth more?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GCK, Jim has over 400 posts on this forum, lists his SASS number and his club affilition, his city of residence and his other interests. Exactly what additional information would you require to take him serious????

 

I don't have a dog in this fight. But having known Jim personally for several years I think he's just trying to get folks thinking about some things.

 

Bear

GCK must be smokin the good stuff lately. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WJ

 

You are quite correct, there are a few fortunate folks who have prospered from being associated with CAS and SASS. I'm glad that they were able to attain the "fame and fortune" that they've earned.......however, that's not prize money. Everyone should commend the Evil Roy's, the Tequila's, the Bounty Hunter's and many others, for turning a game into a money making venture. The folks who are able to do this are abmirable but they are only 1% (at best) of the shooters that make up SASS.

 

The best way to kill any game is to introduce $$$$$ into the game. For that reason, no cash in SASS.

 

CS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WJ

 

The best way to kill any game is to introduce $$$$$ into the game. For that reason, no cash in SASS.

 

CS

 

Oh really? So ya have never heard of trap shooting? As I mentioned above, the LACK of money as it used to be, is hurting that game. Some people are just SCARED to try anything new.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GCK, Jim has over 400 posts on this forum, lists his SASS number and his club affilition, his city of residence and his other interests. Exactly what additional information would you require to take him serious????

 

I don't have a dog in this fight. But having known Jim personally for several years I think he's just trying to get folks thinking about some things.

 

Bear

You are correct, I was wrong. I clicked on his name and somehow pulled up the wrong cowboy. I appologize.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK You guys are correct. NOBODY in our GAME shoots for money.

 

Well let me name a few that do.

 

Top shooters have been on TV Cowboys like Tequila and Tupilo Flash.

 

Tequila and I have drank a beer or two together and he deserves everything he has gotten from the NO MONEY GAME..

 

How about the ones on Top Shot.

 

Free entry to the US Open for State and above category.

 

Don't know about EOT. or WR never been there. Are there free entrees there?

 

How about the money made from the shooting schools and tricked out guns sold because you are famous.

 

Not a thing wrong with the above and good for them. Just don't tell me No Prize Money involved in our game

 

:blink::wacko:

If you really can not see the difference. You have a problem that can not be helped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh really? So ya have never heard of trap shooting? As I mentioned above, the LACK of money as it used to be, is hurting that game. Some people are just SCARED to try anything new.

 

 

This is NOT trap.

 

And. it is notthing new at all. Most of us have played other things for money.

I have done all kinds of thing for money. MANY different horse events. Shot trap. You name it.

 

Got tired of all that. It is one of the things I like about SASS. Takes all that out of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh really? So ya have never heard of trap shooting? As I mentioned above, the LACK of money as it used to be, is hurting that game. Some people are just SCARED to try anything new.

 

 

Tell ya what Jacknife, I'll play most anything for money.....just not CAS.

 

Name the game.

 

Also, if you're going by SASS numbers....I don't believe that BR 549 is a viable number.

 

CS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GCK, Jim has over 400 posts on this forum, lists his SASS number and his club affilition, his city of residence and his other interests. Exactly what additional information would you require to take him serious????

 

I don't have a dog in this fight. But having known Jim personally for several years I think he's just trying to get folks thinking about some things.

 

Bear

 

Thanks Bear,

Yea all I was trying to do was get an answer from someone that might know. I love the game and just trying to improve it.

Same as Brother King. Think outside the box for a change.

Something needs to be done. After all a lot of my local clubs are loosing shooters. How do you fix that?? If you have an answer I sure would like to know what it is. No Monthlys no big match.

Instide of bitching try and come up with a solution. Would mine help? I don't have a clue. I guess not from what you are saying.

Gee if we shoot for $10 evrybody is going to cheat. Give me a break

WJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<snip>

Something needs to be done. After all a lot of my local clubs are loosing shooters. How do you fix that?? If you have an answer I sure would like to know what it is.<snip>

 

It occurs to me that maybe the thing to do is for the MD, or Club Pres to contact those folks that done come around any more and ask 'em why. That should provide a whole heap of interesting info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The thing about introducing money isn't that it will turn otherwise friendly folks into jerks. It's that it attracts the jerks that otherwise wouldn't participate.

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1

 

 

Yea I can see where $15-50 would attract all these JERKS TO PARTICIPATE. I guess they are just waiting in the wings to spend $1,500-2,000 so they can compete for $5.00-50.00 Think about it :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea I can see where $15-50 would attract all these JERKS TO PARTICIPATE. I guess they are just waiting in the wings to spend $1,500-2,000 so they can compete for $5.00-50.00 Think about it :rolleyes:

 

It may start there, but it won't end there. It's a slippery slope. Once it's been introduced, there will be calls for big matches with big money. Nature of the beast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone mentioned other shooting sports that have cheaters so they can win money. Name one if ya will. I have been around skeet and trap shooting since 1970 and haven't learned how to cheat yet. If it is so easy to cheat, I and others cannot figger it out. When it is just the target and the shooter, ya either break it or not. As a matter of fact, the LACK of money is hurting the clay targer aports, they aren't like they used

 

Yeah, IPSC/USPSA. I've never seen so many sandbaggers in my life. They shoot A-Class or better until their "Qualifer" stage and suddenly they turn into a C-Class shooter. The president of a local club came straight out and told me to back off my qualifier stage so I would be able to win more at the big matches. If that ain't cheating I don't know what is.

 

With that said I shoot cowboy because its fun and the people are great. I rarely shoot IPSC anymore and my wife hates it because of the B.S. and the A-holes that shoot it.

 

Keep SASS the way it is, you want to play for money go shoot IPSC

 

I also think that if you have made a business that is CAS related be it gunsmithing or training classes that is awesome great for you/them BUT that is NOT prize money! Prize money will ruin this game and like Cypress Sun said I will be outa here if they ever start doing it. I'd bet you'd feel the vacuum coming from all the others that feel the same.

 

JEL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It occurs to me that maybe the thing to do is for the MD, or Club Pres to contact those folks that done come around any more and ask 'em why. That should provide a whole heap of interesting info.

 

+1 Money ain't got nothing to do with declining attendance...'cepting some folks ain't got jobs and can't afford to shoot much..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may start there, but it won't end there. It's a slippery slope. Once it's been introduced, there will be calls for big matches with big money. Nature of the beast.

 

Doc,

Thank you so much for your GREAT input.

Both of us have been around this game for awhile. So both of us know something needs to be done for the next generation.

All I was trying to say is if a tax break works for some that might help all of us.

Sorry so many are close minded.

End of story

WJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Pards,

 

In previous post by Brother King he was sort of comparing CAS to other sports. I do believe all the ones he mentioned compete for money. So why don't we in SASS.

 

Let me explain a weeeeee bit of my thinking :rolleyes: . In the 70s I was involved in an Aerobatic Flying Club. We put on about 4 contest with 4 categories a year. Each of us would put in $5.00 in the pot and who ever won his category got the money from the contestants in that category. So 3 in category ya just won $15.00. Pretty simple.

 

So we could have $1.00 of each shooters match fee go in the category he/she shoots in.

 

It isn't about how much you win but how much of the expenses you can write off your taxes IF YOU CHOSE to.

 

Seems to me that we in CAS could do the same to help cover expenses if desired.

 

I'm not a tax accountant for sure. The way I understand is if you compete for money and win it would be income and ya pay taxes on it. Ya lose ya write off the expenses. I see that some on the wire state it cost them $2000-3000 for them to go to EOT and WR WOW

 

I would think that the Wild Bunch, Vendors and a few others get to write off their expenses and match fees.

 

I just shot a 4 day cheap shoot. With sharing a $35 room on the range and transportation still cost $330.00. That comes out to $1.31 a shot or $60.00 a minute. At least I won a $2.00 badge :):)

 

Yea the $130.00 match fee for this shoot was tax deductible. Will I put it on my taxes probably not.

 

I wouldn't think that shooters would get all bent out of shape because they didn't win any money. Ya don't when others win a $10.00 buckle or a piece of wood. or even a $500.00 gun. Well at least I don't

 

Anyway always wondered about this.

 

Wyandot

 

 

Me and a few of my pards used to "duel" for ice cream. Loser pays for everybody. That didn't last too long so I don't think "playing for moolah" is such a great idea. I think it would turn off a lot of people like ME!!!

 

Rye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may start there, but it won't end there. It's a slippery slope. Once it's been introduced, there will be calls for big matches with big money. Nature of the beast.

 

 

Yep. Starts as just a friendly 10 bucks. Then it's 20 bucks.

 

Clubs are hardly making it now. So that means entry fees go up.

 

So then those that do not have a chance to win. Start saying. Why am I going to giving my money away.

They stop going. Because it the same people winning it.

 

 

Have seen it happen at horse events more than once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I was trying to say is if a tax break works for some that might help all of us.

Sorry so many are close minded.

End of story

WJ

 

 

Not close minded.

 

Those that CAN take it off there taxes. Are. In order to payout enough money to make it work.

The price of entry fee's would take MOST out of the game.

 

Give us something that might work and I will be with ya.

 

But throw out the same old money stuff is old and tired.

And some of us have left other things becasue of it.

If I wanted to play for money. I would still be doing those things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In order to payout enough money to make it work.

The price of entry fee's would take MOST out of the game.

 

Give us something that might work and I will be with ya.

 

 

Ok, I'll throw this out for ya. How bout if ya did NOT have additional entry fees? Sound interesting now? Probably not to some, but lets look at it this way.

 

Shooters sign up for the shoot as usual, no additional money for the "pot" is included in the fee. At check in, a shooter has the "oppotrunity" to play the "options" if he desires to. The money gots into the "pot" to be split among the winners that were in the "pot". A shooter could have a good day and come in 15 overall and win the money if others above him did not play the options. Simple and no one is forced to play or to feel that his entry money is going toe "big boys" that win all the time.

 

Fastest time overall, -ten dollar entry

Fastest time on each stage, -five dollar entry each stage

Fastest stage time overall, -Five dollar entry

 

Pay 3 places, 50-30-20-, or however ya wanna split.

 

Now someone tell me and show good cause that this will KILL the sport. Of course we will never know. cause it will never be allowed in a SASS sanctioned event. And, calcuttas never happen in any other games either. :lol: :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I'll throw this out for ya. How bout if ya did NOT have additional entry fees? Sound interesting now? Probably not to some, but lets look at it this way.

 

Shooters sign up for the shoot as usual, no additional money for the "pot" is included in the fee. At check in, a shooter has the "oppotrunity" to play the "options" if he desires to. The money gots into the "pot" to be split among the winners that were in the "pot". A shooter could have a good day and come in 15 overall and win the money if others above him did not play the options. Simple and no one is forced to play or to feel that his entry money is going toe "big boys" that win all the time.

 

Fastest time overall, -ten dollar entry

Fastest time on each stage, -five dollar entry each stage

Fastest stage time overall, -Five dollar entry

 

Pay 3 places, 50-30-20-, or however ya wanna split.

 

Now someone tell me and show good cause that this will KILL the sport. Of course we will never know. cause it will never be allowed in a SASS sanctioned event. And, calcuttas never happen in any other games either. :lol: :lol:

 

 

You can do that amoung yourselves now.

And have done that with friends before.

No need for SASS itself to get involved. Or for the club to have to deal with it.

 

And having a calcutta is NOT the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can do that amoung yourselves now.

And have done that with friends before.

No need for SASS itself to get involved. Or for the club to have to deal with it.

 

And having a calcutta is NOT the same thing.

 

So, if ya have done this with "friends" before, how did it work out? No different with just friends and the entire shoot roster if they wanted to enter the options.

 

How would you collect the money without the club being involved? Talking about a 3-400 shooter affair. If ya are going to gamble among friends, as ya said ya have done, what is different here, just on a larger scale?

 

And you can rest assured that when the word got out that money is availabloe to "play" at a certain shoot, it will have an affect on the number of shooters in a positive way.

 

And, I am well aware of what a calcutta is, been there-done that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim,

When ol' Jacknife agrees with you, you know you're on the wrong side of an argument... :P

Ole Jim gotta have some support from somewhere. Thought I'd kinda stand behind him a bit. So far, I havent seen any solid info that what WJ is mentioning would be bad, just that "I don't like it and won't shoot there if they play for money."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may start there, but it won't end there. It's a slippery slope. Once it's been introduced, there will be calls for big matches with big money. Nature of the beast.

 

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim,

When ol' Jacknife agrees with you, you know you're on the wrong side of an argument... :P

 

 

Now That is funny and I don't care who ya are :):) Missed ya at DOFP

 

Jacknife, Thanks for watching my back. The words you speak have fire in them. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may start there, but it won't end there. It's a slippery slope. Once it's been introduced, there will be calls for big matches with big money. Nature of the beast.

 

So, tell me, what is wrong with "big matches for big money?" If ya don't wanna go, stay home. If the "big dogs" wanna play, how would that affect anyone that chose not to go? No different that the Grand American Trap Shoot that had $350,000 added money donated from just one couple. This didn't have any affect on the shooters that didn't want to play the money. In fact it drew MORE SHOOTERS.

 

Doc, do ya have any evidence supporting your belief? I have shown ya mine. Facts now, not just "I don't like the idea."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, tell me, what is wrong with "big matches for big money?" If ya don't wanna go, stay home. If the "big dogs" wanna play, how would that affect anyone that chose not to go? No different that the Grand American Trap Shoot that had $350,000 added money donated from just one couple. This didn't have any affect on the shooters that didn't want to play the money. In fact it drew MORE SHOOTERS.

 

Doc, do ya have any evidence supporting your belief? I have shown ya mine. Facts now, not just "I don't like the idea."

 

Advertise it as such and come up with your own rulebook. I don't think SASS would like it if you played that by their rules. Matter of fact, that's just how W3G got started. New game, cash and prizes at the big match. Got no problem with that.

 

But introducing this to a SASS match is just not a good idea. It's not what SASS matches are about. A money match is a different game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.