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Wyandot Jim

Why Don't We Compete for Money In CAS

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There are many of us who have played a game/sport for money. I have, and I can tell you that it DOES change the way you look at the event. Even if you don't participate in the "money" end of it. Putting money in our game is not the answer. For our game/sport to grow it will take everyone to do just one simple thing. Recruit one new shooter a year. Hows that for a solution?

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I am not sure why some prize money isn't given for winners. The fast draw sport has been giving away prize money since about 1955, and still does, and we don't have a problem with cheaters any more than CAS does. And yes I have seen cheating at SASS annual matches. Some blatant and some covert.

 

What makes CAS people think a little prize money is going to make people cheat? Isn't that what the officials at a contest are there for?

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I think anybody wanting to shoot for money should start an organization for that purpose and have at it. Don't come to an organization that is fine the way it is without money and try to change it. I have heard this thinking before and it seems to come up now and again. If enough of y'all want to shoot for money then get together and start another club and have at it. Seems enough of y'all have the capital to start it up.

 

Leave the prize money out of SASS, we have grown and prospered without prize money thus far. I think we will continue to do so without it.

 

Blue Wolf

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I am not sure why some prize money isn't given for winners.

 

It already is. Just that it is disguised as a free entry to the next shoot. No difference in giving a free shoot entry and same amount of money to the winner.

 

Anyone with a disagreeing opinion, please post the difference. Be interested in hearing your thoughts.

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It may surprise some long time SASS members but there is a history of prize money in cowboy action shooting. Before SASS was even formed, there was cowboy action shooting at Cowtown in Arizona. This club is near where Winter Range is held. There were several contests held there before SASS was even formed, I can give some details on that if anyone wants them. Anyway they gave a trophy to the fastest time on each of 8 stages and after expenses, the entry fees were paid out to the top shooters, my source thinks they paid down to 10th place. This means there was NO PROFIT for the host club. And there was no cheating!

 

Over the years, and after SASS was formed, the entry fees went to the host club, they paid for trophies but no cash. Then we get into the vendor fees. Now you can say giving away money at a CAS match is verbotten, but they clubs and SASS in particular charge vendors so much to set up that the number of vendors has dropped dramatically from what it was.

 

So much for not making money shooting CAS.

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"So much for not making money shooting CAS."

 

Oh, come on. How many years and total matches did they have with prize money awarded? How much did the top overall shooter make in his career from these cash prizes? How many come out ahead after figuring in their expenses to shoot the match? A handful of shooters doing this is a far cry from doing it at matches with hundreds of shooters paying their entry fees. If you are dependent on shooter entry fees to pay out substantial amounts of money to the top finishing shooters, it won't work. The matches I see that give out a lot in cash and prizes are able to do so because of corporate sponsorship. For example the ICORE IRC is heavily sponsored by Smith and Wesson and Hogue grips, among others. Smokin Gator

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"So much for not making money shooting CAS."

 

Oh, come on. How many years and total matches did they have with prize money awarded? How much did the top overall shooter make in his career from these cash prizes? A handful of shooters doing this is a far cry from doing it at matches with hundreds of shooters paying their entry fees. If you are dependent on shooter entry fees to pay out substantial amounts of money to the top finishing shooters, it won't work. The matches I see that give out a lot in cash and prizes are able to do so because of corporate sponsorship. For example the ICORE IRC is heavily sponsored by Smith and Wesson and Hogue grips, among others. Smokin Gator

 

As I said in the beginning fast draw has been giving away cash since 1955. What we have now is people shooting so much they get a bit faster, then they get endorsements and their picture in ads, or they start selling guns and lessons. Its a profession for them. Why do you put yourself as a second class shooter? Practice and win some money.

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Yep, Kid Shane. Shore 'nuff true. And it died out before SASS was born. The example it provided was priceless. And what is the participation in "Fast Draw" as compared to CAS? I don't see droves of cowboy shooters abandoning CAS to get the cash prizes in Fast Draw. Yep, those shooters with venues close to 'em likely do some dabblin' in one or the other, and a few that do both.

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To get to the top level of fast draw competition takes a lot of practice, many spend years to get to the top. There are not many people capable of competing against the best in fast draw. Even Evil Roy can't do it, his words not mine.

 

SASS is a purely amateur sport right? Some people make a lot of money shooting CAS but you and most others aren't in that group.

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"As I said in the beginning fast draw has been giving away cash since 1955. What we have now is people shooting so much they get a bit faster, then they get endorsements and their picture in ads, or they start selling guns and lessons. Its a profession for them. Why do you put yourself as a second class shooter? Practice and win some money."

 

You avoided my question about how many of those cash prize Cowtown matches were held and for how long? I certainly am not a Grandmaster USPSA shooter although I compete in USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, Western 3 Gun and SASS matches. How much has the 2006 World Champion Fast Draw (I can't remember what classification you are, however they rate fast draw shooters) brought in vs his expenses over the last 6 years? If memory serves you have shot SASS events before and can always go to one of the big matches and show everyone else how it is done. No one here is saying it's easy to rise to the top level of Fast draw. Yes, it's a completely different challenge firing one shot from one gun, very quickly vs transitioning between 3 different types of guns for 24 or so shots on a typical SASS stage. It's very difficult to be at the top of any of the shooting sports. So have you now risen to THE top gun in Fast draw since we last heard from you? There are USPSA and IDPA shooters who can say they are the Limited C class national champ or Production Sharpshooter World Champion, but they are not at the top level in their respective shooting sports. I do compete in events where cash and prizes are awarded. I haven't made it to the cash level yet, but have some nice prizes that I've picked up. I do spread myself kinda thin as far as enjoying quite a few differnt shooting sports. Might do a little better if I stuck to one. I like the variety. Smokin Gator

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I'm pretty sure that no one is making a living from cash prizes won in Fast Draw events and of course no one in SASS is winning prize money. How many shooters, because of their success in Fast Draw, are making a living endorsing products and giving lessons or putting on Fast Draw schools plus their prize money, vs the number of SASS shooters who appear to be earning theirs by doing the same, minus making money through cash prizes. Both groups would also have expenses to consider too. Smokin Gator

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I think anybody wanting to shoot for money should start an organization for that purpose and have at it. Don't come to an organization that is fine the way it is without money and try to change it. I have heard this thinking before and it seems to come up now and again. If enough of y'all want to shoot for money then get together and start another club and have at it. Seems enough of y'all have the capital to start it up.

 

Leave the prize money out of SASS, we have grown and prospered without prize money thus far. I think we will continue to do so without it.

 

Blue Wolf

 

+1 !!!!!!

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The thing about introducing money isn't that it will turn otherwise friendly folks into jerks. It's that it attracts the jerks that otherwise wouldn't participate.

 

 

Just like the ones that I met in a previous "sport" that I competed for 10 years where the "gawd squad" used $6,000.00 pistols

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Nobody makes a living in any shooting sport with prize money that I know of. There are some people who are sponsored by gun manufacturers like Glock and they get paid to go shoot.

 

I have met jerks in SASS too so Doc Shapiro's theory of them not being involved in CAS because of no prize money isn't correct.

 

The number of matches put on at Cowtown where prize money was given out is irrelevant. It was done successfully.

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Nobody makes a living in any shooting sport with prize money that I know of. There are some people who are sponsored by gun manufacturers like Glock and they get paid to go shoot.

 

I have met jerks in SASS too so Doc Shapiro's theory of them not being involved in CAS because of no prize money isn't correct.

 

The number of matches put on at Cowtown where prize money was given out is irrelevant. It was done successfully.

 

 

If it was really successful. Why are they not still doing it now??

How come Fast Draw did not take off like SASS?? If it has been around longer.

And it is so great. Why has it not done as well??

 

 

The only time we hear from you is when you throw up Fast Draw.

If you like fast draw. That's great. Glad you do. Sounds like a great place for you.

 

Guess I am one of those jerks. But then it takes one to??? Well. You get the picture. :ph34r:

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A.A. this is why I hardly ever get on the SASS Wire. Too many fools.

 

:P:lol: I guess that is going to bother me the rest of the next few seconds. :unsure:

 

Guess that is what keeps you from SASS matches also. As it takes more than one fast shot.

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Belittling an opponent by name calling is sign of a weak argument.

 

Miss Allie, for the life of me I can not see where KS called anyone a name. Just made the reference "too many fools." Me thinks some people read it the wrong way. What ya think?

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True, look here.

 

 

 

 

Possum and RB Kid,

 

We already have cheaters. So, I agree that adding $ to the prestige of winning those folks need would be detrimental to SASS.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Outa the mouths of babes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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the day they make targets that count hits and misses ..........then this could work .......till then no way

 

even then there is a TO factor .......so no ........I get what yer sayin in the original post .......and yeah in a perfect world that may work

 

but ........

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"As I said in the beginning fast draw has been giving away cash since 1955. What we have now is people shooting so much they get a bit faster, then they get endorsements and their picture in ads, or they start selling guns and lessons. Its a profession for them."

 

"Nobody makes a living in any shooting sport with prize money that I know of. There are some people who are sponsored by gun manufacturers like Glock and they get paid to go shoot profession for them."

 

Your first statement above seems to indicate that there are fast draw shooters who in addition to prize money, not only prize money, have enough endorsements,paid lessons and gun selling that it is a "profession" for them. How many of them fall into this category vs SASS shooters with similar success. Smokin Gator

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Kid Shane,

When's the last time you actually went to a CAS match?

 

Are you a top CAS shooter? You talk of so many hours of practice to become a top CFD participant, but do you think it takes less to get to the top of CAS? I know you have been a top fast draw competitor, but I don't remember ever hearing of your CAS domination.

 

You talk of venders fees, but NO annual matches in these parts charge venders anything to set up.

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We all know that money will never be used in this game as a payout for doing good. The powers to be will never allow it, but we can have a good discussion about the merits of it happening anyways.

 

One reason it wouldn't be, is the scoring system that we have. Nobody would put up their hard earned money to have the end result of the score made by a TO and three counters. Too much chance for human error. When money is on the line, there is no room for human error, or maybe it wasn't an error, but the call went in favor of the TO's buddy. This does happen, believe it or not.

 

The only way to score if money was involved would be to have targets that were electronically monitored, or knockdowns for everything. No need for counters, so the human element would be eliminated there. Just a timer operator to start the clock and record the time, which would be on display on a big screen for all to view.

 

Thee are some of the reasons it will never be allowed on a large scale, beside the fact that the majority of shooters don't want it. Even tho they have never tried it in regards to the way that some successful target shooting games operate.

 

Dat's my story and I'm sticking to it. Nothing wrong with a good uneducated discussion tho.

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You talk of venders fees, but NO annual matches in these parts charge venders anything to set up.

 

 

Yep. The only place I have heard of a vendor fee. (and I am a vendor) Is at EOT and WR. One reason I went to

EOT. BUT. Did not vend.

 

Most are just glad you are there and look at you as a asset to the match.

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We all know that money will never be used in this game as a payout for doing good. The powers to be will never allow it, but we can have a good discussion about the merits of it happening anyways.

 

One reason it wouldn't be, is the scoring system that we have. Nobody would put up their hard earned money to have the end result of the score made by a TO and three counters. Too much chance for human error. When money is on the line, there is no room for human error, or maybe it wasn't an error, but the call went in favor of the TO's buddy. This does happen, believe it or not.

 

The only way to score if money was involved would be to have targets that were electronically monitored, or knockdowns for everything. No need for counters, so the human element would be eliminated there. Just a timer operator to start the clock and record the time, which would be on display on a big screen for all to view.

 

Thee are some of the reasons it will never be allowed on a large scale, beside the fact that the majority of shooters don't want it. Even tho they have never tried it in regards to the way that some successful target shooting games operate.

 

Dat's my story and I'm sticking to it. Nothing wrong with a good uneducated discussion tho.

 

Jacknife, your second paragraph tells the main reason of why SASS is not and should not ever be played for cash. When cash is involved, some folks seem to lose their integrity. Doesn't matter whether it is .50 or 50.00. After all, you (probably) and I have both watched folks lose their integity over trinkets and ribbons.

 

I will never discount discussion. Discussion are where ideas, some good and some bad, originate.

 

CS

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After all, you (probably) and I have both watched folks lose their integity over trinkets and ribbons.

 

CS

 

Yep, more than once. That is why nobody I don't think, would wanna wager their money when there is too much chance for human error in the scoring. If ya wanna call it "error".

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"As I said in the beginning fast draw has been giving away cash since 1955. What we have now is people shooting so much they get a bit faster, then they get endorsements and their picture in ads, or they start selling guns and lessons. Its a profession for them."

 

"Nobody makes a living in any shooting sport with prize money that I know of. There are some people who are sponsored by gun manufacturers like Glock and they get paid to go shoot profession for them."

 

Your first statement above seems to indicate that there are fast draw shooters who in addition to prize money, not only prize money, have enough endorsements,paid lessons and gun selling that it is a "profession" for them. How many of them fall into this category vs SASS shooters with similar success. Smokin Gator

 

No I was talking about SASS. Evil Roy, etc.

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To get to the top level of fast draw competition takes a lot of practice, many spend years to get to the top. There are not many people capable of competing against the best in fast draw. Even Evil Roy can't do it, his words not mine.

SASS is a purely amateur sport right? Some people make a lot of money shooting CAS but you and most others aren't in that group.

What? You think Champions in SASS are born over-night? Get real. Like music, acting, or any number of things, "over-night sensations" are few and far between.

Nope, but then I haven't tried. And no, "some people" don't "make a lot of SHOOTING CAS." They make a living, or augment another income thru endeavors related to CAS... but not from the SHOOTING. There are not many people capable of competing against the best in CAS, either. Fast Draw rose, peaked and has waned. It has also enjoyed a resurgence in recent years. That's a good thing. I know more than one fast draw artist that has participated in CAS. Two which were quite good at Fast Draw. (Regardless of your previously stated opinions). Two have even made a living thru their shooting... not necessarily even while competing in Fast Draw, but in demonstrations, training and gunsmithing particular to that sport, CAS and even other shooting disciplines. Similar to folks we could both name in CAS.

 

CAS is an amateur game/sport/hobby. The fact that some folks make their living or a part of their living from being involved, is quite immaterial as to whether CAS offers prize money. There are whole legions of folks that make money off other amateur sports/games/hobbies. Take league bowling; amateur leagues. Yep, folks make money off the involvement of Wednesday nite bowlers... the alley, the guy that supplies equipment, from shoes, bags, balls, towels, and even the gas companies asthey drive to and from the bowling alley. Does that necessarily mean that amatuer leagues should forgo their strict amatuer status and offer cash prizes?

 

Which brings us to what some of us find important in life. Wife, kids and family mean more than fame and potential fortune (if that could be had on the {insert former amatuer sport here} tour)... As it does to probably 95% of CAS shooters. Who are, more'n likely in mid to late career, looking forward to retirement from the "rat race" and desire an outlet for their competitive juices... and have some interest in old west guns and history. Just as it probably does for the majority of Fast Draw participants. CAS is that enjoyable outlet for our competitive spirit, no matter how it appears to others, our success is ours to measure and determine if it meets our needs. No one else's measure counts. In fact, that personal satisfaction quotient is strictly what drives just about every CAS competitor.

 

Somewhere along the line, I missed that you'd become a National Champion Fast Draw shooter. Congratulations. I rarely go into the Saloon, but I'll hoist one to your success. Denigrating another sport does nothing to inspire respect for yours. A real champion would... or maybe I should say, should be an ambassador to other sports. I once thought about trying Cowboy Fast Draw... silly me. After reading what you have to say about how difficult it is, I probably couldn't get my gun out of the holster.

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What? You think Champions in SASS are born over-night? Get real. Like music, acting, or any number of things, "over-night sensations" are few and far between.

Nope, but then I haven't tried. And no, "some people" don't "make a lot of SHOOTING CAS." They make a living, or augment another income thru endeavors related to CAS... but not from the SHOOTING. There are not many people capable of competing against the best in CAS, either. Fast Draw rose, peaked and has waned. It has also enjoyed a resurgence in recent years. That's a good thing. I know more than one fast draw artist that has participated in CAS. Two which were quite good at Fast Draw. (Regardless of your previously stated opinions). Two have even made a living thru their shooting... not necessarily even while competing in Fast Draw, but in demonstrations, training and gunsmithing particular to that sport, CAS and even other shooting disciplines. Similar to folks we could both name in CAS.

 

CAS is an amateur game/sport/hobby. The fact that some folks make their living or a part of their living from being involved, is quite immaterial as to whether CAS offers prize money. There are whole legions of folks that make money off other amateur sports/games/hobbies. Take league bowling; amateur leagues. Yep, folks make money off the involvement of Wednesday nite bowlers... the alley, the guy that supplies equipment, from shoes, bags, balls, towels, and even the gas companies asthey drive to and from the bowling alley. Does that necessarily mean that amatuer leagues should forgo their strict amatuer status and offer cash prizes?

 

Which brings us to what some of us find important in life. Wife, kids and family mean more than fame and potential fortune (if that could be had on the {insert former amatuer sport here} tour)... As it does to probably 95% of CAS shooters. Who are, more'n likely in mid to late career, looking forward to retirement from the "rat race" and desire an outlet for their competitive juices... and have some interest in old west guns and history. Just as it probably does for the majority of Fast Draw participants. CAS is that enjoyable outlet for our competitive spirit, no matter how it appears to others, our success is ours to measure and determine if it meets our needs. No one else's measure counts. In fact, that personal satisfaction quotient is strictly what drives just about every CAS competitor.

 

Somewhere along the line, I missed that you'd become a National Champion Fast Draw shooter. Congratulations. I rarely go into the Saloon, but I'll hoist one to your success. Denigrating another sport does nothing to inspire respect for yours. A real champion would... or maybe I should say, should be an ambassador to other sports. I once thought about trying Cowboy Fast Draw... silly me. After reading what you have to say about how difficult it is, I probably couldn't get my gun out of the holster.

 

 

Well said Griff.

 

JEL

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Monetary prizes are a great way to have less skilled subsidise those at the top.

The fact SASS does not use monetary awards is a big reason why I am in the game

 

 

I agree 100%!!!! That is why I compete in SASS. No monetary awards!

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Miss Allie, for the life of me I can not see where KS called anyone a name. Just made the reference "too many fools." Me thinks some people read it the wrong way. What ya think?

 

 

Howdy Jacknife,

Really? :wacko: I bet you have a tough time with those connect-the-dot games, too. Dontcha. :lol:

 

Don't mind ol' Kid Shane, he just comes here to practice his Dale Carnegie "How to Win Friends and Influence People" Skills :wacko:

Says the dishonest old fool gunsmiith from Texas. :)

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I wish people would stop thinking up ways to spend my money without any benefit to me.

 

Count me in the "NO WAY" column.

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