Ruff Cobb Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Camp Town Lady was just filling out applications & writing a check for a match that we were really anticipating attending. She noticed that the available categories did not include Senior Duelist & she called to inquire as to whether this was an oversite. It was not, the category was not offered. I am fully aware of the prevailing SASS wire opinions that there are too many categories, there is a need to eliminate classes, & elimination of categories is at the whim of match directors & their clubs. I have no issue with these opinions nor do I have any issue with shooting local matches in any category, one or two handed. My conflict is whether to spend a considerable sum in travel, motels, meals, & match fees to compete in another category. I'll be 70 this year & I know darn well that my abilities aren't what they were 15 years ago. I am really thinking of sending my $ in another direction & on a match that recognizes my category. The reason for this post is not to vent but to start people thinking & discussing this issue. I am aware of the cost factor for furnishing awards for the lesser populated classes. In my opinion a computer printed certificate for the thin classes would suffice, just anounce that instead of a tin cup the award will be paper & let it go. We're not in this for the quality of the trophy but if I'm going to spend to compete I'd like to do in in my own category. Thanks for the read. Ruff Cobb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I wouldn't pay $1000.00 to go to a match that did offer "my" category. But that is strictly about the money and a busy life right now. Frankly, for me, shooting this game is not about winning my category. Don't get me wrong, I want to do as well as I can, but I shoot against myself more than others in my category and I compare my performance against the whole field, not just "my" category. Now, if I was retired and well off, I would have no issue paying $1000.00 or more to go to a match that didn't offer "my" category if the people were fun, the stages were interesting and the location was one I wanted to visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Bet that club did offer Duelist, huh? LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Howdy RC; I understand what you are talking about... except for your comment about abilities not being what they were 15 yrs ago. My abilities are just as bad as they were 15 yrs ago! As for spending a $1,000 to attend a match that didn't have the category that you wanted that is something that only you can answer for yourself.. for me... it would depend upon how bad I wanted to attend the match. In my "Old Age".. I don't ANYTHING that I don't want to do unless I have to. If a match does NOT offer me the enjoyment that I want, at a price that I am willing to pay, then I DON'T GO. I have altered my shooting schedule the last two years to provide me with the Fun and enjoyment that I want out of life. My best friend... My wife, enjoys going to certain cowboy matches more than others. I've always tried to do my best to support those who support me (our annual match), but at this point in my life... I'm doing what I want. In some cases,that means that we will go on a Cruise rather than travel across the country and attend a match that really doesn't give me what I want.... I've found some matches in Pacific NW that offer SENIOR FC!... now that's catering to my wants.. and they will get my business. So to finalize this long ramble..... It's your money, your time, and your life... vote with your feet and go where they will give you what you want. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Drifter SASS#68560 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The way I see it, it all comes down to the people there and the quality of the match they are putting on. I'd rather shoot a fun match with the people I enjoy spending time with rather than shoot "frontier cartridge left handed duelist" or something. I know thats a crazy request unlike senior duelist, but just making my point. A fun shoot is a fun shoot regardless of how good or bad someone may shoot it. Besides most the "senior duelist" boys down here in Florida can take on them younger duelist boys any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel B Carpenter Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Depends on the match, if you really really want to go - people, stages, location it not, find another match Samuel B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 No ~ that's a lot of money for me to fork over at this time....my budget is up to $700 per big match (state & regional) and they do have my category to shoot. So it's better money there.... BUT Heck Yes ~ If $1K was a drop in the bucket (just to meet folks and be with friends would be a thrill in itself) GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I wouldn't pay $1000.00 to go to a match that did offer "my" category. But that is strictly about the money and a busy life right now. Frankly, for me, shooting this game is not about winning my category. Don't get me wrong, I want to do as well as I can, but I shoot against myself more than others in my category and I compare my performance against the whole field, not just "my" category. Now, if I was retired and well off, I would have no issue paying $1000.00 or more to go to a match that didn't offer "my" category if the people were fun, the stages were interesting and the location was one I wanted to visit. thanks Prof! i couldnt have said it better myself. cc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Bottom line is…..you as a shooter have the choice. No one can make up your mind for you. I do know that a match director has many things to consider and somewhere towards the top should be. What is best for our club? Finances, time, space, etc. If you shoot one of the “thin” classes (good one I hadn’t heard that before) and are set on doing so, then don’t go. Main thing for me is to have fun. RCD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ruff Cobb, I remember you from EOT. I will say this, your competitive, just as I am, maybe more. Your going for that competition, in that catagory, against your peers. $1000 just to hang around the range and not shoot in a SASS catagory, and your already miffed about it? I think you answered it yourself. Vote with your feet! Senior Duelist is one of the best catagorys going, why they do not have it.......well, that is a board of directors decision. Vote with your feet! Oklahoma Dee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patagonia Pete Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 IMHO … I don’t think “you” (as an individual) would have a problem competing successfully in any category you decided to shoot … but … Sometimes things (that are a real deviation from “normal” expectations) seem to happen at some matches for unknown reasons (and it seems to me that this happens a “lot” these days … sigh …). It’s probably better not to know exactly why … as it may reveal our worst fears (that the deviation might be a “good ol boy” maneuver for match advantage) … or … just an oversight … that after being noticed … the match management simply decided not to correct (as they feel they are too far along to deal with it … and still be able to be fair to everyone … without causing a lot of headaches). For whatever reason … if you can’t get a reasonable explanation (from match management) … sufficient to make “you” feel right about it … then … “don’t attend”. Having something like this (category selection … unique target type/scoring … whatever) … hanging over your head will weigh heavy and you just won’t have a good time or likely perform as well as you might otherwise (you will be thinking the whole time that perhaps … that was why they did it in the first place). Not attending … is at least a means to demonstrate to the match management that it is something that is important to you (as a paying customer). If others are of a like mindset then they will have something to talk about when they critique their performance after the match and plan for the next one. If “you” are the only one that felt strongly about the issue then they will have a big laugh and you will have to find out if you are really falling out of touch with the game or if this is a club/match with people who are “really really” different (and you can assure yourself that “not” attending any of their functions is the best course of action to maintain your piece of mind and enjoyment of the game). With (all) that being said … screw’em … I wouldn’t go!! … uh … IMHO anyhow … Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hi Ruff, My decision to go to a match has nothing to do with categories. There are many age-based I could transfer to from LS. Currently, my primary critera is whether I can get there in less than a day and will many people I want to see be there. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hey Ruff. I agree with Snakebite. You've earned the right to do what you want...as long as the boss of the house says it's OK....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hey Ruff. I agree with Snakebite. You've earned the right to do what you want...as long as the boss of the house says it's OK....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruff Cobb Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 I will add a few thoughts from my perspective. I really commend this club for taking the long view & advising potential customers beforehand that the category will not be furnished. I am not upset about the elimination of the category & I think we will probably be seeing more of this. For example a close friend wanted to sign up his 9 year old grand daughter in the Buckaroo clas at an Founder's Ranch match & was told she'd have to shoot with the Juniors. He elected not to try to explain this to a 9 year old & attended another match. This sport has always been fuzzy around the edges concerning competition aspects & opinions are as many as there are members. I know it seems like the majority of people who post here claim to be in it for fun & not competition. However I've never seen a shooter at a match who refused to be started by a timer because they were just there for the fun & fun can be described as the Professor stated, seeing how you match up against your peers. I am retired & on a fixed income & 1K is a very considerable amount for us to spend on a match but this is not the over riding issue, I guess you could say it's more like the principal & where we're heading as a sport in the future. In the last TG meeting a proposal was on the floor to eliminate the GD category & the bait was the establishment of FCGF. It failed because eliminating categories is like un-ringing a bell unless it was Modern. I'm still mulling attending this match and the process does not include any consideration of a "class win" but rather I'm wondering if I'm being an enabler in the elimination of classes & where this is going. It could somebody else's sacred ox that gets gored in the future and the motive might not be just the cost of the tin cup or piece of paper. Again I do commend the club for the class to put this up front rather than kick your class after arrival. Regards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I understand just what you’re saying. Last year at a nameless regional the powers to be decided to give awards for the warmup match, however decided to award only 49er and younger. So 1st ,2nd ,3rd and so forth were awarded and the assembled group clapped and that was it. The warmup match overall winner, a Senior was ignored, is it a big deal, no it isn’t, make you feel bad, you bet. Another time another match the clean shooters were ignored again big deal, no it’s not, make you feel bad, you bet. My money goes just so far to drag my trailer to a regional I’m spending upward of $700 just on fuel. Choices therefore go to matches that think though what they are doing and find ways to let the under populated categories have their moment in the sun. It isn’t the award for the money I spend I could build a trophy case and populate it with beautiful trophies without ever having to endure the sun and cold, wind and rain. It’s the recognition of effort in whatever form it takes, being able to sit with your friends beverage in hand and enjoy the reward of your endeavors. Like the regional above saying OH, you’re a senior, silver senior or elder statesman so you’re not important to us. Makes me say I can spend that money somewhere else. This is just my opinion and opinions follow many forms, how else can you explain the elite population of Washington D.C. Semper Fi 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ruff Cobb, I understand what you are saying. I am having to change my catagory to attend Winter Range, I love the shoot and so I do this. Thay are not offering Ladies FCGF or mens for that matter so I am shooting Ladies FCD. I would rather shoot GF but I want to shoot Black more. So I am having to make that concession at most matches. But for me I would rather go and shoot with my friends and the friends I have not met yet. But yours is different it is an age differnece so that may make more of a difference to me if mine was as well. See you again soon. We shot together last year but can't remember where. Sorry! Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If it's a SASS sanctioned match IMO they are obligated to recognize all SASS sanctioned categories or they shouldn't be allowed to advertise that it is a SASS sanctioned match. If they don't recognize the category I ordinarily shoot in, I wouldn't go. I've already made this known to our Territorial Governor and State and Regional Match Directors. When they start losing even more members/participants than they are already losing maybe they'll smarten' up (or go bust). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyandot Jim Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hey R C I know where you are coming from. At most of the bigger matches, think more dollars, I shoot Frontiersman. Have gotten to the match and find out they don't have enough for the category. Not my fault they don't have enough Frontiersman. So now I have to shoot Old Armies in another Category. Just not right. Yea and I go to try and win MY CATEGORY. Wyandot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hi Cobb, I agree so much with what you, Reb, and others are saying. It IS definitely getting more and more expensive to attend matches so one has to weigh hard just which one. When you are established and enjoy shooting a certain category then by jingoes to me that is a major factor in my decision to make a shoot. What I see odd about your particular situation is the elimnation of a major senior category. Maybe not at the particular match in question, but SENIOR (and above) is where I see the sport at right now. That is were a big percentage of the participation is, and if not there at that match,it will be. If for no other reason, shooters your and my age are the retired or semi-retired ones who can find the time to make multiple 3+ day shoots but with maybe more time than a younger shooter, financing the whole ticket still becomes the biggist decision maker so as others have mentioned we weigh the package aganist FUN. You have to be able to walk away satified with the return. Look forward to seeing you at Winter Range. bb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Without going on a rant, for the life of me I can't understand why a match would not offer every SASS category and to me that doesn't mean that a certain number need to sign up for that category. If it's a SASS category, then offer it. I hate to use the old "we ain't winning a Cadillac" thing, but dang, until a match starts giving away Cadillacs ...then offer the category. And to answer the OP directly, not just no, but H-E double toothpicks NO. Double toothpicks...me trying to be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackrabbit Joe #414 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Howdy Ruff Cobb & Camptown Lady: Been awhile and understand what your feelings are on the categories. We do honor Senior Duelist within our club and also at our yearly match Railhead held in Williams Arizona being June 28th thru July 1st, 2012. Now on another category which is Elder Statesman Duelist 70+, we do honor that at our club matches. Hope maybe to have it added next year to the Railhead match. Please note our club is: Arizona Cowboy Shooters Assn. We have our matches at Ben Avery Range where Winter Range is held. Well any way my friend you and yours are welcome to join us at our matches any time. Take care and see you on the range: Jackrabbit & Sly Puppy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Reckon I'm in a different ballpark here.. There's no way I'd spend $1000 to go to (probably) any match Just ain't in my budget I guess if I figured gas, motel, ammo, entry, food.. might be around $5-$600 fer a 3 day match.. But I reckon to answer yer question.. Wouldn't spend that if it didn't support my catagory.. Rance Thinkin' just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 NO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ruff Cobb, as I have gotten older and shot a lot of major matches all over the western part of the US, we find some we like and others we do not. Sometimes it is the match itself, other times it is the location or time of year that is an issue. We usually give the large matches two chances to meet our expectations. As a result we spend our dollars at matches we enjoy and avoid the others. Interesting many of our friends do the same and the matches in the avoid category seem to line up pretty well. As far as spending $1000 attending a big match that as you know if very easy. Going to a match you are upset with before it starts does not sound like fun and that is why we do it, for the fun. Hope it works out for you whatever you decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal May Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 IMHO if categories are permitted to be dropped then the 'spirit of the game' is not being upheld. A SASS sanctioned match should contain all SASS categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyandot Jim Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Without going on a rant, for the life of me I can't understand why a match would not offer every SASS category and to me that doesn't mean that a certain number need to sign up for that category. If it's a SASS category, then offer it. I hate to use the old "we ain't winning a Cadillac" thing, but dang, until a match starts giving away Cadillacs ...then offer the category. And to answer the OP directly, not just no, but H-E double toothpicks NO. Double toothpicks...me trying to be nice. Yep agree 100%. They will advertize all SASS Rules apply. Yea right except for the important one. Wyandot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Been there, done that, had fun anyway. My family and I have attended Last Stand in Florida since 2007, an AWESOME MATCH by the way! Traveling from Maryland, with Hotel, Gas, Food, Match Fees, etc, we easily cross the $1K mark for that match. We are extremely fortunate to live within driving distance of both our State Match and the NE Regional and Last Stand is the only match we attend that requires us to stay in a hotel so we can justify spending the money once per year. For the last three years, I have been shooting FCGF. Since FCGF is not an "Official" SASS category, there is no requirement to offer that category and Last Stand has chosen not to in the past. Consequently, I have defaulted to shooting in the GF category, but I still use BP! I am not, nor am I ever likely to be, competitive in any category but FCGF IS MY CATEGORY; IT IS ALL I EVER SHOOT! My wife has the same problem at some matches, not Last Stand, as not all matches offer LFCD and it is all she ever shoots. There seems to be two primary reasons why matches do not offer certain categories. One is the notion that receiving an award for an under-populated category diminishes the value of the award for the others. My opinion on this is Bull-Hockey! Anyone can sign up for any category for which they are eligible, at any match, and potentially win the award. If someone wants an award that bad, then they should sign up for a thin category and win it. No one is stopping them but, if the match fails to offer the category, then those categories will never grow. When my wife first started shooting LFCD, she was often the only competitor at many matches but lately, her category has had several new competitors. Whither they are there because they only want the award or because that is what they want to do, does not matter. The growth in the category would never have happened if the category was not offered. The second reason, and what I think creates the biggest problem for the Match Directors, is the cost of awards and the ability to determine, far enough in advance, which categories will be populated so that the awards can be ordered in time. Buying an expensive award for a category where no one competes is a waste of money that could be used in better ways by the club. In my opinion, the solution to this dilemma is just a spin on what is already being done. Several of the big matches we attend specify a minimum number of competitors for the category to be recognized. Fine, but instead of that, how about offering all of the categories, but set a deadline for determining awards and set a minimum for determining the award level. If a category exceeds the minimum by the deadline, then that category will be awarded the Trophy, Buckle, Plaque, etc. If by the deadline the category does not hit the minimum, then it will still be "Recognized", but the award will be a certificate or ribbon. It solves all of the issues and lets everyone play the game the way they want. While I would love to win my category, and walk away with a bronze trophy like the one they give out at Winter Range (Hey, we are Dreamin' Here!) what I really want is to know how I did against the others at the match, shooting under the same conditions as I did. At Last Stand 2012, I came in 23 out of 25 Gunfighters. What I would really like to know is how many of the other GF's were playing FCGF along with me. It would not have changed the outcome, I was going to get my behind handed to me by Preacherman, Most Wanted, Tex and 20 others anyway, but it would have made the match more satisfying to know that what I was doing was being recognized and how I did against (if I may be so bold) my Peers. Ultimately, whither you decide to spend the money or not, depends on you. I will continue to go to Last Stand (I know it was the Last-Last Stand ) or what ever the new Florida State Match is because it has been a Great Match with Great Stages and Great People and I have had a Great Time and That is what is really important! Dogmeat Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ruff Cobb, Ive shot with you and seen you shoot. I would not attend a match if, I were interested in winning my category and capable of winning my category, but my category was not offered. You are certainly capable of winning your category and will even spank a bunch of younger shooters wherever you shoot. You don't want a prize, you want recognition of your skill, practice, dedication, and personal performance. You deserve it as well. I don't believe that any match really has a financial problem awarding $5.00 prizes to shooters. I know the numbers add up, but that is really a fallacious argument. Match fees of $75.00 up to $150.00 (each) might be part of what you are paying out of that $1,000.00. 3- or 6 $5.00 prizes to open up a category or two adds up to a maximum of $30.00 to go three deep with the prizes. If the match fee went up $5.00 would it really chase any shooters away? To Match directors: If you think you have to cut categories somewhere to make the awards ceremony manageable . . . rethink your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruff Cobb Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 First I'd like to thank everybody for their thoughts on this issue. I see many of my friends have posted & this means a bunch. I've thought about this for the last 24 hours or so & have decided that this would be about like paying to go to a party where I wasn't invited. It's not the $$, time, or travel. It's not about competing in another class. For me it's not about the awards. I think if I paid & attended this match I'd feel like the guy in Animal House getting his fanny paddled & saying "thank you sir, may I have another?" I would really be interested in hearing a representative of the Club explain their reasoning but I'd be willing to wager it consists of two elements, 1. awards cost $$ & less awards = better bottom line, & 2. SASS provides this lattitude. Again I'd say I'm not angry but just really dissapointed. Many thanks to all who have contributed their thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Without going on a rant, for the life of me I can't understand why a match would not offer every SASS category and to me that doesn't mean that a certain number need to sign up for that category. If it's a SASS category, then offer it. I hate to use the old "we ain't winning a Cadillac" thing, but dang, until a match starts giving away Cadillacs ...then offer the category. And to answer the OP directly, not just no, but H-E double toothpicks NO. Double toothpicks...me trying to be nice. I'm with you Buck. When I have laid out a $150 entry fee to attend a match then I feel I have the right to expect my SASS approved category should be offered and I will be awarded my $3 badge proving I won it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ruff I would not attend a major where you were not given the opportunity to "blow my doors off" in SD. It is the only class I have ever shot because I was already 60 when I started and just never did see the point of holding a six gun with two hands. My wife is a new shooter and has never shot a major. As a LSD, she has never come in lower than 2nd. I can't even remember when that other woman showed up. She does, however, accept her class winners ribbon as a badge of pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wire Paladin # 5954 L Regulator Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 R.C., I wouldn't waste my time at shoot that didn,t offer my chosen category. See you at WR-2012. Paladin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'm with you Buck. When I have laid out a $150 entry fee to attend a match then I feel I have the right to expect my SASS approved category should be offered and I will be awarded my $3 badge proving I won it. i think you mean bought it. R.C., I wouldn't waste my time at shoot that didn,t offer my chosen category. See you at WR-2012. Paladin just another example of me, me, me. praise me, call my name..... we choose the matches we attend, based on challenge, how well it's run, and whose company we'll get to enjoy and would never consider a weekend spent that way a waste of time. FLAME AWAY CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 If the category (SASS approved) is not offered I will not go to the match regardless of cost. I look at shooting the same as going to a movie. I'm not paying $25-30 for a movie if it is not the type I want to see. The best advice the Judge told me was vote with your feet. Match Directors need to think about economics. I mean who would not pay out $25 to make a $100? I think there is a total of 32 SASS approved categories. If a match offers every category and pays $75 for each category's trophy that's $2400. Now if that match averages 200 shooters at $85 (match fee) that's $17000. Therefore you have spent about 14% on trophies. To save money it is decided to not offer 5 categories and this causes 10 shooters to not shoot the match. Now 5X $75 equals $375 and 10X $85 equals $850. This means you lost almost 53% of what you would have made. Maybe now this will ring a bell with the powers that be. As has been stated before "This is the Entertainment Business" treat your matches as such and the club prospers, don't it will die. Regards, Blue Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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